b1soul Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 I thought the point of the "fight" with the Wolf Lord was that he'd given a sorcerer his true name. And then he makes the mistake that costs him his life. ‘I am Eyarik Born-of-Fire,’ he says. ‘Thirsty is my axe for the blood of traitors.’ Is this fight described in detail? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3942057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Is this fight described in detail? It's not much of a fight, but yes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3942121 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disciple of Fulgrim Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 A couple of clarifying points: My gripe isn’t that Khayon is a top notch Sorcerer – I’d expect Abaddon to recruit nothing less. It’s with the diversity and strength of his powers. The stuff I mentioned in my review is only about half of what he does in ToH, almost all of which is fine by me. (Though his ability to reprogram minds, as he does with Telemachon, goes into the “stretching it” category as far as I’m concerned, when added to his additional abilities of being able to reverse aging and also prevent death.) And some of the more minor stuff was actually limited, which was nice. (I.e. his ability to communicate telepathically is blocked a couple of times, and he’s only able to telekinetically crush the void serpent’s mind because it had been weakened by the Firetide and the Tlaloc’s guns.) But dragging the Tlaloc behind the Vengeful Spirit for months, then cloaking it, then tossing it at Harmony like a spear? With no apparent outside assistance, and at little cost? That’s way more than pulling an X-Wing out of a swamp. I could buy that sort of thing coming from the Emperor or Magnus, but anyone else? – no way. (Rationalizing this by saying the Eye ramped up Khayon’s powers is tempting, if convenient – as long as you’re willing to apply that logic to every other Sorcerer in the Eye, and also cancel the effect when they leave it.) All of which led to my original question of “is there anything this guy can’t do?” (Has any other Chaos Sorcerer ever done anything comparable? Ahriman maybe?) As far as the fight with the Horus clone goes, I realize fictional fight scenes are just that, and not tactical after-action reports. But partway through those four pages, I began to wonder “Where’s Abaddon?” Regardless of where they may have started in the room, everyone else on Team Abaddon was able to come to Khayon’s aid faster than Abby, which just struck me as odd. (Though now that I think about it, at least a few of Falkus’ Secondborn Justaerin also seem to have sat out the opening rounds of this fight. Protecting Abaddon maybe, or waiting for him to make a move?) At the end of the day (or the book in this case,) neither of these criticisms was/is a big deal to me. Magic in fiction (or roleplay) is notoriously tricky to handle, and I can (and have) mentally dealt with my concerns about Khayon's powers by simply hand waving them away with a “Tzeentch – just as planned!” And as far as the fight scene goes, the “Rule of Cool” applies. I still enjoyed ToH, will definitely pick up the sequel and would recommend this book to any Chaos Space Marine fan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3942211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 To haul the space ship, I'm guessing a significant ritual was needed. Probably sacrificed a few crewmembers as well. It's not something done on a battlefield. As to "reprogramming" the EC, well that's fully within the Pavoni power sphere. Heck what was the name of the TS that changed his gene sequencing to sacrifice his own psychic abilities? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3942215 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 It took a lot of time and effort though: was a huge exertion and at great cost. The span of a few paragraphs cannot do that justice! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3942290 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 "My name is X, Born-of-Fire" sounds a lot more like a deed name than a true name, though. Not to mention "I will loudly announce my true name on a battlefield of maleficarum users who can gain unlimited power over someone if they know their true name" is sub-idiot levels of dumb. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3942331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 "My name is X, Born-of-Fire" sounds a lot more like a deed name than a true name, though. For a Fenrisian, there's more truth in that than the name they were given at birth. See Howl of the Hearthworld for more of that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3942338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 As far as the Kibre and the Justaerin go, is being daemon linked a gift or a curse? I'm sure AD-B intends it as some shade of grey, but other that enhanced tactical synchronization etc. is there a reason to leave them all possessed? I was under the impression that they were planning on leaving them possessed, not due to any overall difficulty but because it makes them easier to control/utilize. