The Talon Of Horus

[WarSpirit]

Just finished reading it, i got to say it, A-D-B, i devoured that book. Truly great, so much that i would join abaddon right now if he was real. Great job !

[GWflufffan]

"I didn't really think ADB would have a problem writing Abaddon, that said, i'm not terribly fond of the character.

 

 

And it's not because he's failbaddon or because of some flaw with his characterization, it's because he's an archetype I don't particularly enjoy. There's about three things I like about him: I like the concept of the long war and it's roots in manifest destiny, I like him as a mold for a champion of all four gods, and I like his topknot, no more and no less. I'm not much a fan of his antichrist characterization as the first amongst traitors nor do I like how far the character distances himself from the past, not because it's bad per say, but because I personally don't find it compelling."

 

(caveat: this is all kind of awkward because ADB seems to be looking at this thread and for the most part, I think this was a pretty solid 40k novel, but that said...)

 

I think that's an interesting observation.  And I think it is actually a flaw of the characterization, if by flaw we refer to writing that brings us back out of the book.  So far, in just this first volume, there does not seem to be enough to justify Abaddon's motivation, especially since he says he is not trying to get revenge.

 

Think of it this way: each Spare Marine is supposedly an elite human being (the elite human being?), both before and following his transformation. Chosen to be a space marine by succeeding at all sorts of incredible trials, who then encounters and succeeds at even more incredible challenges.  A person of intensity and excellence and intense excellence.  Not just superior reflexes or superior training, these are persons of superior drive, superior determination, superior willpower.  And this means more intense emotional involvement.  And moreover, any Space Marine that survives 100+ years is, presumably, a person who survives and prospers with this way of life.  And Abaddon more than (we assume) a handful of space marines in all of time, prospered and excel by this way of life.  In other words, in whatever way life and living as a Luna Wolf/Son of Horus was, it was something that worked so well for Abaddon that it presumably unlocked the greatness within him: a greatness NOT just to be a superior hero/champion or even Space Marine, but to be the single greatest space marine in a group of over a hundred thousand (if you count all the replacements of earlier casualties) super human giants.

 

So after all that, AND after being the person closest among non-primarchs to the second greatest human (it so appears) in history, for whom Abaddon obviously was willing to risk his life again and again (see, lots more emotional involvement!), Abaddon appears to have been emptied of that. Instead, he says he has this new ambition, to become (with his space marine peers) the drivers/masters of the galaxy and of mankind.

This doesn't seem to make sense based on Talon of Horus for a couple of reasons.  First, it doesn't explain -- or even much hint at -- how Abaddon is not afflicted by the continued need for revenge that occupies everyone running around the Eye at this initial post-Heresy period.  Clearly, he has had adventures and has come to understand himself better.  And this is fiction, so it's not like this "can't happen", but as Aristotle pointed out, we need even our fantastic stories to make psychological sense.  Of course, this could all be the point of Book 2 -- the story of Abaddon's interior development.  But for now, this is still very, very nebulous.  Remember, it's not that this sort of transformation is impossible.  Rather, I am arguing, that for Abaddon to have been such a successful space marine prior to Horus' defeat would, out of necessity, require psychological traits and proclivities that would make such a transformation extremely difficult.

 

Second, in all the time I have read about Abaddon (all the HH novels, Black Legion fluff, etc.)  he has never seemed interested in all about humanity.  Yes, power, yes, dominance, but I never would have thought that dominance of humanity was particularly important.  Or that this dominance had a goal, that there was some sort of desire to be part of the destiny of mankind.  Ultimately, Abaddon was always portrayed as being about Horus, his legion and, following the end of the Heresy, being for Abaddon (like the galaxy's most powerful gang boss maybe).

 

Now, maybe that's the characterization that ADB is trying to change.  However, it is at odds with other fluff (not that should matter).  Moreover, it did not seem to be reflecting in anything Abaddon did or tried to do in Talon of Horus.

 

 

 

[WarSpirit]

Understand your point, and it's what i like about the abaddon i'm seeing here, a change in characterisation. He's not just a madman anymore, nor someone broken on the anvil of his father's death. He has a motivation, a goal. There's many hint in the book about him controling his temper and lying in part to Khayon. I'm not sure that his goal is what he claims, and can still be only to destroy the imperium. In the old fluff, appart saying that he was awesome, and that he's strong there wasn't much about him, not enough to justify in my opinion why so many follow him. That's why i never truly loved the guy or the concept of the black legion.

