The Talon Of Horus

[Tenebris]

I think it is not so grim. My impression is that the ascension of the Black Legion and the iron rule of Abaddon made life for many people in the Empire of the Eye, actually livable. My consideration is that what the Black Legion attempts to do is to bring focus to the Chaos forces, giving them a purpose and a tangible goal. 

 

If I follow the analogy with Horus, indeed he was Warmaster and the Sons of Horus were the top dogs but this still allowed the Tharmas and Shadow Crusades to play, with often sinister means and goals of the other legions behind. This allowed Fulgrim to manipulate Pertuabo for his ascension and so on... Horus and his Sons gave structure to the traitor faction in HH, but still this did not prevent the other legions under his banner to persecute their own goals or to have a... character. Despite Horus calling most of the shots and enforcing his lordship across the legions this did not prevent the other characters and primarchs to shine, or the legions to prosper. 

[A D-B]

Loesh, on 31 Oct 2014 - 2:15 PM, said:

I don't mind killing Loyalist characters as long as it's for good reason, i'm worried about it escalating to the point where it's just to show Chaos killing loyalists.

 

Sure, but... why would I do that? I don't have a track record for it, I don't think it's a good idea, and I think it's a reach given how I perceive Chaos (in detail, here, there, and everywhere).

 

 

I think Loesh's point is that Abaddon is the fulcrum, the lens through which all of Chaos is reflected, but that he would prefer it if he was not. That instead, you had multiple fulcrums spread liberally about the Nine Legions. It is that Abaddon is singular, and singularly above, that rubs him the wrong way. He doesn't disagree that this is the case, he is just iterating his opinion on how he would prefer it to be instead.

 

It's always been this way, though. And I agree with Loesh on Chaos lore in pretty much every way (I'm not even sure we're disagreeing now) but it's always been that Abaddon has the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, and everyone else has lesser/individual blessings.

 

Ultimately, no matter how big a player someone is in the Eye, they're still... I mean, take the Ancient Greeks. You didn't want to start a fight with the Athenian navy. Lord, no. But... y'know, they're all the way over there, anyway. So screw 'em. The Theban Sacred Band is a Spartan-destroying cacophony of ultimate badasses? Well, sure, but... they're all the way away in Thebes.

 

Abaddon is dominant, not omnipotent. The Black Legion is ascendant. Not omnipresent. 

[Loesh]

I think it is not so grim. My impression is that the ascension of the Black Legion and the iron rule of Abaddon made life for many people in the Empire of the Eye, actually livable. My consideration is that what the Black Legion attempts to do is to bring focus to the Chaos forces, giving them a purpose and a tangible goal. 

 

If I follow the analogy with Horus, indeed he was Warmaster and the Sons of Horus were the top dogs but this still allowed the Tharmas and Shadow Crusades to play, with often sinister means and goals of the other legions behind. This allowed Fulgrim to manipulate Pertuabo for his ascension and so on... Horus and his Sons gave structure to the traitor faction in HH, but still this did not prevent the other legions under his banner to persecute their own goals or to have a... character. 

 

However I would much rather that the other Legions made their own goals and purpose, Abaddon handing it to us means it's not ours, it's not part of who our legions identify with.

 

It gives the impression that if you're not with Abaddon, you're wrong and you don't matter so that 'character' we have has no meaning in the grand scheme of things. Things can be published to the contrary, but as the Black Legion get's more development it'll drown to overwhelming evidence to the opposite.

 

If there was one good thing Failbaddon did, it allowed people to not take him seriously enough to keep on keeping on with their own legion and feel pride in it, that's something I fear will slowly fall apart.

[Loesh]

Loesh, on 31 Oct 2014 - 2:15 PM, said:

I don't mind killing Loyalist characters as long as it's for good reason, i'm worried about it escalating to the point where it's just to show Chaos killing loyalists.

Sure, but... why would I do that? I don't have a track record for it, I don't think it's a good idea, and I think it's a reach given how I perceive Chaos (in detail, here, there, and everywhere).

I think Loesh's point is that Abaddon is the fulcrum, the lens through which all of Chaos is reflected, but that he would prefer it if he was not. That instead, you had multiple fulcrums spread liberally about the Nine Legions. It is that Abaddon is singular, and singularly above, that rubs him the wrong way. He doesn't disagree that this is the case, he is just iterating his opinion on how he would prefer it to be instead.

It's always been this way, though. And I agree with Loesh on Chaos lore in pretty much every way (I'm not even sure we're disagreeing now) but it's always been that Abaddon has the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, and everyone else has lesser/individual blessings.

