The Talon Of Horus

[Wade Garrett]

I agree that Abaddon had to break away from his Heresy era characterization of "Horus's snarling attack dog" to be the new Warmaster. And good riddance.

 

It's trying to reconcile the low key charismatic in Talon with the "subtle as a storm bolter to the chest" warlord in Soul Hunter that trips me up. Yes, yes, we're seeing him through Talos's eyes and at that point he doesn't have any particular reason to be nice to a jumped up mutant from a barely functional warband...but still. (Of course, Huron was charismatic and kind hearted towards the Night Lords and look where that got him).

[Wade Garrett]

Let me clarify a bit:

 

My issue is not so much that Khayon has a pet daemon and a dark eldar ally. Many, many, many Chaos warlords have pet daemons, and many of them have worked for and with the dark eldar (the Soul Drinkers, Death Guard, and the Blood Pact to name a few).

 

What made my suspension of disbelief snap was how selflessly loyal said daemon and eldar were to Khayon, to the point that they'd throw themselves at Horus Reborn on his behalf.

 

I mean, the dark eldar word for traitor also translates as "gambler", "oppurtunist", and "warrior who outplays". On Prospero many of the Thousand Sons were eaten by their own Tutelaries the instant their focus wavered in the face of the Wolves.

 

And these are the beings pulling "Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends" on Khayon's behalf.

 

I don't see it.

[Marshal Rohr]

Khayon did some kind of soul trap on her. She probably has no idea she is his puppet.

[Wade Garrett]

No, the bond between them predates the "keeping her alive/making her die slower" magical mumbo jumbo he has going on. Remember, she wound up in that state while fighting a Greater Daemon of Slaanesh alongside him.

 

There's more going on there than "puppet master and his spellslave" (and I mean that in the sense of loyalty and friendship, not "Khayon and Nefertari, sitting in a tree, K-l-S-S etc.").

 

Which is a rare and noteworthy thing even between Chaos Marine and Chaos Marine, or dark eldar and dark eldar. Between a Chaos Marine AND a dark eldar...

[Lucien Eilam]

What made my suspension of disbelief snap was how selflessly loyal said daemon and eldar were to Khayon, to the point that they'd throw themselves at Horus Reborn on his behalf.

 

I mean, the dark eldar word for traitor also translates as "gambler", "oppurtunist", and "warrior who outplays". On Prospero many of the Thousand Sons were eaten by their own Tutelaries the instant their focus wavered in the face of the Wolves.

 

What do you imagine would have happened to Nefertari if she'd done nothing, and Khayon had died? She may not know that her life literally depends on Khayon's, but I can't see any reason for her to believe any combination of surviving Space Marines/clone primarchs would be amenable to letting her leave that ship alive. There's no indication in the rest of the novel that Khayon's companions are any more tolerant of Xenos at this time than they were during the Great Crusade. She's as reliant on his protection as his sorcery.

 

 

 

But in the Empire of the Eye, inhumans are truly loathed beyond all else. This is the domain of man and daemon, born with the death of an alien empire.

 

And daemonic pacts aren't all the same. Is it really beyond imagination that this one is built on mutual interest, or even bonds of loyalty? Or just that Gyre might have an inkling of what Khayon will do and become in the course of the next 10,000 years?

[Marshal Rohr]

What I was intimating is that the relationship might've been more antagonistic prior to the spell. More in line with how you'd imagine a dark Eldar fighting as allies to a chaos marine to be. I can't remember at the moment if she just died in the fight or if she sacrificed herself for him, though. If she sacrificed herself for him I could understand the criticism, but if she just died and he did some spell that kept her alive part of the spell could be her being loyal to him without realizing she is doing it.

 

The point if the character overall isn't that she's a dark Eldar, dead, or loyal to Khayon. That's all window dressing. She's an expository vehicle to explain things about the universe, like the differing views of the EC and DE on Slaanesh. Unless I'm just going crazy, the Ezekarion and attendant hangers on are like your generic RPG party. You've got bits from all over so he can explore different lore topics in the future. It's not a super friends club anymore than the Mass Effect party was.

[Phoebus]

It's trying to reconcile the low key charismatic in Talon with the "subtle as a storm bolter to the chest" warlord in Soul Hunter that trips me up.

But that's the thing:  Abaddon ultimately shoots Talos with hallucinogens only after the latter has utterly rejected his attempts at recruitment, bonhomie, etc.  At that point, it comes down to pragmatism.

 

Or, put it this way:  what do you think Abaddon's reaction would have been had Iskander and his buddies not decided to join him?  You don't think he would have tried to "force the issue" in a way similar to his methods on Solace. 

[Wade Garrett]

And daemonic pacts aren't all the same. Is it really beyond imagination that this one is built on mutual interest, or even bonds of loyalty?