 

Yes many will follow only the strongest, but leaders need more than brute strength to convince other leaders to join them. He give to Khayon and the other just that, a goal for witch they will follow him to the end, and that does not mean that this is his true goal. In fact it shows how charismatic, deceptive and ingenius he his to be able to gather so much of the other legions with him, all of them having only wish to destroy the sons of horus.

 

With this new portrait i see more why so many choose to join him, his lotives being real or not, and gives a better explanation of of how he became the master of a legion, not just because he's te strongest. I do admit that this is quite a change from his portrait in old fluff and the horus heresy series, but yes he had time to reflect on the failure of the rebellion and change. But all of that is of course my opinion :)

[Noctem Cultor]

After his portrayal of Abaddon in the Soul Hunter book there was no doubt that ADB would do a great job, my only worry was that this meant he would be drawn away from the NL after doing such a great job of making them go from being seen as Mercenaries to a Legion again. It was a great read while I didn't have the connection to the BL I did find myself drawn in and left with a liking for the Warmaster and his Legion if not a small desire to paint up a DV boxset in their colours and add the Despoiler (I came to my senses of course and went back to work in Midnight clad)

 

Of course this is still a worry as if you were BL would you keep one of if not your best Author to just one small section of the 40kverse? Nope you let him loose like a Hound of War!

[Loesh]

Bought the Ebook today.

 

I must say that i'm enjoying it thoroughly, indeed where I was worried the subject matter would not interest me I actually find it rather fascinating. I am quickly growing to like Khayon more then most non-EC legionnaires, his candidness and scholarly tone with everything just tickles a fancy of mine.

 

If i'm going to be honest with myself another reason I like it is because it confirms a lot of the ways I see things operating in the 40k setting, and like the Slaaneshi I play it's hard to resist something that strikes my personal ego.

 

I very much look forward to more.

[Stormborn]

Have to admit I approached this with some trepidation as I'm not a fan of Abandon or BL plus having recently read the emperors gift which didn't do much for me.  Started reading it at the weekend alongside Betrayer (which comes in a train sized paperback now) I've really enjoyed what I read so far (I'm up to the first encounter with the Vengeful Spirit and Rastabaddon).  Recommend it too anyone who hasn't picked up a copy yet. 

[Loesh]

Have to admit I approached this with some trepidation as I'm not a fan of Abandon or BL plus having recently read the emperors gift which didn't do much for me.  Started reading it at the weekend alongside Betrayer (which comes in a train sized paperback now) I've really enjoyed what I read so far (I'm up to the first encounter with the Vengeful Spirit and Rastabaddon).  Recommend it too anyone who hasn't picked up a copy yet. 

 

I had the same hesitance, but I suggest anyone who has similar feelings to give it a chance.

 

The mark of wisdom is knowing you don't like something, but looking to see what it has to offer anyways.

[Loesh]

So I finished reading the book today, it was quite enjoyable. I like Khayon immensely and of course Telemachon, even if he's not my favorite Slaaneshi by far. The Warp Lore kept me reading for a long time as did learning about the politics of the Eye, I lost a lot of my fuel around when Abaddon actually shows up but powered through it, even if I don't agree with it he was very eloquent when speaking about the ideals that would eventually form the Black Legion. I didn't care much for the Eldar but then again I never cared much for Xenos, still there were moments. However there is one all encompassing thing at the end of the book, the one thing that really pulls everything together for me and makes it a wonderful read, something that makes the entire rest of the book completely pale by comparison.

 

 

Baby Fulgrim is so Kawaii.

 

[Brother Casman]

Given the amount of discussion in this topic, I've bumped it over to the Black Library forum. Enjoy, folks!

[karden00]

I gotta say, I really did enjoy it. A couple of things:

1) Khayon was well done. I really enjoyed getting into his head.

