The Talon Of Horus

[Conn Eremon]

Cormac, we're not talking about criticism. We're talking about someone who didn't read the book saying they found it refreshing it was receiving criticism because it came as a contrast to the typical praise the author received. How is that constructive or helpful in any way?

How constructive or helpful is it to say that? None, I suppose. Is it supposed to though? To express interest in a conversation, for whatever reason? If the answer to that is yes, then wouldn't what I quoted also fall under that broad umbrella?

 

Or do you mean how constructive or helpful could the conversation be to KotR? It really depends on the person, right? It would be to me, if I hadn't yet read it. Sure, it spoils some of the story, but spoilers never bothered me, and I never really understood why they bother others, to be honest. I know it does, so I try to be careful and point it out if someone else does, but all it does is help me. Should I read it? Well, if all I read is praise, that could mean one of two things. Either I really should, or all I am reading is worthless. If all I see is praise, I am going to go with the latter, because it'll be impossible to determine if the praise is warranted or if it's just rampant fanboyism. And AD-B certainly has those, and has earned them. But if I see some criticism amidst the praise, preferably at least close to equal, and if I see how the critics defend their view and the praisers defense of theirs, I might have a closer look on how I might feel of the book, and determine if I feel it would be worth my time to me. I will be able to distinguish the warranted praise from the unwarranted, the relevant criticism from the irrelevant, based on my own opinions and thoughts on the matters discussed. My time is finite, and even though I spare some of it to read and I am a fast reader, I have a miles-long list of stuff I want to read, not all of it 40k related. This discussion would certainly help me determine where on that list I might want to put this book. A lot more than seeing nothing but praise, or nothing but criticism, which provides no use to anyone but those involved.

 

I have no idea if that is what KotR might have meant or not, but that is certainly why I could say this was refreshing.

[Knight of the Raven]

Yes, I meant Abnett with the playground part. He changed the Alpha Legion (though the twin primarchs apparently were there before Legion) and the Space Wolves from what I gathered in this forum.

I consider it refreshing because it finally shows two sides to A D-B's stories, when previously before I saw only one. Explained criticism helps me sort out fanboyism from something that's closer to reality, just like explained praise helps me sort out biaised rage from something that's also closer to reality.

 

And allow me to be cynical here, but if people are allowed to complain about 'whinging' whenever it reaches their tolerance threshold, I most certainly can be happy there's finally some criticism amidst an ocean of praise, and doubly so when it's explained better than 'because the author sucks and kicks puppies.'

 

EDIT: Cormac Airt explained it better than I ever could (minus the cynical part, and it's all to his honor).

[Phoebus]

How constructive or helpful is it to say that? None, I suppose. Is it supposed to though? To express interest in a conversation, for whatever reason?

Look, if KotR is interested in conversation, then that's great.  The very directly expressed sentiment is saw, however, is that it's "refreshing to see A D-B's writing criticized for once... "

 

I consider it refreshing because it finally shows two sides to A D-B's stories, when previously before I saw only one. Explained criticism helps me sort out fanboyism from something that's closer to reality, just like explained praise helps me sort out biaised rage from something that's also closer to reality.

On the one hand, I would offer to you that constructive (and sometimes just negative) criticism of individual parts of A D-B's books can be found throughout this forum.  I know for a fact that Betrayer had a good deal of it.

 

On the other hand, I just find the sentiment you expressed to be - no offense intended - bizarre.  "Refreshing" how?  As stated, your opinion comes down to "I just got tired of hearing about how good this guy's books are".  But what if they just happen to be good, which is the general consensus?  What if negative reactions largely aren't warranted?  Meaning no disrespect to Wade, as his points certainly merited discussion, but without having read the book yourself how is it objective to assume the negative perspective somehow trumps the predominately positive sentiments expressed thus far?

 

It's one thing to say, "Hmmm, interesting how Wade has brought up these points and all these other guys are saying the book is great without qualifying their opinions."  It's another thing altogether to say, "Finally, someone is saying something negative about this book!  It was so boring only hearing about how good it is!"