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3942588 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 "My name is X, Born-of-Fire" sounds a lot more like a deed name than a true name, though. For a Fenrisian, there's more truth in that than the name they were given at birth. See Howl of the Hearthworld for more of that. Their true name is the only name that is able to be manipulated however, if 'Prospero Burns' is what we go by when true names are actually used. ie the whole Bear/Bjorn situation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3942591 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 That is a mistranslation error, not a nickname. In Howl of the Hearthworld, it's shown that names like above are their true names, not their birth names. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3942601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 "My name is X, Born-of-Fire" sounds a lot more like a deed name than a true name, though. For a Fenrisian, there's more truth in that than the name they were given at birth. See Howl of the Hearthworld for more of that. My thoughts exactly! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3942610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Khayon wasn't necessarily hauling the entire 2 KM ship. All he had to do to move the ship would be to control the ship via psychic power (aka, hitting the accelerator with his mind), which isn't a huge feat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3942646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 . . . Wouldn't that be harder? I mean, it's not like the only thing that keeps a ship moving is a single guy hitting the gas. I mean, at least pushing the ship is just that, pushing it. But mentally doing the job of hundreds of people, simultaneously, who could be operating anywhere on the ship, concentrated on the bridge and engine decks? All the while cloaking it? For how long? No, I have a lot better time believing he just reached out and pulled it along. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3942650 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 As far as the Kibre and the Justaerin go, is being daemon linked a gift or a curse? I'm sure AD-B intends it as some shade of grey, but other that enhanced tactical synchronization etc. is there a reason to leave them all possessed? I was under the impression that they were planning on leaving them possessed, not due to any overall difficulty but because it makes them easier to control/utilize. The thing is that outside of combat, they're actually themselves. The Daemon only kick in when things get messy. So yeah, overall it's a boon. Even though they almost died to end up linked up that way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3942664 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Khayon is my only problem with the book. I know AD-B didn't create the character, and yeah I understand he is Abaddons top dog but I don't like how powerful he seems. Making Magnus bow? Was that litteral? It's a matter of personal opinion but I feel that using a relatively obscure character Iike Khayon to demonstrate Abaddons power over Magnus is a bit ... Meh. Again opinion. All this is only exacerbated by the ship dragging, the Dark Eldar pet, the demolecularizing of the SW etc. Some of this is fine... just all at once is a little ...meh. I feel that if he can do all of this, where will the struggle be? He turns himself over to the imperium and we know he's super powerful and since Abaddon is destined to tear down the Imperium it leaves me a little... uninvested in the character (and narrator). *reason for edit: spelling Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3942690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 In his IA Ahriman managed to align three planets with his will. Khayon was one of the inner circle of Ahriman. Towing a ship is considered standard practice for this guys Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3942718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 That is a mistranslation error, not a nickname. In Howl of the Hearthworld, it's shown that names like above are their true names, not their birth names. Yeah, I get the difference but the Emperor's name is not 'the Emperor' but it's implied in Prospero Burns the reason he changed whatever his real name was, was so he couldn't be controlled by sorcery. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3942748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Khayon is my only problem with the book. I know AD-B didn't create the character, and yeah I understand he is Abaddons top dog but I don't like how powerful he seems. Making Magnus bow? Was that litteral? It's a matter of personal opinion but I feel that using a relatively obscure character Iike Khayon to demonstrate Abaddons power over Magnus is a bit ... Meh. Again opinion. All this is only exacerbated by the ship dragging, the Dark Eldar pet, the demolecularizing of the SW etc. Some of this is fine just all at once is a little meh. I feel that if he can do all of this, where will the struggle be? He turns himself over to the imperium and we know he's super powerful and since Abaddons destined to tear down the Imperium it leaves me a little I in uninvested in the character (and narrator). We'll see exactly how it goes down, but regarding Daemon Princes/Primarchs, being a patron of the Chaos Gods give you a great boost in power, but also leaves to even more susceptible to things that counter that power specifically, ie. a vampire being super strong and fast etc. but a image of religious devotion being able to stop them in their tracks. I'm sure there would be some sorcerous way to bring Magnus to his knees. