The Talon Of Horus

[Tenebris]

Khayon is very powerful, among THE most powerful Thousand Sons left alive, but Ahriman, he is on a whole different level. It is quite a match between the two but Ahriman, he was not chief librarian in a legion of librarians because he could cast a few spells, we speak of one who is there there with shattering into the Webway to besiege the Black Library... possibly also THE Chosen of Tzeentch.

 

BTW I am halfway through Ahriman: Sorcerer by John French, things are getting into a perspective between the two...

[Lucien Eilam]

dragging an eight megatonne starship through space for several months will require a significant expenditure of energy […] Being able to call up that amount of energy at will

 

Well, if you didn't believe it, you didn't believe it. But I don't think your assumptions have much basis.

 

He held onto it as the Vengeful Spirit travelled through the Eye, where real space and the Warp intersect and the laws of reality don't apply, then pushed it out of orbit. Most descriptions of Warp travel seem to have nothing to do with propulsion, the Navigator essentially thinks their way to where they want to be, largely by following the currents.

 

For me, all bets are off at this point, there's no reason to claim it would be any more or less difficult than it was presented. Literally nothing we know of real world physics can be applied to the situation.

 

Further, psychic powers don't work by expending energy, they work by channelling it from the Warp. It's the difference between emptying a reservoir and diverting a river. I don't think it tells you anything about what he can do in a split second combat situation.

 

And finally, we have nothing to suggest he can call it up "at will", never mind while a Primarch is trying to stave his head in. You might reasonably conclude, from the fact that in every life or death situation in the rest of the novel he doesn't do anything remotely on that scale, that in this instance there was also a bit more to it than "abracadabra and pull". Presumably what was relevant to the story was the ordeal rather than the setup, so we just didn't see it.

 

Even if he is an alpha-level psyker, there's a rich tradition of hugely powerful protagonists in SF/fantasy fiction, from The Sandman to Lord of Light, many of whom faced far more interesting challenges than "kryptonite".  I'm sure there's a ton of potential in Khayon's daemon summoning, for example - that kind of thing usually means both parties being bound by a set of rules. Is he as canny as he is powerful?

[Firepower]

It is interesting that Khayon could drag a ship through the warp for ages on end, but couldn't keep one uppity demon under control

Of course this could underline the issue of rituals, preparations and such in warp-craft. Khayon has time to prepare for the big event, while the little demon-mutiny was more of a sudden test of wills. It could also have been to demonstrate that Khayon is not indeed an omnipotent supermage. Or it could've been done because it was a cool way to end the big fight scene (okay, this definitely played at least some part). Or it could be all of these.

Anyway, we have plenty of circumstances where Sorcerers plow through the Warp with their respective ships with sheer brute force, rather than the nuances of a Navigator. If the steering was being handled by a Navigator already, it doesn't seem too far fetched that an adjoined Sorcerer (of considerable but not necessarily godly power) could drag something along for the ride. Hell, keeping that in mind, the duration of the spell was far more impressive than the act itself.

But in the end, you only buy into it if you're willing. Once I was a wee lad, working out rules of DnD with a friend of mine. He was adamant that any sort of wizard/sorcerer could not wear metal, because iron cancels out magic. Now, just stop for a moment, and imagine the stupidity of the argument that followed. Now imagine it going on for 3 hours, without him changing his mind.

Yeah.

Anyway, we have a fictional universe with rules in place, but not that many, and they aren't that firm either. Can a Sorcerer drag a ship through the Warp for months and hurl it like a titanic fastball? Can a lone Knight beat a Demon Primarch and carve his initials into his heart? Can a Tyranid develop long range teleportation technology and spontaneously appear beside the Golden Throne where it goes on to eat the Emperor, gain his powers and memories, and lead humanity into a new age of interspecies peace under the suspicious influence of a holy tome called To Serve Man? Draw the line where you see fit.

[Rain]

While we're at it, why not start arguing about how it's possible that Astartes power armor can actually absorb/deflect the enormous kinetic energy of high explosive .75 caliber rounds, or how gene seed implantation works without replacing all of the existing genetic material in the aspirant's body, etc.

[A D-B]

Granted, physics (or logic) doesn't apply to fantasy fiction.

 

But since we all live in the real world, showing some acknowledgement of the former two will help with suspension of disbelief (usually a requisite of enjoying the latter.)

 

Absent some outside assistance (i.e. the help of the Dark Gods via a ritual) dragging an eight megatonne starship through space for several months will require a significant expenditure of energy (in addition to getting some water every now and again.)  Being able to call up that amount of enery at will, should also allow a bad guy to throw Beorn (or a Land Raider etc.) to the moon if he feels like it:  not really an exciting fight scene, IMO.  (Not that we've seen anything like that so far, and the details of psychic powers are vague -  but the bar has been set.)