[Conn Eremon]

Meaning no disrespect to Wade, as his points certainly merited discussion, but without having read the book yourself how is it objective to assume the negative perspective somehow trumps the predominately positive sentiments expressed thus far?

Oh, definitely. Nobody said that, though. What was said is that criticism in a sea of approval can offer context as to the nature of the praises that otherwise might be absent, and as such that island of criticism can be more useful to someone who hasn't read the book themselves than the sea of approval on its own can be. That definitely does not mean that the criticism trumps the praise, but that in cases like this is kind of necessary in order for either to have any value to an uninformed observer. Just like in Deliverance Lost, which one could argue is on the opposite end of this spectrum, someone who hasn't read it would find it refreshing to see some praise for it, as otherwise they wouldn't be able to tell if the hate is warranted or just over-exaggerated bickering. Because the truth is that it is almost always both, with one's own preferences deciding which is true for them.

[Marshal Rohr]

It certainly came across as 'I'm glad to see ADB get taken down a peg'. It's like people want his stuff to be disliked just because it's popular.

[A D-B]

Ha! I love you, Wade. You're the best.

 

 

I consider it refreshing because it finally shows two sides to A D-B's stories, when previously before I saw only one. 

 

Talon may be a weird choice for that revelation, dude. It's on track to be my best-reviewed novel yet, to the point it's got so much great feedback that I feel awkward talking about it - and end up talking about it significantly less than any other novel for that reason.  I'm used to good reviews, because I'm a lucky son of a beach, but the feedback for this one has literally left me speechless at times.

 

Off the top of my head, Helsreach, Soul Hunter, and Betrayer all had more criticism on the B&C (though, thankfully, not very much).

[Phoebus]

Cormac, you and I are reading different posts, man.  What KotR proposed is the equivalent of someone saying it's refreshing to read a negative review of a restaurant that's been widely positively received... even though you've never eaten there.  I'm at a loss as to how that thought process even starts.

 

The usefulness you're proposing might be applicable in a general sense: to a prospective reader who is undecided on buying book, and is looking for a variety of opinions that might help them make an informed decision.  Show me where this was mentioned in the posts in question, though. The closest to that is KotR basically saying that it easier for them to determine which opinion of a book they may never read is valid.

 

EDIT:  Anyways, it is what it is.  I've expressed my puzzlement, you've offered your opinion, KotR has expressed their qualifiers.  We can all move on.

[Conn Eremon]

Cormac, you and I are reading different posts, man.  What KotR proposed is the equivalent of someone saying it's refreshing to read a negative review of a restaurant that's been widely positively received... even though you've never eaten there.  I'm at a loss as to how that thought process even starts.

 

The usefulness you're proposing might be applicable in a general sense: to a prospective reader who is undecided on buying book, and is looking for a variety of opinions that might help them make an informed decision.  Show me where this was mentioned in the posts in question, though. The closest to that is KotR basically saying that it easier for them to determine which opinion of a book they may never read is valid.

Maybe we are, but then what I was "proposing" was how I would find use in it, just like how I would find use in a "negative review of a restaurant that's been widely positively received," I wasn't trying to put words in KotR's mouth. But even if KotR isn't a prospective reader undecided on the book, I wouldn't say that makes what I said inapplicable. If the book hadn't made my list at all, for instance, then reading about it here is the most I'll get. If anything, I'd say that makes what I was saying all the more relevant. As an example, the end of the Soul Drinkers saga. I read a few books, but the series didn't catch my attention well enough, and after a few years go by my thinking goes I either start it up again from the beginning or let it go. I chose the latter, and so what I read of it here and elsewhere is all I have, and will have, of it. I'm not saying that this will give the books justice, far from it. The age old truism of "read it and discover for yourself" is always applicable. But when reading it is off the table, by choice or otherwise . . .

 

But I don't know, honestly I think this escalated further than it needed to.

 

EDIT: And considering the edit of your post that I missed, I suppose we're in agreement on that score.

[Wade Garrett]

Ha! I love you, Wade. You're the best.

 

Well. This is awkward.

