Vile Siren Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Hey everyone I am not to sure if this question belongs here but I got a questions. Why is there so much hate towards the Raven Guard HH books(Deliverance Lost, Raven's Flight and Ravenlord )? I only hear and read negativity on these books and I want to know why/how they are so bad or are they just considered not good as some of the other books? I am not asking this to cause any negativity, I was thinking of doing a loyalist force of RG and I like to read books for inspiration but I also don't want to waste money on bad reading material. Any help would be greatly appreciated, Thanks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffTibbetts Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I read Deliverance and I didn't think it was terrible. I guess I haven't heard much hate, but I also haven't read the other two. I admit it wasn't my fave but playing a RG successor myself it did give me some insight into the Raven Guard's origins and the nature of the primarch. I think you should read them anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vile Siren Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 Thanks for the reply! Yeah I am thinking about reading them anyway RG seem pretty awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffTibbetts Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I really like their stealth tactics and their more secular/practical attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 There's an easy way to simulate the experience of reading Deliverance Lost without paying for the book: 1. Open a door. 2. Place one hand against the frame, take hold of the doorknob with the other. 3.Slam the door on your hand as hard as you can, open it, then slam it on your hand again. Repeat the process 5 times. There! Now you have the experience of reading DL in a fraction of the time it would take to slog through the novel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artein Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 There's an easy way to simulate the experience of reading Deliverance Lost without paying for the book: 1. Open a door. 2. Place one hand against the frame, take hold of the doorknob with the other. 3.Slam the door on your hand as hard as you can, open it, then slam it on your hand again. Repeat the process 5 times. There! Now you have the experience of reading DL in a fraction of the time it would take to slog through the novel. I am Alpharius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrafficCustodes Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I feel like two simultaneous threads where we argue about Deliverance Lost is too much, so... yeah. I just want to restate that not everyone shares Wade's opinion on DL. My advice to the OP: The best investment you could make is the Forge World book 'Extinction'. In-depth background and flavour for the Raven Guard Legion, an account of their actions in the Great Crusade, what they did during/after the Dropsite Massacre. (Stuff on Imperial Fists, Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors too, if you like those guys). And if you're thinking of a 30K Raven Guard army, this has information on their Legion-specific units and special rules for fielding an RG force. It might not be much use for 40K, but you will certainly get some painting/modelling ideas. I own 'Deliverance Lost' and 'Ravenlord', I like them quite a bit, but you will probably be better off with the Forge World one. It is expensive, but the reception to it has been strongly positive, whereas Gav's Raven Guard stories seem near-universally reviled... and I don't think anyone else has ever really dealt with the Raven Guard in the Heresy. As for wasting money, it probably won't be too expensive to pick up a used 'Deliverance Lost' paperback. The limited edition novellas... skip 'em. Wait for them to come out as ebooks. People don't seem to mind 'The Raven's Flight' (detailing Corax's escape from Isstvan) as much. I recommend reading or listening to that one first, and seeing how you like it. Oh, and that brief bit in 'The First Heretic' where the Raven Guard and Word Bearers clash on Isstvan V is cool. If you haven't read that book already, pick it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffTibbetts Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Heck, I found mine in the library and read it for free. The nice thing about HH books is they're quick reads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrafficCustodes Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Well... I took a LONG time to finish 'Vulkan Lives'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vile Siren Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 Alright sweet deal! Sounds like I may be better with the FW books but if I get a chance check out some of the HH books then ill take a look over them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I actually enjoyed them all - including Ravenlord, which often gets a bad press, and I've messaged Gav to say as much. I can't, truthfully, understand all the hate for most of his recent work on the Raven Guard, and it represents the best loyalist chapter, so much be good! Ravenlord especially (as I've just finished reading it), was great - despite: What felt like a bit of a cop-out ending, although it was a surprise And I felt it could've been a whole, much longer novel. The comparisons between the gene splicing and augmentation between legions was great: but I either wanted a battle scene between both of those explored more fully, or to bring them into the fold. The difficultly in reconciling whether they could be allowed to live, and the implications for their own legion, was a nice touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 I would avoid Ravenlord for the bad writing, especially the dialogue. None of the characters actually sounded