2) I actually thought it was well done...but still kind of strange how ADB described warp life in general. I loved the explanations of the Tlaloc's crew growing horns (Faulkus as well) that matched their personalities, that was great. But...warpspace itself just didnt seem....somehow volatile enough for me. Sure, there were plenty of instances where warpspace itself was an issue, if not a direct threat, and I suppose he couldnt have made the novel too jam packed with 'well when flying through hell, things are pretty dodgey,' but I remember thinking a few times that it felt a lot like when other ships in other stories traveled. Is there a difference between going from realspace into the warp in order to travel great distances and ships in the eye of terror just going about their way? Did any of this novel actually take place right in the warp, or was in in 'eyespace,' eyespace being the space around the eye that we can see on galactic maps (something I always thought was more stable than straight up Warp, but still very dangerously unstable and not at all like realspace). Come to think of it...I guess I always thought of the Eye as a sort of whirlpool, and if you dont die during the process of being sucked down the hole at the middle, you then get shot into the real deal 'warp' (which I always pictured as being basically lacking geography (for lack of a better term. No sense of 'this is here, that stuff is over there'). Anyway, not a gripe strictly speaking, just something that I saw a little different.

3) Loved...no loved the Amneosis, or however you spell it. (Dont have book on hand) I just had a great time visualizing that crazy stuff. Same goes for everything the wicked little eldar did.

4) Abaddon. Hmm. Loved the hints of temper being held in. Not a huge fan of the rastafarian angle hinted at above (kudos, that was lolz) almost seemed like a trope, kind of like the crazy piranha scientist in Piranha 3D (cause yeah, im the that watched that movie). Not sure how I felt about him overcoming the Horus clone so seemingly easily. Also...The Talon of Horus being able to snap Worldbreaker...I get the symbolism that the scene was supposed to relay, and that it was always the Talon of Horus, not worldbreaker, that was the legendary weapon. I also get that as the Word Bearer said, This is no longer the time of the 20 false demigods. The time of primarchs is over, and they cannot be relied upon as the given choice for power and dominance. I get it, but part of me was not terribly pleased at seeing the new (talon & Abaddon) completely obliterate the old (Horus & Worldbreaker) Even though I Get that this is more or less what the story is about. I dunno. I guess I am sad to see Horus go (again) even though I know that was the whole point of the story. I suppose Horus will always have this morsel of nobility, despite it all, whereas Abaddon has always just been kinda bad. (I know, there are problems with that logic).

5) When Khayon noticed the Talon, he loses his words saying 'Is that...Is that the blood of...' and I assumed it was the Emperor, but then he goes on to talk about the effect the Talon had on Blood Angels. What did yall think it meant? Was that the Emperors blood, or Sangy's? I guess it could well be both...

6) Oh. One last thing. I was kind of disappointed with the scale of the Vengeful Spirit itself. It seemed kind of small. I know its still stupidly big, but I was kind of hoping we would never get a firm description in km about just how big it was. I always liked that some of its guns were bigger than the Eisenstein, and now that its been firmly described in direct terms...I dunno. I wanted it to be stupidly, absurdly big. Its still huge, of course but yeah. Maybe FW is really trying to nail down specifics like that, and ADB had access to some notes?

Really great read though, didnt want to put it down for a bit! Go and read it everyone, there's something in there for everyone.

Please dont tell the =][= that I am so into something chaosy.

[Loesh]

Probably both I would think.

 

Speaking of Horus: Was delightful to see the Emperors Children again even if it was on the losing end of things, I wasn't terribly miffed considering the sheer amount of force involved in the fighting, also the Fleshmarket was interesting as was Fabius. Given their sheer revulsion to the good doctor i'm mildly curious...perhaps curious enough to pick up another book...as to how future dealings go as he's so critical to work inside the Eye of Terror.

 

Also: If it's any consolation about the Horus Clone it's worth noting that the story is...after all...being told through Khayons eyes and ears. When someone opens the story with 'every word written here is true' i'm inclined to raise my eyebrow and wonder if it is. Which is not to say I think Khayon was a liar, at least not completely, but that his story may be distorted in parts. At the end when talking about the Horus clone and how things end he gives an account of some other outcomes about those final moments that are promptly dismissed but to me this could also be him trying to discount some other legend or alternate view on what occured, it's entirely possible that Abaddon had a much harder time then what Khayon says he does.

 

That's about the best way to read the story I think, things that you should take with a grain of salt and keeping in mind who the speaker is. For Abaddon, I may not find him terribly impressive personally or all that charismatic but it makes sense that within the book he is very much those things, because Khayon is exactly the kind of Chaos Space Marine that Abaddon would appeal to the most. When he talks about how their pasts should be left behind and the prospects of forming a new legion of course Khayon is receptive because of his past, the Thousand Sons have much more bitter memories of their old legion then many members of Chaos and he is an embodiment of that. He's haunted by his failures, the failures of his father, and the failures of his legion, so Abaddon is telling him about the dream that he's always wanted but never had the resources to reach for.