Ultimately, no matter how big a player someone is in the Eye, they're still... I mean, take the Ancient Greeks. You didn't want to start a fight with the Athenian navy. Lord, no. But... y'know, they're all the way over there, anyway. So screw 'em. The Theban Sacred Band is a Spartan-destroying cacophony of ultimate badasses? Well, sure, but... they're all the way away in Thebes.

Abaddon is dominant, not omnipotent. The Black Legion is ascendant. Not omnipresent.

I don't think(Or rather I hope you won't) that you will, I was more replying to Tenebris take on the matter, which I found....worrying.

I have no idea if we're disagreeing to be honest. after I sent that reply to Tenebris, i'v been bouncing between replying to him and talking to someone else that it's been hard to absorb all the information in the thread.

I know that's how it's always been, I just don't think that's how it should be, but that's not *my* call that's Games Workshops call.

Side note: The Sacred Band of Thebes would of made a much better 300 movie.

[Tenebris]

The "killing" aspect... how misunderstood you have me there (enter Yoga voice).

 

Fact is Chaos is the punching bag for loyalists in lore, for almost... like.. ever. This makes our faction less and less credible as the greatest evil and villains in the setting. Fact is Chaos should be a long time on a murdering spree, not only just killing characters but also destroying entire chapters, fleets, worlds... you name it, all in order to effectively represent Chaos as the "proper" villains of the setting. 

 

As it is now, we of Chaos are simply the classic Sunday morning villain in the cartoons. Every week we see him plot the demise of the hero but due to stupidity or due to incompetence he gets beaten every single Sunday morning. Now how in good graces is such a villain credible?

 

If I collate across the Chaos resources for such epic moments when hundreds of loyalist marines died and that it was not in the HH era... well I think I would struggle to fill a page or two. If I do the same for the loyalist... by now almost all traitor legions would be decimated in the first two pages with more yet to fill, without saying how many daemon primarch would have their hearts or arses written upon...

 

It is that hard to ask that we of Chaos are a few times the indisputable victors, that victory is undeniable and that the loyalists really, but really suffered because of it. ... and please killing Blood Angels is getting boring. There were almost extinct for what... three times by now. 

 

All I ask is a simple, honest, murder spree of anything loyalist.. at least a few instances of it.

[Loesh]

The "killing" aspect... how misunderstood you have me there (enter Yoga voice).

 

Fact is Chaos is the punching bag for loyalists in lore, for almost... like.. ever. This makes our faction less and less credible as the greatest evil and villains in the setting. Fact is Chaos should be a long time on a murdering spree, not only just killing characters but also destroying entire chapters, fleets, worlds... you name it, all in order to effectively represent Chaos as the "proper" villains of the setting. 

 

As it is now, we of Chaos are simply the classic Sunday morning villain in the cartoons. Every week we see him plot the demise of the hero but due to stupidity or due to incompetence he gets beaten every single Sunday morning. Now how in good graces is such a villain credible?

 

If I collate across the Chaos resources for such epic moments when hundreds of loyalist marines died and that it was not in the HH era... well I think I would struggle to fill a page or two. If I do the same for the loyalist... by now almost all traitor legions would be decimated in the first to pages with more yet to fill, without saying how many daemon primarch would have their hearts or arses written upon...

 

Has Chaos been punching bagged in the setting? Yeah, hell yeah. actually. We do need to be threatening to the loyalists, and we need to build some sort of reputation.

 

It just sounds to me like combating bad writing with more bad writing to suddenly start slaughtering them however, I just want to make sure there's solid reasons for doing it.

[Vesper]

 

Said black Leviathan would be interesting, i'd like it even...if it was confined to some area of space. The thing is, having everything essentially revolve around the Black Legion also gives one the sense of 'Why am I even playing this?' because you'll never be as great, you'll never do as much, and your faction has no chance of gaining as much, your capacity to be a badass will constantly be measured against this bigger badass and due to how the setting is shaped it will always be found wanting. You shouldn't be defined by whether or not you are or are not with Abaddon nor should you be greatly limited by it, you should be defined by who you are and what you achieve with your accomplishments not rendered...ultimately...inconsequential.

 

 

As a Black Legion player for 10 years or so, I've never seen the Black Legion as the end all be all of Chaos Marines. The Black Legion sure is the only Legion left worthy of this name (even though it's relative), they are the top dogs of the Eye of Terror, the greatest collection of Chaos Astartes, Daemons, humans, Titans, Dark Mechanicus, etc. and they also are the most dangerous threat to the Imperium.