 

In a word, yes. Having common interests isn't the kind of motivator that has you leaping on hand grenades for someone else, and...bonds of loyalty? Really?

 

Daemons don't do "loyalty". Submission to a stronger being to escape destruction? Short term bargains struck for their own benefit? Yes.

 

But loyalty? The concept is as foreign to them as it is to a school of sharks.

 

Also, Apothecary Fabius has dealt peaceably with the dark eldar in the past.

[Loesh]

I would actually argue that it is *entirely* possible that a Daemon can be a loyal companion, plenty of Daemons are malicious but they are also created from the ever changing tides of the warp and a particularly lucky sorcerer could find a Daemon of his god with a wider more complex spectrum of emotions and a more positive attitude. Granted, this should be rare as hell but still.

[Lucien Eilam]

I can't remember at the moment if she just died in the fight or if she sacrificed herself for him, though.

 

In the fight she attempts a blow which had killed numerous Legion warlords, but Horus was too fast. She was trying to kill him, she didn't throw herself under Worldbreaker or anything.

 

 

And she didn't die. The First Edition exclusive story confirms Nefertari isn't dead and Gyre probably isn't either - its "physical form" was destroyed, but there's a daemonic Prosperine lynx in the story that behaves exactly the same way.

 

 

Daemons don't do "loyalty". Submission to a stronger being to escape destruction? Short term bargains struck for their own benefit? Yes.

 

Do you know what really lies beyond the veil? Can you conceive of what the warp really is?

 

Us.

 

It is us. The truth is that there is nothing in this galaxy but us. It is our emotions, our shadows, our hates and lusts and disgusts that lie in wait on the other side of reality. That’s all. Every thought, every memory, every dream, every nightmare that any of us have ever had.

 

If you can conceive it, it exists in the warp. Every thought, every memory, every dream, every nightmare. Even the ones about loyalty.

[Wade Garrett]

@Phoebus

I'd say no....because of the circumstances involved. He certainly could have thrown the Justaerin and Sargon at them and possibly destroyed them for their defiance...but it wouldn't have been a bloodless victory by any means, and it would have put paid to any hope of stopping Fabius. In that situation I think the best course would be to let them walk away and go to plan B instead of forcing the issue or trying to exact punishment.

 

For that matter, trying to brute force Talos ended poorly, what with the prophet rabble rousing the Night Lords into fratricide.

[Knight of the Raven]

Regardless of whether Wade Garrett is right or wrong (I haven't read Talon of Horus), it's refreshing to see A D-B's writing criticized for once after months of nothing but praise. Maybe he deserves that praise, but I personally found it to get old. Same thing for Abnett, but I recall much criticism about considering the existing lore his personal playground as opposed to something to be respected.

[Wade Garrett]

Again, I'm not trying to draw a line in the sand and proclaim "Yea verily, a character may have this many special one of a kind things, and no more, or else it is bad writing". For starters, I doubt I could even be consistent with it.

 

("Stannis Baratheon w/ flaming sword, powerful sorceress-priestess who thinks he's God, and unfailingly loyal retainer whose fingers he cut off= pass

 

Khayon = fail

 

Yep, I feel dirty typing that out even in jest.)

 

All I can say is that, in my opinion, the amount of unique cool stuff Khayon had and the way it was presented was too much for me, personally.

[Loesh]

Again, I'm not trying to draw a line in the sand and proclaim "yea verily, a character may have this many special one of a kind things, and no more, or else it is bad writing". For starters, I doubt I could even be consistent with it.

 

("Stannis Baratheon w/ flaming sword, powerful sorceress-priestess who thinks he's God, and unfailingly loyal retainer whose fingers he cut off= pass

 

Khayon = fail

 

Yep, feel dirty typing that out even in jest)

 

All I can say is that, in my opinion, the amount of unique cool stuff Khayon had and the way it was presented was too much for me, personally.

 

If it makes you feel better, what I took issue with was Daemon related, just not concerning Loyalty. I really thought there should of been *way more* consequence to him losing control of the Ragged Knight towards the start rather then it getting banished anyway and his party emerging...relatively...unscathed.

[Marshal Rohr]

Regardless of whether Wade Garrett is right or wrong (I haven't read Talon of Horus), it's refreshing to see A D-B's writing criticized for once after months of nothing but praise. Maybe he deserves that praise, but I personally found it to get old. Same thing for Abnett, but I recall much criticism about considering the existing lore his personal playground as opposed to something to be respected.

That's hardly valid criticism at all. Name for me, specifically, exactly what he has turned into his personal playground? Because, to my mind, he has only expanded on things that have been around and never fleshed out. How, from anything he has ever said or done, can you honestly say he doesn't respect the background. It's the fans who lose their when he says stuff like 'Abaddon is actually a really good general' and 'the space wolves aren't really executioners'.