 

I know that I have expended much time and many words explaining how the relationship between Gyre, Neferata, and Khayon is THE WORST THING EVER...but this is not a book that I'll never re-read, nor one that I'll be trading in at a second hand bookshop lest its contents pollute the rest of my bookshelf.

 

It's just...you give me a daemon, a Chaos Sorcerer, and a dark eldar who seem to be genuinely loyal to each other, and while I'm spluttering "What? Why? How?" we're away on the Quest for Ezekyle with no time for flashbacks.

 

I understand that this is the story of the genesis of the Black Legion, and some things have to be left for future novels, but it still rankled...whenever Lheor and his merry men weren't onstage to distract me from my sulking.

[tgjensen]

Also, what was up with the Horus clone remembering Abaddon? Just because it shares DNA with the original doesn't mean it gets his memories, that's not how clones work at all. Am I right guys?

 

Jeez.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

Also, what was up with the Horus clone remembering Abaddon? Just because it shares DNA with the original doesn't mean it gets his memories, that's not how clones work at all. Am I right guys?

 

Jeez.

The Primarchs have pre-conditioned knowledge, it's certainly possible for Fabius to give Horus pre-conditioned memories.

[Loesh]

Ha! I love you, Wade. You're the best.

I consider it refreshing because it finally shows two sides to A D-B's stories, when previously before I saw only one.

Talon may be a weird choice for that revelation, dude. It's on track to be my best-reviewed novel yet, to the point it's got so much great feedback that I feel awkward talking about it - and end up talking about it significantly less than any other novel for that reason. I'm used to good reviews, because I'm a lucky son of a beach, but the feedback for this one has literally left me speechless at times.

Off the top of my head, Helsreach, Soul Hunter, and Betrayer all had more criticism on the B&C (though, thankfully, not very much).

Aurelian is clearly your worst piece of work, because you made Lorgar a godmode sue who is a more powerful Psyker then Magnus.

....I am being facetious, in case it was hard to tell.

[Wade Garrett]

"Clones that don't share the original's memories? What sort of backwards, banging rocks together to make fire civilization can't make clones that have all the original's memory and skills?"

-Fabius Bile

[Loesh]

"Clones that don't share the original's memories? What sort of backwards, banging rocks together to make fire civilization can't make clones that have all the original's memory and skills?"

-Fabius Bile

 

You say it in jest, but that's something Fabius probably would say.

 

Scratch that, at some point in the Warhammer novels, it's something that I want him to say.

[Emperors Immortals]

"Clones that don't share the original's memories? What sort of backwards, banging rocks together to make fire civilization can't make clones that have all the original's memory and skills?"

-Fabius Bile

Love it.

 

There's also the old ways; teaching. Video files and training the way nature intended.

 

OR creating a tulku of daemonic substance and merging it with the clones flesh to create one unified entity. If we can do it with DaemonEngines, FabulousBill can refine it and take it to another level.

 

And to be honest about the novel, there are a few things that did annoy me, a couple of structural problems and convoluted phrases BUT this is the first 40k novel I've enjoyed. Most don't get finished besides Gods If Mars and Betrayer, which had many kevels if parental angst.

 

All in all a well crafted novel introducing fresh and modern takes on classic themes, will buy again.

[mc warhammer]

eh. 40k seems to believe in genetic/flesh memory. marines eating people and seeing what they saw, gene-seed giving new generations of marines visions of the heresy (blood angels if I remember correctly) or passing on personality traits, primarchs being born able to do ridiculous stuff. I can buy horus clone with horus memories by what I understand of the universe's logic.

[Loesh]

eh. 40k seems to believe in genetic/flesh memory. marines eating people and seeing what they saw, gene-seed giving new generations of marines visions of the heresy (blood angels if I remember correctly) or passing on personality traits, primarchs being born able to do ridiculous stuff. I can buy horus clone with horus memories by what I understand of the universe's logic.

 

Well not only that but, memory/intelligence transfer is a thing that actually happens sometimes. For example in perfect, someone is able to manipulate Dark Eldar technology to transfer their memories from one body to another.

 

Perfect is also why I like Nick Kyme, think the guy gets way too much flak.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

 

Ha! I love you, Wade. You're the best.