Yet, it's not because other warbands / Legions can't be the Black Legion that they worth nothing. They have different agendas (when the Black Legion was built with a single goal in mind), they play a different role, they are something else.

The primary goal of most Emperor's Children warbands isn't to destroy the Imperium, mostly because they can't. They aren't shaped to do so, that isn't their paradigm. Their primary goal can be whatever their Lord wants at this point (to survive, take revenge, raid, gain power...), what Fulgrim commands, what the warband they're currently working for wants, what Slaanesh told them to do, etc. The limit is pretty much the sky.

Sure, many Emperor's Children (or former EC) will take any opportunities to bleed the Imperium. Sometimes on their own (Jihar the Lacerator, for instance), sometimes under the cohesive factor of those who live to tear the Imperium down : the Black Legion. The Emperor's Children (as a Legion, as a legacy) don't live for that. That's a concern many have left behind, exept those who left to join the Black Legion, yet they have those moments when that faraway concern drives them : the Black Crusades (of Abaddon or others).

The Emperor's Children aren't less interesting than the Black Legion because they are less powerful. They simply don't have the same objectives and the same way of living.

[Tenebris]

 

It gives the impression that if you're not with Abaddon, you're wrong and you don't matter so that 'character' we have has no meaning in the grand scheme of things. Things can be published to the contrary, but as the Black Legion get's more development it'll drown to overwhelming evidence to the opposite.

 

If there was one good thing Failbaddon did, it allowed people to not take him seriously enough to keep on keeping on with their own legion and feel pride in it, that's something I fear will slowly fall apart.

 

 

The Eye is a big place, the galaxy also. There is room for anything and everyone's interpretation has a place in it... but... but to deny Abaddon's rightful role just because it overshadows the story of a singular warband or another traitor legion... well it is selfish. He is as ADB said the bearer of the Mark of Chaos Ascendant. he is the paragon for every cult marine, be it Tzeentchian or Slaaneshi, he is the Champion of every Chaos God and he is the closest thing to a leading figure that Chaos has, he is as I see it the Emperor of Chaos. 

 

Now I agree that this might overshadow the characters and the warbands of the other legions but so it was with Horus, so it is with the Ultramarines. They are the fulcrums in a story setting, everything else is simply background. What we make of this background is our choice but some things like Abaddon are there to represent a faction, in this case Chaos.

 

To actually be against Abaddon is not something that special, Chaos is a fractious faction, problem is that if his gaze falls upon your warband or chaos lord... well this is bad news. Nowhere is written that Abaddon is absolute, but he is indeed the norm by which many many things are measured, especially in the Eye. 

 

I think that your concern is misplaced. I think it is understandable to see the Black Legion ascendant and feel some remorse, especially if you parade for another of the traitor legions, but in all truth I don't see this fact as detrimental to ones own fluff and fiction of a warband, ot harmful to "legion pride". As I see it the Black Legion dominance provides a very nice structure and strong point to Chaos fiction which can be used to not only explain the doings of the other traitor legions, but also to exalt them.

 

In Pandorax it was Huron who saved Abaddon and it was he who forced the Warmaster to bargain, not the other way around. This is a precedent which gives ample room and context to the other traitor forces in their dealings with the Warmaster and his Black Legion.  

[Loesh]

 

 

Said black Leviathan would be interesting, i'd like it even...if it was confined to some area of space. The thing is, having everything essentially revolve around the Black Legion also gives one the sense of 'Why am I even playing this?' because you'll never be as great, you'll never do as much, and your faction has no chance of gaining as much, your capacity to be a badass will constantly be measured against this bigger badass and due to how the setting is shaped it will always be found wanting. You shouldn't be defined by whether or not you are or are not with Abaddon nor should you be greatly limited by it, you should be defined by who you are and what you achieve with your accomplishments not rendered...ultimately...inconsequential.

 

 

As a Black Legion player for 10 years or so, I've never seen the Black Legion as the end all be all of Chaos Marines. The Black Legion sure is the only Legion left worthy of this name (even though it's relative), they are the top dogs of the Eye of Terror, the greatest collection of Chaos Astartes, Daemons, humans, Titans, Dark Mechanicus, etc. and they also are the most dangerous threat to the Imperium.

Yet, it's not because other warbands / Legions can't be the Black Legion that they worth nothing. They have different agendas (when the Black Legion was built with a single goal in mind), they play a different role, they are something else.

The primary goal of most Emperor's Children warbands isn't to destroy the Imperium, mostly because they can't. They aren't shaped to do so, that isn't their paradigm. Their primary goal can be whatever their Lord wants at this point (to survive, take revenge, raid, gain power...), what Fulgrim commands, what the warband they're currently working for wants, what Slaanesh told them to do, etc. The limit is pretty much the sky.