[b1soul]

There seems to be some inconsistency between the prior rather one-dimensional "angrymarine" portrayal of Abaddon and ADB's Abaddon 

 

Inconsistency only annoys me when the inconsistency doesn't improve upon the prior fluff. I think everyone here would agree that ADB's characterisation of Abaddon is far superior to the choleric, "Abaddon angry, Abaddon smash" characterisation of earlier works. 

 

Furthermore, ADB isn't ignoring Abaddon's previous characterisation. Abaddon's pilgrimage obviously had a huge effect on his character. I believe what we have here isn't a case of authorial inconsistency...rather it's a case of ADB trying to develop a character. He's improving upon a simplistic, rather implausible earlier portrayal.  

 

Choleric Abaddon develops into Charismatic Abaddon...like how Pathetic Lorgar develops into Confident Lorgar. Pivotal events unlock previously latent personality traits.  

[tgjensen]

I don't mind developing the character over the previous incarnations, which were very much the Saturday morning cartoon villain type, but I hope ADBs version stays true to his roots all the same. The angry Abaddon we know was portrayed as such in M41 as well, so you can't simply explain it as going on a pilgrimage soon after the Heresy. There's gotta be some anger under the surface that is allowed to flare up from time to time.

[Marshal Loss]

There seems to be some inconsistency between the prior rather one-dimensional "angrymarine" portrayal of Abaddon and ADB's Abaddon

Inconsistency only annoys me when the inconsistency doesn't improve upon the prior fluff. I think everyone here would agree that ADB's characterisation of Abaddon is far superior to the choleric, "Abaddon angry, Abaddon smash" characterisation of earlier works.

Furthermore, ADB isn't ignoring Abaddon's previous characterisation. Abaddon's pilgrimage obviously had a huge effect on his character. I believe what we have here isn't a case of authorial inconsistency...rather it's a case of ADB trying to develop a character. He's improving upon a simplistic, rather implausible earlier portrayal.

Choleric Abaddon develops into Charismatic Abaddon...like how Pathetic Lorgar develops into Confident Lorgar. Pivotal events unlock previously latent personality traits.

My problem with this is the sheer disparity between the two. At least with Lorgar, it's easily plausible. We know he's a religious fanatic, and he searches for the kind of inner strength that he can derive from faith. Abaddon in the Horus Heresy is characterised only by his 'war-dog' persona. In the first three books, he just struts around being angry and xenophobic. In Deliverance Lost, he's simply barking at the foes of Horus. In Vengeful Spirit, he's so choleric his only contribution to the orbital assault is the backing up of Falkus Kibre's generic suggestion.

While I'm not saying you're wrong - I 100% agree (obviously) that his pilgrimage is responsible for this change - I feel like he needs to be written better in the Heresy. The only change we've seen so far over the entire course of the Horus Heresy series is the kindling of his ambition due to his exposure to the golden spirit in Vengeful Spirit - character development with no real path. While they don't need to make him the same Abaddon as in Talon of Horus, there should be a middle ground. We should be seeing glimpses of his charisma, his leadership, his ability. All we see thus far is an almost childish anger, and while I like that he's fanatically loyal to Horus, one gets the feeling purely from the series that he got his position by virtue of being a fanatic, not a skilled war leader.

I mean, honestly, if we didn't about who Abaddon was from 40k or weren't told occasionally in the novels/FW books that he was a feared space marine with a great tally of victories, would the portrayal of him in the Horus Heresy show us this? Certainly not, in my opinion.

Still, the positive is that after all these years, one of my favourite characters is finally receiving the attention he deserves from an author with enough skill to not write him off as a ravening lunatic. Loved the book and enjoyed reading the thoughts of others in this topic.

[fluxdeluxe]

There seems to be some inconsistency between the prior rather one-dimensional "angrymarine" portrayal of Abaddon and ADB's Abaddon

Inconsistency only annoys me when the inconsistency doesn't improve upon the prior fluff. I think everyone here would agree that ADB's characterisation of Abaddon is far superior to the choleric, "Abaddon angry, Abaddon smash" characterisation of earlier works.