 

So the question for me is this: given a (new?) character of Khayon's levels, how will he be written?  Stronger than Ahriman?  Unbeatable?  If so, how will he be beat? - via an army of blanks?  (If so, IMO, dullsville and predictable.  But him being unbeatable is equally dull, IMO.)

 

That's the thing, though. I wouldn't write him like that. It'd make no sense. Even given the fact that sorcerers of Khayon's and Ahriman's talents are rare, there are still several of them, and they absolutely do have weaknesses. Look no further than Ahriman as the prime example. Has he actually managed to achieve his real goals, in all this time?

 

Also, I wouldn't make Khayon stronger than Ahriman. I have no interest in that kind of character. Better at some things? Sure, maybe. Worse at many more? Yeah, probably. But their goals are completely different. Ahriman - despite his self-delusion - is out for Ahriman. That's his tragedy; the Road to Hell was paved with the best and noblest intentions. He once wanted to restore his Legion, and now he's driven so, so far past that ambition... into an endless series of vile actions because "The ends justify the means". He's doing exactly what Chaos wants him to do, while telling himself it's all to eventually stop himself being manipulated.

 

Khayon is likely to be equally deceived or deluded (because he's a Chaos Marine, and doubly so because he's a sorcerer) but the fact is that he's not fighting for himself. He's fighting for a brotherhood, and (much like Lucifer and the Fallen Angels) he's fighting because he believes the Space Marines deserved more, deserved better, and now hate their Creator God for his "betrayal" of them.

 

The thing is, power is a dubious blessing. Everything depends on how you wield it, and more importantly, who's working against you. We already know the Black Legion isn't omnipotent and omnipresent. It's just very strong and dominant - in ascendancy, if you will. So we already know that Khayon, Abaddon, and co. can indeed be beaten, thwarted, etc. They may not have lost all of the Black Crusades that get meme'd about, but they've lost plenty of times in an eternity of life in and out of the Eye. Of course they have.

 

And like I said, something like dragging a ship through the Warp and almost dying from it is:

• ...listed as a significant deal that almost kills him, and plainly not something he can do in most circumstances. The context makes that fairly clear, though I've noted a couple of people think it could be clearer. Still, it's fairly obvious he can't "call it up at will". You know that... because he doesn't ever call it up at will. When you say "Why didn't he then do it at Moment X or Y?" the answer is because he can't call it up at will. The context makes it clear. 
• ...also a 'different strokes for different strokes' deal. You think it's almost unbelievable. Given what goes on in the Eye, I don't even think it's that big of a deal at all. Khayon does, but I don't, really. Significant, yep. Notable, definitely. Not something other sorcerers will go "UNBELIEVABLE!" at, though. 

The wrong thing to focus on is Khayon's newness as a character. That's something fans do wrong at times, and it really doesn't do justice to the setting's scale. It's not some new character coming up and being unrealistically powerful. These characters exist in 40K already, in abundance. They have to, because of the setting's immensity. It wouldn't make any sense if they didn't. They've just not been written about yet. Some will be, in time. Players can create their own if they like, too. That's how it goes, and always has. 

 

In all seriousness, yeah, I'm sure there'll be moments where a character does something that's mundane to one reader, cool to another, and unbelievable to another. That's the nature of the setting. My 40K is not yours, and yours isn't anyone else's. There's very little consistency on a lot of this stuff, and intentionally so. Rather than ignore that, though, I do try to show cause and consequence, and Khayon does (and will in the future) go into a lot of detail about sorcery.

 

Yeah, he can drag a warship through the Warp.  Wait until he meets the Grey Knights for the first time, though. A handful of them will dump him on his ass. That's not even a spoiler: he's a Chaos Sorcerer. A squad of Grey Knights is practically designed to screw characters like him over. He's a demon-binder; they're Space Marine wizard-killers and exorcists who are resistant to the Warp.

 

That's not a disparity in power to me. One event is manipulating the very stuff he's amazing at manipulating. The other is facing a couple of warriors literally created to be the bane of people like him. But in terms of achievements, one is significant and notable... and the other is failing some 3+ saves against a single Grey Knight Strike Squad.

 

Perspective.

[Tenebris]

Thank you ADB for elucidating the point. I guess as the series progresses we will learn more about the characters from Talon and I trust you that you will deliver with your singular flair for the 40k setting. I agree with what you said, they are not super powerful this characters, they have their weaknesses and this weaknesses make them simply much more in my eyes. For example Ahriman has bolt shards close to his hearts, he was also severely ravaged during his psychic manipulation of an Inquisitor, in his series alone I have counted several times that he was close to be a goner... 