Sure, many Emperor's Children (or former EC) will take any opportunities to bleed the Imperium. Sometimes on their own (Jihar the Lacerator, for instance), sometimes under the cohesive factor of those who live to tear the Imperium down : the Black Legion. The Emperor's Children (as a Legion, as a legacy) don't live for that. That's a concern many have left behind, exept those who left to join the Black Legion, yet they have those moments when that faraway concern drives them : the Black Crusades (of Abaddon or others).

The Emperor's Children aren't less interesting than the Black Legion because they are less powerful. They simply don't have the same objectives and the same way of living.

 

 

Which is not something i'd argue they should do, nor do I think it makes them less interesting(I wouldn't love them so much if they did.) nor do I think that the Black Legion are better then the EC. We actually had one of the rare instances of sticking it to Abaddon when a Emperors Children Warband kicked Devram Korda out of Sarora.

 

But the Black Legion being so larger then life gives the feeling of being estranged, of being distant to the universe itself, of...indeed..feeling lesser, which is not a feeling I think any of the Legions should have to deal with. If it were up to me, all nine legions would be ambiguous with their strength though not necessarily their numbers, dealing with the fight against the Imperium/Xenos/Survival itself in their own ways and we'd all get to be our own special little snowflakes on an equal playing field.

 

But again, it's not up to me.

[Loesh]

 

 

It gives the impression that if you're not with Abaddon, you're wrong and you don't matter so that 'character' we have has no meaning in the grand scheme of things. Things can be published to the contrary, but as the Black Legion get's more development it'll drown to overwhelming evidence to the opposite.

 

If there was one good thing Failbaddon did, it allowed people to not take him seriously enough to keep on keeping on with their own legion and feel pride in it, that's something I fear will slowly fall apart.

 

 

The Eye is a big place, the galaxy also. There is room for anything and everyone's interpretation has a place in it... but... but to deny Abaddon's rightful role just because it overshadows the story of a singular warband or another traitor legion... well it is selfish. He is as ADB said the bearer of the Mark of Chaos Ascendant. he is the paragon for every cult marine, be it Tzeentchian or Slaaneshi, he is the Champion of every Chaos God and he is the closest thing to a leading figure that Chaos has, he is as I see it the Emperor of Chaos. 

 

Now I agree that this might overshadow the characters and the warbands of the other legions but so it was with Horus, so it is with the Ultramarines. They are the fulcrums in a story setting, everything else is simply background. What we make of this background is our choice but some things like Abaddon are there to represent a faction, in this case Chaos.

 

To actually be against Abaddon is not something that special, Chaos is a fractious faction, problem is that if his gaze falls upon your warband or chaos lord... well this is bad news. Nowhere is written that Abaddon is absolute, but he is indeed the norm by which many many things are measured, especially in the Eye. 

 

I think that your concern is misplaced. I think it is understandable to see the Black Legion ascendant and feel some remorse, especially if you parade for another of the traitor legions, but in all truth I don't see this fact as detrimental to ones own fluff and fiction of a warband, ot harmful to "legion pride". As I see it the Black Legion dominance provides a very nice structure and strong point to Chaos fiction which can be used to not only explain the doings of the other traitor legions, but also to exalt them.

 

In Pandorax it was Huron who saved Abaddon and it was he who forced the Warmaster to bargain, not the other way around. This is a precedent which gives ample room and context to the other traitor forces in their dealings with the Warmaster and his Black Legion.  

 

 

Selfish? of course it's selfish, who do you think I am? a loyalist? But I think it's equally selfish to say that Abaddon ascendant is his rightful place, or that any one legion should be above the others. Chaos does not need an Emperor, I don't think it ever did, if it did then I would probably preferred playing Imperium.

 

The fact that him looking at you is bad news, but otherwise your fine is whether you believe it or not, harmful to Legion pride. Because it implies the only way you can survive is subservience, bargaining, and cowardice. The big three things that really take away from pride in oneself, or ones work.

[Tenebris]

 

 

But the Black Legion being so larger then life gives the feeling of being estranged, of being distant to the universe itself, of...indeed..feeling lesser, which is not a feeling I think any of the Legions should have to deal with. If it were up to me, all nine legions would be ambiguous with their strength though not necessarily their numbers, dealing with the fight against the Imperium/Xenos/Survival itself in their own ways and we'd all get to be our own special little snowflakes on an equal playing field.