Furthermore, ADB isn't ignoring Abaddon's previous characterisation. Abaddon's pilgrimage obviously had a huge effect on his character. I believe what we have here isn't a case of authorial inconsistency...rather it's a case of ADB trying to develop a character. He's improving upon a simplistic, rather implausible earlier portrayal.

Choleric Abaddon develops into Charismatic Abaddon...like how Pathetic Lorgar develops into Confident Lorgar. Pivotal events unlock previously latent personality traits.

My problem with this is the sheer disparity between the two. At least with Lorgar, it's easily plausible. We know he's a religious fanatic, and he searches for the kind of inner strength that he can derive from faith. Abaddon in the Horus Heresy is characterised only by his 'war-dog' persona. In the first three books, he just struts around being angry and xenophobic. In Deliverance Lost, he's simply barking at the foes of Horus. In Vengeful Spirit, he's so choleric his only contribution to the orbital assault is the backing up of Falkus Kibre's generic suggestion.

While I'm not saying you're wrong - I 100% agree (obviously) that his pilgrimage is responsible for this change - I feel like he needs to be written better in the Heresy. The only change we've seen so far over the entire course of the Horus Heresy series is the kindling of his ambition due to his exposure to the golden spirit in Vengeful Spirit - character development with no real path. While they don't need to make him the same Abaddon as in Talon of Horus, there should be a middle ground. We should be seeing glimpses of his charisma, his leadership, his ability. All we see thus far is an almost childish anger, and while I like that he's fanatically loyal to Horus, one gets the feeling purely from the series that he got his position by virtue of being a fanatic, not a skilled war leader.

I mean, honestly, if we didn't about who Abaddon was from 40k or weren't told occasionally in the novels/FW books that he was a feared space marine with a great tally of victories, would the portrayal of him in the Horus Heresy show us this? Certainly not, in my opinion.

Still, the positive is that after all these years, one of my favourite characters is finally receiving the attention he deserves from an author with enough skill to not write him off as a ravening lunatic. Loved the book and enjoyed reading the thoughts of others in this topic.

To be fair it's early days in the Heresy, and Horus still hasn't really started sliding into complete insanity. VS was important because regardless of what Horus thinks he has sold his body and soul to the powers to gain power comparable to his father. Abbadon in the Heresy so far is the model son, loyal attack dog. The ultimate muscle or henchmen. I expect as Horus detiorates and things start falling to pieces the closer they get to Terra, Abbadon is probably going to change quite a bit. You must remember that he sees his Icon, the centre of his universe horus become a pawn of greater powers. At the moment in the Heresy all of the leigons bar the eaters, the children and the night lords sees themselves as masters of their own destiny, they see themselves as the lords and masters of the Imperium incumbent. Despite all that's happened they still see themselves as the chosen sons. As the Heresy timeline progresses this will be stripped away as more and more legions and their Primarchs fall under the total control of the powers. Abbadon i feel is going to come to some fairly earth shattering realisations of exactly the path Horus has sold them down and how completely his father has been conned and manipulated by the powers. If there is anything Abbadons character has proved so far it's that the only control he will surrender is to his gene father. When he realises that his genefather is dead and a simulacrum of Horus controlled by the 4 powers is in his place i expect him to react fairly badly. I think suspicions, and foreshadowing of this ultimate revelation will occur before the siege of terra but will only become fully apparent to Abbadon either on Terra or in it's immediate aftermath.

[Master Ciaphas]

Well - I am still reading it - and I am loving it so far. By far the best Black Library book in my collection. 

Does any one know when the second volume will be coming out? As I will surely be getting that in the Limited First edition version as well...

[Vesper]

There seems to be some inconsistency between the prior rather one-dimensional "angrymarine" portrayal of Abaddon and ADB's Abaddon

Inconsistency only annoys me when the inconsistency doesn't improve upon the prior fluff. I think everyone here would agree that ADB's characterisation of Abaddon is far superior to the choleric, "Abaddon angry, Abaddon smash" characterisation of earlier works.

Furthermore, ADB isn't ignoring Abaddon's previous characterisation. Abaddon's pilgrimage obviously had a huge effect on his character. I believe what we have here isn't a case of authorial inconsistency...rather it's a case of ADB trying to develop a character. He's improving upon a simplistic, rather implausible earlier portrayal.

Choleric Abaddon develops into Charismatic Abaddon...like how Pathetic Lorgar develops into Confident Lorgar. Pivotal events unlock previously latent personality traits.