 

This is why I like your novels. The Night Lords were believable because they were flawed creatures all. Flawed in a human way, because they were at the same time more and less human than than the other astartes I have read about, a flaw in the eyes of a loyalist, but a clear frame of mind considering what they went through. 

 

Now to steer the argument to a different topic I would like to ask of you people if you liked the snippets of Cthonian in the dialog. Personally I loved this aspect, it places the Sons of Horus into a perspective, it gave them character, it gave Abaddon a context above his image as pilgrim and warlord, but as a Cthonian, as a brother among brothers. I sincerely do hope to read more of this Sons of Horus idiosyncrasies, ranging from their language to their mindset. They are one of the less known legions when comes to their mentality, to their culture and I would really love to see how their identity as Sons of Horus clashes with the myriad of other cultures, idioms and traits inherent to the other Black Legion warbands. In truth this is the aspect of the series I am most interested in. This clash of ideologies, combat doctrines and the problems which will arise with the "chimeric" gene legacy of the Black Legion. 

[Augustus]

I was in error. I thought he was a new character. Looked him and found what I thought was reference of him being around way back in the day. I looked him up because one of my criticisms of his works were what I thought were the over...powered descriptions of some of his (new) characters.

 

I guess it's a matter of taste as I seem guilty of what AD-B described as focusing on the newness of the character(s). Maybe I'm someone who needs small doses of badassery from them. I probably wouldn't have this point of view if they were the the traditional "famous" faces such as Ahriman. Very hypocritical of me come to think of it. Maybe I'm a stick in the mud :D

 

These new fangle characters AD-B creates writes about are doing all this stuff. .....and they're new. Too new *shakes fist* ;)

 

Get off my lawn

[Vesper]

I read the warship dragging part as a great feat mostly based on an infinite amount of concentration. Something that couldn't be done on the battlefield or achieved at will.

So I don't have any issue with it.

 

I was a bit disappointed by the chronological choices, though. I really think the past (loose) canon, where the Sons of Horus led by Abaddon destroy the body and clones of Horus carried a lot of significance. That closed the Sons of Horus' history so perfectly with the death of their father's ghost, overcoming the past, overcoming themselves and what they were to become something new, reborn from the holocaust of the glories and failures of old.

I get why AD-B chose to handle it that way, and I don't have much to say against it in the end. But I hope the actual founding of the Black Legion, the rallying of the Sons of Horus is something grand. Because it felt grand in the former pseudo canon.

But I'm confident and eager to get there :).

[A D-B]

I was in error. I thought he was a new character. Looked him and found what I thought was reference of him being around way back in the day. I looked him up because one of my criticisms of his works were what I thought were the over...powered descriptions of some of his (new) characters.

 

One of the things I dislike in genre fiction is the idea of the Chosen One. Now, obviously most stories feature someone set apart by some kind of circumstance, but it's characters with inherent specialness that makes them "better" or more competent that I essentially dislike. 

 

A couple of times in this thread, f'rex, I've been accused of doing what I adamantly dislike. That's fine. I play around with the trope sometimes, and I realise there's a fine line between distinctiveness and special snowflakeness, as well as people having different thresholds for it. But when I do it at all, I always balance it, because it's a trope I like to break down - and from my reviews and feedback, a lot of people notice and comment on that. 

 

Sevatar is a good example. When he first came along, a few people asked why he was so competent and capable. "How is he as good at fighting as the other First Captains?" Well... the answer's right there. It's not because he's new and special. It's because he's a First Captain. That's what First Captains are, and what First Captains do. He doesn't ever do anything any other First Captain couldn't do, and in order to get out of a fight with Sigismund he headbutts the Imperial Fist to get disqualified from the fight. Why would he do that? Well, the answer's fairly obvious. He wouldn't have done that if he was going to win, would he? That would make no sense. He's also the only First Captain to literally be captured by the enemy, and imprisoned, and humiliated. I think that offsets any specialness and capability from the fact he's a latent psyker. That's the context of his role. If anyone makes a new First Captain and tries to give them deeds equivalent to the classic, famous captains, they're going to run into that. And I kept him significantly below the deeds of, say, Sigismund "the Emperor's Champion", or Khârn - who is, let's remember, the Chosen of a God, carries his primarch's axe, and is immortal.

 

Admittedly, Sev is my most popular character, so we can look at the others. 