 

But again, it's not up to me.

 

 

Which is actually the antithesis of Chaos. Only the strong prosper, the weak perish or are enslaved. A warband who cannot fight for its own survival, for its own piece of hell is unworthy to claim it. A chaos lord who is not able to back up his demands with deadly force is no chaos lord at all. 

 

In this cutthroat context Abaddon became the top dog of this fratricidious collective. Not only that, he also offered many warbands to prosper under the aegis of the Black Legion. He is equally a savior as he is a tyrant and any warband, legion, daemon or lord who cannot back up his claims with force or guile in the politics of the Eye deserves no power, only slavery. 

 

The traitor legions cannot cope with the ascension of the Black Legion since they are so fractured and even the Black Legion suffers from the same problem. The saving grace of the Black Legion though is that they have a very clear vision on how things should be run in the Eye (and in the Imperium too) and they are able to back up their view with enough force. Sometimes it works sometimes it does not, but no one can ignore them by M41. 

 

If Chaos would not have a dominating presence to lead its myriad of factions it would crumble into internecine conflict the likes of the Slave Wars. The spot of Warmaster was open for everyone... only Abaddon though proved to be worthy of it. To be a special snowflake is still a viable choice, but in the "modern" politics of the Empire of the Eye this is not a working concept. 

 

Remember, we of Chaos kill each other for sport and only something far more scary than ourselves can keep us in check, fortunately of us Abaddon in plenty scary. 

[Loesh]

 

 

Which is actually the antithesis of Chaos. Only the strong prosper, the weak perish or are enslaved. A warband who cannot fight for its own survival, for its own piece of hell is unworthy to claim it. A chaos lord who is not able to back up his demands with deadly force is no chaos lord at all. 

 

In this cutthroat context Abaddon became the top dog of this fratricidious collective. Not only that, he also offered many warbands to prosper under the aegis of the Black Legion. He is equally a savior as he is a tyrant and any warband, legion, daemon or lord who cannot back up his claims with force or guile in the politics of the Eye deserves no power, only slavery. 

 

The traitor legions cannot cope with the ascension of the Black Legion since they are so fractured and even the Black Legion suffers from the same problem. The saving grace of the Black Legion though is that they have a very clear vision on how things should be run in the Eye (and in the Imperium too) and they are able to back up their view with enough force. Sometimes it works sometimes it does not, but no one can ignore them by M41. 

 

If Chaos would not have a dominating presence to lead its myriad of factions it would crumble into internecine conflict the likes of the Slave Wars. The spot of Warmaster was open for everyone... only Abaddon though proved to be worthy of it. To be a special snowflake is still a viable choice, but in the "modern" politics of the Empire of the Eye this is not a working concept. 

 

Remember, we of Chaos kill each other for sport and only something far more scary than ourselves can keep us in check, fortunately of us Abaddon in plenty scary. 

 

 

We could always just have a backstabbing council of leaders that arose as the result of the Slave Wars, a singular leader was never actually needed and in my case never wanted. They could rise and fall with one another, each time someone taking place, but never lording over everything entirely. It would fit Chaos, and it would allow us to retain our individual importance.

 

As for Abaddon being scary? To me he is not scary, he's boring, and therefore he has no resonance with me as a leader of men. He just so happens to be a boring man with a cool topknot that happens to have a lot of power.

[Tenebris]

 

As for Abaddon being scary? To me he is not scary, he's boring, and therefore he has no resonance with me as a leader of men. He just so happens to be a boring man with a cool topknot that happens to have a lot of power.

 

 

Which my friend is exactly the reason why we needed so much a Black Legion series, an Abaddon series in order to dispel this image of the Sunday villain and present Abaddon as the very real threat to all life in the Warhammer 40k universe. And I can only applaud ADB for his choice of presenting actual life in the Empire of the Eye from the point of view, in the shoes of Abaddon and his Ezekarion. It is this characters afterall who in all those thousands of years have built a legion, returned a legion from the ashes and unleashed all the nine traitor legions upon the Imperium of Man. 

[Vesper]

 

 

 

Which is actually the antithesis of Chaos. Only the strong prosper, the weak perish or are enslaved. A warband who cannot fight for its own survival, for its own piece of hell is unworthy to claim it. A chaos lord who is not able to back up his demands with deadly force is no chaos lord at all. 

 

In this cutthroat context Abaddon became the top dog of this fratricidious collective. Not only that, he also offered many warbands to prosper under the aegis of the Black Legion. He is equally a savior as he is a tyrant and any warband, legion, daemon or lord who cannot back up his claims with force or guile in the politics of the Eye deserves no power, only slavery. 