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3942752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 That is a mistranslation error, not a nickname. In Howl of the Hearthworld, it's shown that names like above are their true names, not their birth names. Yeah, I get the difference but the Emperor's name is not 'the Emperor' but it's implied in Prospero Burns the reason he changed whatever his real name was, was so he couldn't be controlled by sorcery. Yes, but 'Emperor' would be more like 'Bear,' and not like 'Eyarik Born-of-fire.' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3942755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 That is a mistranslation error, not a nickname. In Howl of the Hearthworld, it's shown that names like above are their true names, not their birth names.Yeah, I get the difference but the Emperor's name is not 'the Emperor' but it's implied in Prospero Burns the reason he changed whatever his real name was, was so he couldn't be controlled by sorcery. Yes, but 'Emperor' would be more like 'Bear,' and not like 'Eyarik Born-of-fire.' Seeing as how Hearthworld and Talon are written by the same person, I'll assume for the time being that, that was what Aaron was intending and also a reason why Khayon has so many different names to the greater Imperium. (the people privileged to know he exists anyway) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3942763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deathspectersgt7 Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Just finished it 10 minutes ago. Liked it, not a fan of traitors but I look forward to the next. Some people over analyze things to much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3942776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volt Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I don't really see what's wrong with Khayon's actions, psykers have always been incredibly powerful, and as Khayon appears to be Beta level, his actions are fully justified. Beta and Alpha Psykers are supposed to be able to obliterate enemy armies, which is why the Imperium typically kills them on the spot unless they can be immediately contained. Also, biomancy is a school of power focused entirely on manipulating organic tissue, and reversing aging is incredibly easy if you have small enough tools. Given that psykers completely bypass technology, there's nothing stopping them from lengthening telomere caps on Genes or converting cells into STEM Cells. But when you converse with Beta or Alpha level psykers, you don't address them by their first or last names. You call them god. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3942865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 If ADB has any flaw in his writing at all (not so much a flaw but...) then it's that a lot of his characters seem to special snowflakes/rule of cool. You could argue that that is why they are main characters with stories centred around them. I don't think it matters that Khayon is overpowered or whatever, because that is one of the reasons Abaddon picked him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3943059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgjensen Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I don't really see what's wrong with Khayon's actions, psykers have always been incredibly powerful, and as Khayon appears to be Beta level, his actions are fully justified. Beta and Alpha Psykers are supposed to be able to obliterate enemy armies, which is why the Imperium typically kills them on the spot unless they can be immediately contained. Also, biomancy is a school of power focused entirely on manipulating organic tissue, and reversing aging is incredibly easy if you have small enough tools. Given that psykers completely bypass technology, there's nothing stopping them from lengthening telomere caps on Genes or converting cells into STEM Cells. But when you converse with Beta or Alpha level psykers, you don't address them by their first or last names. You call them god. That's all fine, but the problem arises when these god-like beings begin interacting with other characters who are also supposed to be super-duper-awesome. Why did Khayon throw a little fire at the Horus clone? Why didn't he just blow him up, or break every bone in his body? If he can drag and direct eight megatonnes for months at a time, there is simply no way he couldn't obliterate the Horus clone at his leisure. He could have just hurled him into empty space, or the nearest sun, or the planet below them. It would have been a tiny, insignificant effort compared to what he did just hours before. This is a gaping plot hole - a result more of the setting than the specific characters, to be fair. But it needs to be adressed, not ignored. It's more like comic book writing that follows the 'rule of cool' rather than internal consistency, and that just bothers some people like me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3943097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I agree Perrin. It's not really in the prose, plot, or understanding of the background but in the grandiose of the characters. But he often writes about grandiose characters so it could be natural. It's because of 40k's extensive background that there might be even a perceived problem with Khayon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295140-the-talon-of-horus/page/31/#findComment-3943126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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