My problem with this is the sheer disparity between the two. At least with Lorgar, it's easily plausible. We know he's a religious fanatic, and he searches for the kind of inner strength that he can derive from faith. Abaddon in the Horus Heresy is characterised only by his 'war-dog' persona. In the first three books, he just struts around being angry and xenophobic. In Deliverance Lost, he's simply barking at the foes of Horus. In Vengeful Spirit, he's so choleric his only contribution to the orbital assault is the backing up of Falkus Kibre's generic suggestion.

While I'm not saying you're wrong - I 100% agree (obviously) that his pilgrimage is responsible for this change - I feel like he needs to be written better in the Heresy. The only change we've seen so far over the entire course of the Horus Heresy series is the kindling of his ambition due to his exposure to the golden spirit in Vengeful Spirit - character development with no real path. While they don't need to make him the same Abaddon as in Talon of Horus, there should be a middle ground. We should be seeing glimpses of his charisma, his leadership, his ability. All we see thus far is an almost childish anger, and while I like that he's fanatically loyal to Horus, one gets the feeling purely from the series that he got his position by virtue of being a fanatic, not a skilled war leader.

I mean, honestly, if we didn't about who Abaddon was from 40k or weren't told occasionally in the novels/FW books that he was a feared space marine with a great tally of victories, would the portrayal of him in the Horus Heresy show us this? Certainly not, in my opinion.

Still, the positive is that after all these years, one of my favourite characters is finally receiving the attention he deserves from an author with enough skill to not write him off as a ravening lunatic. Loved the book and enjoyed reading the thoughts of others in this topic.

Abaddon is said to slaughter his way through the Imperial Palace, leading the Justaerin. They murder anyone foolish enough to oppose them, as per FW. So expect to see some badass showing of might from Abaddon around the final showdown of the Heresy. That's probably in a few decades from now, but hey.

Does any one know when the second volume will be coming out? As I will surely be getting that in the Limited First edition version as well...

It comes out way too late, it's the only thing certain. I want it now.

[mc warhammer]

i haven’t read the book yet, but i have no issue with the development of abaddon, especially if you see it as the progression of the immature son to mature adult via takeing his father’s place. the son killing the father and replacing him has a huge tradition in mythology (as abaddon does through the clone).

 

relationships are funny things- as long as the other person (father, mother, lover, boss) is around, we allow them to shoulder certain responsibilities and attitudes. we don’t need to embody their characteristics because they do it just fine. once we lose them in our lives, sometimes we seek to replace them by taking their place.

 

i’ve seen it with a female friend of mine who took on “masculine” traits that she once relied on her ex-boyfriend for. part of that is just her maturation, but i feel like it was also partly in response to the void left by him. similarly, when my father passed away, i naturally tended towards taking on his role in the family and that involved changes in my attitudes that more closely mirrored his.

 

i can believe in abaddon originally being like a bombastic teen who could act like the spoiled favourite child because having dad there to take on all the serious issues gave the first captain that freedom to indulge his choler. but once horus was gone, abs had to step up to the plate.

 

first captain’s school report card “ ezekiel has a lot of potential but does not apply himself fully. bit of a temper. has keen interest in sport.”

[jeremy1391]

Started reading it and am loving it so far

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

I read it, I liked it, but I am worried. I'm worried that the Black Legion might contract Ultramarine/Draigo syndrome and become the "bestest chaos marines evar" and all the other legions want to be like the black legion and so on. I'm also worried about Khayon. They way he is written so far I like but he slides dangerously close to being a Mary Sue. I hope ADB proves my worries wrong.

[jeremy1391]

I like Khayon, he doesn't seem Mary due to me.

 

 

 

A Mary sue wouldn't be at the mercy of the inquisition... With no eyes while crucified.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

I like Khayon, he doesn't seem Mary due to me.

A Mary sue wouldn't be at the mercy of the inquisition... With no eyes while crucified.

He gave himself up to them I thought?

[Conn Eremon]

Doesn't make him any less at their mercy.

[Loesh]

Doesn't make him any less at their mercy.

 

But it does mean he was caught only because he was allowed to be caught.

 

I don't think Khayon is a Mary Sue mind you, but a victory handed to you by your enemy does not demonstrate any form of superiority. 

[Conn Eremon]

Yeah, but still doesn't mean he is any less at their mercy.

 

 

[Meme]*doesn't matter, had victory*[/meme]