 

The traitor legions cannot cope with the ascension of the Black Legion since they are so fractured and even the Black Legion suffers from the same problem. The saving grace of the Black Legion though is that they have a very clear vision on how things should be run in the Eye (and in the Imperium too) and they are able to back up their view with enough force. Sometimes it works sometimes it does not, but no one can ignore them by M41. 

 

If Chaos would not have a dominating presence to lead its myriad of factions it would crumble into internecine conflict the likes of the Slave Wars. The spot of Warmaster was open for everyone... only Abaddon though proved to be worthy of it. To be a special snowflake is still a viable choice, but in the "modern" politics of the Empire of the Eye this is not a working concept. 

 

Remember, we of Chaos kill each other for sport and only something far more scary than ourselves can keep us in check, fortunately of us Abaddon in plenty scary. 

 

 

We could always just have a backstabbing council of leaders that arose as the result of the Slave Wars, a singular leader was never actually needed and in my case never wanted. They could rise and fall with one another, each time someone taking place, but never lording over everything entirely. It would fit Chaos, and it would allow us to retain our individual importance.

 

As for Abaddon being scary? To me he is not scary, he's boring, and therefore he has no resonance with me as a leader of men. He just so happens to be a boring man with a cool topknot that happens to have a lot of power.

 

 

Dark Concil for everyone ?

Abaddon doesn't lead everyone and everything. He leads the Black Legion and those willing to have him lead them. Many warbands don't care about Abaddon, or hate him with a burning passion for X or Y, or for the sake of it.

[Loesh]

 

 

As for Abaddon being scary? To me he is not scary, he's boring, and therefore he has no resonance with me as a leader of men. He just so happens to be a boring man with a cool topknot that happens to have a lot of power.

 

 

Which my friend is exactly the reason why we needed so much a Black Legion series, an Abaddon series in order to dispel this image of the Sunday villain and present Abaddon as the very real threat to all life in the Warhammer 40k universe. And I can only applaud ADB for his choice of presenting actual life in the Empire of the Eye from the point of view, in the shoes of Abaddon and his Ezekarion. It is this characters afterall who in all those thousands of years have built a legion, returned a legion from the ashes and unleashed all the nine traitor legions upon the Imperium of Man. 

 

 

So far it's not worked for me, the exact point where Abaddon entered the book is the point where my interest rapidly waned without the buffer of Warp Lore and the Emperors Children themselves to keep my attention.

 

He's just not a character archetype I like, Antichrists just don't do it for me, and I suspect many other people will feel the same.

[Loesh]

 

Dark Concil for everyone ?

Abaddon doesn't lead everyone and everything. He leads the Black Legion and those willing to have him lead them. Many warbands don't care about Abaddon, or hate him with a burning passion for X or Y, or for the sake of it.

 

 

No, Abaddon isn't omnipresent, but he is the one who actually get's things done, that is what I take umbrage with.

[Tenebris]

 

 

Dark Concil for everyone ?

Abaddon doesn't lead everyone and everything. He leads the Black Legion and those willing to have him lead them. Many warbands don't care about Abaddon, or hate him with a burning passion for X or Y, or for the sake of it.

 

 

No, Abaddon isn't omnipresent, but he is the one who actually get's things done, that is what I take umbrage with.

 

 

But if not him who then? Lucius overtaken by his excesses, Fabius so deep in his study of gene lore... who then Ahriman who has yet to cast away the shadows of guilt from the Rubic or Khârn whose butchery is only seldom crossed with brief moments of sanity... then who else, Typhus and his legions of undead or Huron who has yet to claim the Maelstrom for himself and the Red Corsairs, a newborn compared to the other assembled.

 

What about the Primarchs then, Mortarion, Magnus, Fulgrim and Angron now beyond the concerns of legion and duty, mired in the eternal Great Game, or Perturabo and Lorgar, never the ones to lead from the front... Alpharius then... but is he really loyal to Chaos, to humanity?

 

It has to be Abaddon and from reading Talon of Horus, he always knew that, and prepared for this, for the role of Warmaster. He studied, traveled, observed and embraced Chaos for its opportunity but never for its faith. I think of no other capable to wear the mantle of Warmaster. The spot was open to all of them, the Slave Wars were fought, and many many other wars too... only Abaddon was triumphant, only the nascent Black Legion was triumphant. As I see it his title of Warmaster of Chaos is rightful and won with strength of arms and guile in equal measure... the others did not meet the criteria, or were too mired in their passions and devotion to the Chaos Gods to even attempt the climb. 