like who they were supposed to be, especially Corax. It really just felt like a book about entirely different people who happened to share the same name and titles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Probably a fair comment. Brann was about right, although I can definitely see that criticism across others. Could've been so much more, fleshed out more entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of the Raven Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 I've not read Deliverance and don't intend to, but besides claims that Corax left his brain somewhere at Isstvan V, I'd say the main problem is a retcon. Before, according to the Index Astartes, Corax chose to risk his legion's present and future to help protect the Imperium in its hour of need by using forbidden, unstable means to replace his losses, which led to countless monsters whom Corax decided to mercy kill after the traitors lost at Terra before he decided to leave for the Eye of Terror to redeem himself by throwing himself at whatever enemy he could find until he died. Now, Corax gets hold of one of the Emperor's secret means to grow better, faster, stronger marines whom He never used before because reasons. All goes well until MOTHERLOVING ALPHA LEGIONNAIRES IN MY MOTHERLOVING RAVENSPIRE and Omegon corrupts the process with one hand, twirls his curly moustache with the other, runs off with the six million dollar marine-making secret with a third and pet his white cat with a fourth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrafficCustodes Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 At this point it seems possible Gav's continuation of the Raven Guard story might be in Novellas exclusively. Considering the fairly poisonous response I've seen (not least on these forums) Black Library would be painting a target on their backs to give Gav another full length Heresy novel, it wouldn't surprise me if they just gave him 2 or 3 more novellas to tell the rest of the arc. So completists, or people like myself or Chaeron who actually don't mind these stories, can buy them, but most people can just ignore them or read a simplified/insulting synopsis online. I think the Heresy is going to have a lot more retcons before it's done. It's understandable that people are upset when the old Index Astartes stuff is contradicted - those were great, I liked them a lot. However, some of us like the new version of events just as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 I think some people would've preferred a whole Raven Guard novel spanning what would otherwise realistically be three Ltd Novellas, because it's easier to ignore as part of the corpus, if they choose. Mind you, I never thought Deliverance Lost was wholly terrible, but it has been awhile since I've read it. I just wish the monsters he creates arc was continually explored in a greater depth than has been offered. Lots is only really surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 For me it's not so much that Delieverance Lost is bad, it isn't. But the marines don't feel like Raven Guard, they just feel like generic space marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrafficCustodes Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 I agree that Gav didn't make much headway in establishing the Legion's character. And the traits he did give the Marines, like stoicism and austerity, can easily come across as the Raven Guard being just dull and boring. Part of this issue might be that they barely fight anyone in that whole book. I don't know if we can 'know' a Legion too well without seeing them fight things... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Just needs George Mann. Would love him to write a whole Heresy RG novel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 I personally enjoyed Raven's Flight it was a fun read.and I didnt think Deliverence lost was that bad. It had some goofy parts and yes the RG should feel like RG, but it was still a fine read for me, and some other people in the store I go to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 It's because Gav doesn't do anything to make his Legions different from the 40K equivalents. I call it the Imperial Fist syndrome. It says right in the FW book the Imperial Fists of the GC died during the Heresy, but we are still constantly treated to a parade of 'Captain Stoicism and his merry band of straight men' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymell Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 I've read all of Gav Thorpe's Raven Guard stuff so far (Deliverance Lost, Raven's Flight, The Shadowmasters, Corax: Soulforge, The Divine Word and Ravenlord), and I haven't hated any of them, they've all been fairly enjoyable reads. I would say however that Gav doesn't give them much of a distinctive personality, as a legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Deliverance Lost was so bad I havent even tried to read the novellas which were gifted to me. I simply dont believe I can sit through Gav taking a dump on one of my two favorite Legions/Chapters again. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar_Pattern Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 As I bought Visions of Heresy I read both Ravens Flight and Crimson Fist prior to their paperback. I will say that if anyone doesn't like DL then read RF instead as while I did enjoy DL, I feel like it only felt the same as RF when they assaulted the "Perfect Fortress". Can't say much about Ravenlord apart from that I want it badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helias_Tancred Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I give Deliverance Lost a thumbs up. I really like the Raven Guard, cool chapter interesting primarch ... the others were actually on my reading list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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