Well. This is awkward.

 

I know that I have expended much time and many words explaining how the relationship between Gyre, Neferata, and Khayon is THE WORST THING EVER...but this is not a book that I'll never re-read, nor one that I'll be trading in at a second hand bookshop lest its contents pollute the rest of my bookshelf.

 

It's just...you give me a daemon, a Chaos Sorcerer, and a dark eldar who seem to be genuinely loyal to each other, and while I'm spluttering "What? Why? How?" we're away on the Quest for Ezekyle with no time for flashbacks.

 

I understand that this is the story of the genesis of the Black Legion, and some things have to be left for future novels, but it still rankled...whenever Lheor and his merry men weren't onstage to distract me from my sulking.

 

To be perfectly honest, I found the relationship between Neferata and Khayon to be the weirdest. Gyre I can sort of see, but Gyre + Neferata and Neferata + Khayon makes little sense to me, and I won't rehash your arguments against it and masquerade them as mine. Because you've said what I've wanted to say.

[Son of Carnelian]

[Pasted from another Talon of Horus thread.] With all apologies and even more respect to AD-B, written the style of the now-classic Dude, Where's My Landspeeder:

+++

"Look at all this awesome stuff I killed!' Abaddon remarked with a wickedly cruel grin as we walked around the hold of the Vengeful Spirit. 'Sure would be cool if you saw me do it. But here it is, in my trophy room!"

"So, ah...' I began, acutely aware of Abaddon's golden eyes studying me. Man, those eyes freaked me out. Have I mentioned how crazy his eyes are? Right. 'When did you learn literally everything about all of us? That seems a little... obsessive. Did you memorize the legion rolls of honor or something?"

Abaddon didn't reply at first. He seem preoccupied with looking for his topknot. It appeared he had misplaced it during his pilgrimage, or perhaps amongst the detritus of his museum to his travels.

"Oh come now Khayon,' he scolded. 'You don't want to hear about all that, do you?"

"Dude,' replied Lheor with a grunt. 'Just acknowledge that you did. I get that you're 'a bad enough dude to save the president,' but don't you think that leaving your audience in constant confusion kind of distracts from that? Like... it seems petty."

"Maaaaaaaaaaaaaybe." Abaddon batted his eyelashes at us like a schoolgirl charming her crush. It reminded me of that one time that Nefertari did this totally amazing thing with her tongue-- [iNQUISITORIAL RECORD CENSORS FUTHER MUSINGS ON THIS TOPIC] ...And so me and the Dark Eldar chick are totally doing it. What? I can't talk about that here? Okay. Fine. Where was I? Oh yes, Abaddon doing the creepy eyelash thing.

"So...' Abaddon asked after the awkward silence had passed. 'What's up with Telemachon? You kinda... mind scrubbed him? Or not? It seems rather unclear."

"It's mysterious, you enormous git,' I pouted. 'Besides, I thought you knew everything."

"I do...' Abaddon mused. 'Except how to stop my new iPhone from bending!"

We all laughed uproariously at this remark. Not that it was all that amusing, you understand. It just seemed like our characters had all given way to his awesomeness. Lheor didn't even protest when Abaddon's seer Sargon totally stuck his young and nubile fingers into his mind and put Abaddon into the World Eater's memories. In fact, Lheor basically stopped mattering past the time when we found the Vengeful Spirit. Poor blighter carries a heavy bolter. How do you contribute in a fight between monsters and demigods with that? Whatever. Sucker never had a chance. Damn shame too. His bluntness might have helped alleviate some of the serious stuff with the Fabius later.

Oh, by the way, did I mention my wolf Gyre died there? Totally died in a super horrific way. I keep forgetting to mourn her though. Eh, I'll get around to it.

Anyway, the whole incident kinda clued me in that we had taken a backstage to the Warmaster. I mean, he wasn’t the Warmaster right then but pretty soon. Like, hopefully before the end of the book. Who knows at this point?

Wow, this story has gone on for a really long time. How many more of these accounts do you need?