[Loesh]

 

 

 

But if not him who then? Lucius overtaken by his excesses, Fabius so deep in his study of gene lore... who then Ahriman who has yet to cast away the shadows of guilt from the Rubic or Khârn whose butchery is only seldom crossed with brief moments of sanity... then who else, Typhus and his legions of undead or Huron who has yet to claim the Maelstrom for himself and the Red Corsairs, a newborn compared to the other assembled.

 

What about the Primarchs then, Mortarion, Magnus, Fulgrim and Angron now beyond the concerns of legion and duty, mired in the eternal Great Game, or Perturabo and Lorgar, never the ones to lead from the front... Alpharius then... but is he really loyal to Chaos, to humanity?

 

It has to be Abaddon and from reading Talon of Horus, he always knew that, and prepared for this, for the role of Warmaster. He studied, traveled, observed and embraced Chaos for its opportunity but never for its faith. I think of no other capable to wear the mantle of Warmaster. The spot was open to all of them, the Slave Wars were fought, and many many other wars too... only Abaddon was triumphant, only the nascent Black Legion was triumphant. As I see it his title of Warmaster of Chaos is rightful and won with strength of arms and guile in equal measure... the others did not meet the criteria, or were too mired in their passions and devotion to the Chaos Gods to even attempt the climb. 

 

 

How about all of them? in the throes of their own reasons doing their own things across the galaxy as a side effect of who they are?

 

That would be a far more interesting tale I think. Abaddon may be the only one fit for the role of Warmaster, but I don't think we ever needed a Warmaster.

[Vesper]

 

 

Dark Concil for everyone ?

Abaddon doesn't lead everyone and everything. He leads the Black Legion and those willing to have him lead them. Many warbands don't care about Abaddon, or hate him with a burning passion for X or Y, or for the sake of it.

 

 

No, Abaddon isn't omnipresent, but he is the one who actually get's things done, that is what I take umbrage with.

I can get that. Even though it goes back to the role and purposes of dudes in the Eye that are radically different. And it doesn't make them less interesting. Quite the contrary, actually. If all EC or Death Guard Lords just wanted to be the top dogs of the Eye, that'd be ridiculous and boring.

 

EDIT : and i don't agree with the AntiChrist thing. He is the antichrist of the Imperium, but he is much more than a simple antithesis of the Emperor.

[Loesh]

 

 

 

Dark Concil for everyone ?

Abaddon doesn't lead everyone and everything. He leads the Black Legion and those willing to have him lead them. Many warbands don't care about Abaddon, or hate him with a burning passion for X or Y, or for the sake of it.

 

 

No, Abaddon isn't omnipresent, but he is the one who actually get's things done, that is what I take umbrage with.

I can get that. Even though it goes back to the role and purposes of dudes in the Eye that are radically different. And it doesn't make then less interesting. Quite the contrary, actually. If all EC or Death Guard Lords just wanted to be the top dogs of the Eye, that'd be ridiculous and boring.

 

 

Of course it would, which is mainly why I say it would be best if Chaos had an equal spread that occasionally worked together to get big things done.

[Tenebris]

A Council for a faction which is the paradigm of personal ambition, ruthlessness and devotion to different Dark Gods, each one with different agendas. An untenable position I think. Also no self respecting Chaos Space Marine would follow such a group and I think such a leadership would never come to be actual leadership since most sessions would end up in someone dying. 

 

If one reads Talon of Horus in minutae it is clear that ADB did his research and the destination of the Black Legion and its Warmaster can be glimpsed. It is also clear that the aim of the author is to elaborate more on how life looks in the Eye, how it feels and this is perhaps the true value of the series. As it is Abaddon is a complex character, the Black Legion is a complex faction, a "black leviathan" indeed for it covers so many aspects of Chaos that all is equally viable as it is equally contrary to it, so lets all take a deep breath, applaud ADB one more time and wait for the next book in the series. 

 

The process which made the Black Legion from zero to hero was a gradual one, and only a series can do it justice. The first book was an eye opener, I can't wait for the second one. 

[Loesh]

A Council for a faction which is the paradigm of personal ambition, ruthlessness and devotion to different Dark Gods, each one with different agendas. An untenable position I think. Also no self respecting Chaos Space Marine would follow such a group and I think such a leadership would never come to be actual leadership since most sessions would end up in someone dying. 