Again, I'm not trying to draw a line in the sand and proclaim "Yea verily, a character may have this many special one of a kind things, and no more, or else it is bad writing". For starters, I doubt I could even be consistent with it.

("Stannis Baratheon w/ flaming sword, powerful sorceress-priestess who thinks he's God, and unfailingly loyal retainer whose fingers he cut off= pass

Khayon = fail

Yep, I feel dirty typing that out even in jest.)

All I can say is that, in my opinion, the amount of unique cool stuff Khayon had and the way it was presented was too much for me, personally.

At first it doesn't register, agreed. His automata and super ship, but then again Khayon isn't Talos. He had to have a foundation on which to grow into the Antichrist's XO. He wasn't supposed to be like Talos. He's a big deal.

[Wade Garrett]

I believe KotR is saying that Dan Abnett is criticized for not respecting the old lore (Calth not being a clear-cut victory for the Ultramarines, Executioner Wolves, etc.), not ADB.

[Vesper]

I kind of understand that point of view, but I'm already past that.

I mean, I Khayon was the dude with all the happy companions he loves so much ready to sacrifice themselves for him to smile, he wouldn't have the need that drives him, Lheor and Telemachion into searching themselves and others for a greater bond, for brotherhood and purpose.

His feelings toward Neferati are likely to become something of an issue. We know she'll die (well, she's already kind of dead, IIRC), if she's taken away from him. And we know she ends up taken to Commorragh by Dark Eldars and that Abaddon unleashes the Black Legion on the Dark City only for her.

That's probably not something that will make him well loved by Dark Eldars or Black Legionnaires.

[Phoebus]

@Phoebus

I'd say no....because of the circumstances involved. He certainly could have thrown the Justaerin and Sargon at them and possibly destroyed them for their defiance...but it wouldn't have been a bloodless victory by any means, and it would have put paid to any hope of stopping Fabius. In that situation I think the best course would be to let them walk away and go to plan B instead of forcing the issue or trying to exact punishment.

 

For that matter, trying to brute force Talos ended poorly, what with the prophet rabble rousing the Night Lords into fratricide.

But that's the thing:  he didn't try brute force with Talos.  His gambit, the hallucinogens, amounts to overt manipulation.  Horus Rising Abaddon may have tried brute force, but the overtures and "memory walks" of Talon of Horus strike me as rather similar to what we see in Soul Hunter.

[Marshal Rohr]

I believe KotR is saying that Dan Abnett is criticized for not respecting the old lore (Calth not being a clear-cut victory for the Ultramarines, Executioner Wolves, etc.), not ADB.

Gotcha. Disregard that then.

[Phoebus]

Criticism for criticism's sake is worth what exactly?  Not to be confrontational, but how - or, better yet, why - is it refreshing to see criticism for a book one hasn't even read?

[Loesh]

Criticism for criticism's sake is worth what exactly?  Not to be confrontational, but how - or, better yet, why - is it refreshing to see criticism for a book one hasn't even read?

 

Because it's like, so counter culture man.

[Wade Garrett]

@Phoebus

I disagree that "shoot the sorcery hating puritan with bolt rounds that will send him on an acid trip to chat up the Chaos Gods" doesn't count as brute force. ;)

 

Still, this is probably more of a criticism of Abaddon as portrayed in Soul Hunter than it is of Talon. And heaven knows I've praised Abnett for giving Unrembered Empire Guilliman more depth than KNF's roman statue speaking in action movie cliches ("Whatever does not kill me isn't trying hard enough!") and McNeil for snapping Perturabo out of his "Me angry! Me smash random Warsmith!" from Crimson Fist. So....

[Phoebus]

Like I said, "overt manipulation". Certainly not as brutal as two regular storm bolter shells.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

Criticism for criticism's sake is worth what exactly? Not to be confrontational, but how - or, better yet, why - is it refreshing to see criticism for a book one hasn't even read?

Because it's like, so counter culture man.

I don't really believe that this is what KotR was saying. Even though I disagree with Wade's . . . I guess you could say his passion over the matter, rather than the content of it, I do see merit in this conversation that has arisen. Even though, at least so far, Wade seems to be alone in his criticism, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is invalid. And a lot of good can come from these kind of conversations, as people tend to look deeper into matters when they are trying to defend their view from others than when just sharing similar points of interest. At least, when it comes to internet discussions where the crowd doesn't always degenerate into mud-flinging straw men after five minutes, and that isn't to say that "Aw man, remember when . . .! And then . . .!" types of conversations aren't like the best ever between nerds like us.

[Phoebus]

Cormac, we're not talking about criticism.  We're talking about someone who didn't read the book saying they found it refreshing it was receiving criticism because it came as a contrast to the typical praise the author received.  How is that constructive or helpful in any way?