[iNTERROGATOR REPLIES WITH SERIES’ LENGTH. KHAYON COMMENCES GROSS SOBBING FOR 4 MINUTES AND 32 SECONDS.]

+++

So contrary to what you might think based on the above, I liked the book a lot. A lot a lot. The third act didn't do as much for me, though. I loved all the character work that got done in the earlier, comparatively quieter parts of the book. But I'm weird in that respect, I acknowledge. Lots of people come to Warhammer 40,000 for planet-quaking action and I won't deny them their pleasures. Me though? Started tearing up in Outro. Sigismund man, he knows the score. I know that fight ends poorly for him but man, I am so ready for some Aragorn-level Return of the King in book two. Overall, another fantastic work by AD-B. Go buy it!

Also, I am making that Khayon dating sim. It's gonna happen.

[b1soul]

A CSM sorcerer who is affectionate with a daemon wolf and who loves[?] a Dark Eldar female. Some 40K purists might find this to be out of place in the grimdark of the 41st millienium. I'm actually OK with it. Depends on how well the authour executes the relationships

It reads a bit like a 40K D&D band of adventurers...but I find it pretty entertaining. Frankly, I'm a bit sick of the whole "everyone hates everyone in 40K" idea

[Loesh]

A CSM sorcerer who is affectionate with a daemon wolf and who loves[?] a Dark Eldar female. Some 40K purists might find this to be out of place in the grimdark of the 41st millienium. I'm actually OK with it. Depends on how well the authour executes the relationships

It reads a bit like a 40K D&D band of adventurers...but I find it pretty entertaining. Frankly, I'm a bit sick of the whole "everyone hates everyone in 40K" idea

 

I'm not actually, I believe the concept of everyone hating everyone else is integral to the Warhammer universe.

 

That said, there should be individual exceptions and some teeth clenched teamwork now and again is pretty entertaining.

[Scribe]

I think it may even have been called out directly in the book, but to me its about Khayon (and the marines in his merry band) looking for companionship, brotherhood, which is the void that Abaddon swoops in to fulfill.

 

All Khayon's relationships focus on this.

 

His sister.

His brother/friend before they become marines.

His daemon.

His eldar.

His mentor.

 

The whole book to me was about the relationships between a Marine who has lost his legion, lost his brothers, and is drifting from his mentor, and is looking for something more.

 

You then have the relationships between a Dark Eldar, and a Daemon (humorously he cannot understand his female companions...but who gets women eh?).

You have a relationship with a past foe.

 

And you have Abby himself, coming in to unit, and forge a brotherhood, a new legion, by and for the legionaries. 

[Captain Tezdal]

Ha! I love you, Wade. You're the best.

 

 

 

I consider it refreshing because it finally shows two sides to A D-B's stories, when previously before I saw only one.

 

 

Talon may be a weird choice for that revelation, dude. It's on track to be my best-reviewed novel yet, to the point it's got so much great feedback that I feel awkward talking about it - and end up talking about it significantly less than any other novel for that reason.  I'm used to good reviews, because I'm a lucky son of a beach, but the feedback for this one has literally left me speechless at times.

 

Off the top of my head, Helsreach, Soul Hunter, and Betrayer all had more criticism on the B&C (though, thankfully, not very much).

People critiqued Helsreach? That book made me want to burn witches, purge xenos and wear black.

[Knight of the Raven]

Haha, yes, Talon of Horus might be a bad source of criticism, A D-B. I might have not looked enough, or I simply wasn't around back then, but I didn't find much criticism for the books you mentioned.

 

I guess I just like criticism more than praise, regardless of whether they're warranted or not. I know I welcome the former much more than the latter for my own writing. Probably because I never believe the praise and always believe the criticism, haha.

 

That said...

 

I don't consider myself in the wrong for having this opinion and stating it. As such I won't apologize for these. I do however recognize, admit, understand and accept that my comment was unhelpful and my "cynical" tidbit petty and these I do apologize for.

[Vrakas]

40k D&D adventure is exactly what it read like. But that's why I love it. 1 it's a good read. 2 I get to rip scenes directly from it for Black Crusade games I run and I look like a badass gm.