 

If one reads Talon of Horus in minutae it is clear that ADB did his research and the destination of the Black Legion and its Warmaster can be glimpsed. It is also clear that the aim of the author is to elaborate more on how life looks in the Eye, how it feels and this is perhaps the true value of the series. As it is Abaddon is a complex character, the Black Legion is a complex faction, a "black leviathan" indeed for it covers so many aspects of Chaos that all is equally viable as it is equally contrary to it, so lets all take a deep breath, applaud ADB one more time and wait for the next book in the series. 

 

The process which made the Black Legion from zero to hero was a gradual one, and only a series can do it justice. The first book was an eye opener, I can't wait for the second one. 

 

Hardly untenable, plenty of works of fiction have done it, and done it well. That there's a good chance you'll get shot during group thinks is...really...pretty much how most Warband group meets work anyways.

 

If the book was an eye opener for you, then great. It did no such thing for me, nor did I get any of the complexity from it...pretty much all of what Abaddon had said rang hollow in my ears, and I was glad when the scenes shifted away from him to something different that did catch my attention. Clarifying something I don't like doesn't always result in me something liking something, just as often it just allows me to more accurately pinpoint why I don't like it.

[Vesper]

 

 

 

 

Dark Concil for everyone ?

Abaddon doesn't lead everyone and everything. He leads the Black Legion and those willing to have him lead them. Many warbands don't care about Abaddon, or hate him with a burning passion for X or Y, or for the sake of it.

 

 

No, Abaddon isn't omnipresent, but he is the one who actually get's things done, that is what I take umbrage with.

I can get that. Even though it goes back to the role and purposes of dudes in the Eye that are radically different. And it doesn't make then less interesting. Quite the contrary, actually. If all EC or Death Guard Lords just wanted to be the top dogs of the Eye, that'd be ridiculous and boring.

 

 

Of course it would, which is mainly why I say it would be best if Chaos had an equal spread that occasionally worked together to get big things done.

 

Man, it's Chaos, not communism or parliamentarism. You don't get an equal share and you don't get to vote and endlessly talk about stuff.

Abaddon (and by extention the Black Legion) is the incarnation of a vision and of a strength. Alexander the Great, Napoleon, William the Conqueror... they were will made flesh and bones. And that's the story of Abaddon. He's somewhere between Achillies and Agamemnon : a great fighter and a peerless commander leading countless warriors. And like Agamemnon (or Alexander) he has to subjugate others to get them in his army in order to finally do what matters. It feels much more interesting and compelling to me than Dark Concil 2.0.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

 

Dark Concil for everyone ?

Abaddon doesn't lead everyone and everything. He leads the Black Legion and those willing to have him lead them. Many warbands don't care about Abaddon, or hate him with a burning passion for X or Y, or for the sake of it.

 

 

No, Abaddon isn't omnipresent, but he is the one who actually get's things done, that is what I take umbrage with.

I can get that. Even though it goes back to the role and purposes of dudes in the Eye that are radically different. And it doesn't make then less interesting. Quite the contrary, actually. If all EC or Death Guard Lords just wanted to be the top dogs of the Eye, that'd be ridiculous and boring.

 

 

Of course it would, which is mainly why I say it would be best if Chaos had an equal spread that occasionally worked together to get big things done.

 

Man, it's Chaos, not communism or parliamentarism. You don't get an equal share and you don't get to vote and endlessly talk about stuff.

Abaddon (and by extention the Black Legion) is the incarnation of a vision and of a strenght. Alexander the Great, Napoleon, William the Conqueror... they were will made flesh and bones. And that's the story of Abaddon. He's somewhere between Achillies and Agamemnon : a great fighter and a peerless commander leading countless warriors. And like Agamemnon (or Alexander) he has to subjugate others to get them in his army in order to finally do what matters. It feels much more interesting and compelling to me than Dark Concil 2.0.

 

 

The word you're looking for is patrimonialism. Its a form of political decay. 

[Loesh]

 

Man, it's Chaos, not communism or parliamentarism. You don't get an equal share and you don't get to vote and endlessly talk about stuff.

 

Abaddon (and by extention the Black Legion) is the incarnation of a vision and of a strenght. Alexander the Great, Napoleon, William the Conqueror... they were will made flesh and bones. And that's the story of Abaddon. He's somewhere between Achillies and Agamemnon : a great fighter and a peerless commander leading countless warriors. And like Agamemnon (or Alexander) he has to subjugate others to get them in his army in order to finally do what matters. It feels much more interesting and compelling to me than Dark Concil 2.0.

 

 

That's great and all, but working under a leader I don't care for is about as compelling as....well actually I have no comparison, because it's not compelling at all, it makes me anti-care.

 

That the other legions have to live under the hovel of his story is more then a little irritating.