 

Talos was one of the Eight Legion's rare prophets. Awesome! Totally special. Except it rarely ever benefited him. Everything he saw almost always backfired in some way, or he interpreted it wrong, or it was a futile fight to begin with. Right at the very end, the one vision he had at the series' beginning comes true, and he completely gets it wrong. He's no more or less competent than any other Chaos Marine when it comes to boots on the ground. He's a terrible leader; a fact he's well aware of, and a fact that gets countless of his own men killed. That's not Wolverine's invulnerability and super-senses, or Blade's endless prowess. That's a guy with a rare advantage that doesn't really do him any favours at all. And half of the characters don't even respect him for it, or consider it an advantage after all. It doesn't aid him. It hinders him. 

 

Hyperion was similar in that regard. He was powerful - though not spectacularly, or even notably more than his brothers - and he was ultimately undisciplined. What should have been a virtue was a liability - he gets his brothers killed at times, and his abilities don't really elevate or benefit him. There's nothing special about him in that story, really.

 

Khârn is Khârn. Grimaldus is Grimaldus. Argel Tal is Argel Tal. Nothing overtly special or notable about them compared to their brethren, beyond the strange circumstances they're in (which is the core of any story) or their previously established uniqueness which has nothing to do with me.

 

Essentially, I refute that I make special snowflake characters. I just write stories about the highest echelons of the Legions, where you need more characters than a scarce codex look can give. You need to go into the hundreds of thousands of other characters that have never gotten screentime, yet who absolutely have to exist somewhere. 

 

Ultimately, the Black Legion Series is the story of several of the Legion's most powerful and renowned characters. They're not special snowflakes, but yes, they absolutely have elements of rarity and complexity that pout them above their brethren. They have to. It would be madness (and, indeed, impossible) if they didn't. Khayon isn't powerful because he's new and I like powerful characters. Khayon is powerful because the foremost sorcerer-lords of the Black Legion are powerful, and he's one of them. And, as stated, he's not even particularly special. If having a daemon-wolf and an alien bodyguard, and towing a spaceship through the Warp, are considered the hallmarks of impossible snowflakeness, then woe betide anyone who ever reads anything ever written about Chaos. This is a faction that sails around in ships that can't be constructed in reality, and has forges that mesh the primal matter of souls into daemonic war machines, as a standard thing to do on a Monday morning.

 

Plenty of Chaos Marines will have insanely exotic bodyguards - look at Huron's hamadrya, or the thing following Honsou around. Having Nefertari doesn't make Khayon badass. Having Nefertari highlights his desperate aimlessness without a Legion (a fact she points out several times) and shows his issues with attachment in the wake of losing his primarch and purpose. It's not to look cool. 

 

Context is everything in stuff like this. I end up loving these topics because they're something I put a lot of thought (and actual study) into, so I never mind chewing the fat over it if I've got time. 

 

(And, please note, Augustus' comments were nothing like the "LOL MARY SUE" nonsense many authors have to listen to. Don't take my general replies as a direct "NO U" reply to him. I'm just thinking aloud, so to speak.)

[Volt]

While we're at it, why not start arguing about how it's possible that Astartes power armor can actually absorb/deflect the enormous kinetic energy of high explosive .75 caliber rounds, or how gene seed implantation works without replacing all of the existing genetic material in the aspirant's body, etc.

Well on the subject of power armor, I would like to reinforce that the very existence of adamantium in 40K as a naturally occurring element in the 40k universe throws our entire understanding of elements up in the air and pretty much gives the author a blank cheque for whatever they want to do. When you've got guys running around wearing gear or flying in space ships made out of an element with an atomic number over a hundred that is completely stable and can be picked up by humans, our understanding of physics kinda flies out the window.

 

I'd still argue in favor of things like Thermodynamics, but armor in 40K sure as hell isn't going to behave naturally.

[Tenebris]

A question ADB. Considering how well have you managed to characterize the World Eaters and the Word Bearer, their language, creed, units, etc. can we expect a similar treatment for the Black Legion? I second the interpretation provided by Vesper above, how much will we see the character of the Sons of Horus pop out from the ranks of the Black Legion, how much of them will be transplanted into this new "Black Legion" persona. In short will you make a similar work for the Sons of Horus elements as you did with the Word Bearers?

 

My fear, if I can call it objectively as fear, is that the character of the Sons of Horus will be lost in translation thus really sealing the legion in the past, leaving little for the future... dismantling the Chtonian roots, their traits, their philosophy, their charisma and to a certain extent their easy camaraderie and warrior creed. 

[A D-B]

A question ADB. Considering how well have you managed to characterize the World Eaters and the Word Bearer, their language, creed, units, etc. can we expect a similar treatment for the Black Legion? I second the interpretation provided by Vesper above, how much will we see the character of the Sons of Horus pop out from the ranks of the Black Legion, how much of them will be transplanted into this new "Black Legion" persona. In short will you make a similar work for the Sons of Horus elements as you did with the Word Bearers?

 

My fear, if I can call it objectively as fear, is that the character of the Sons of Horus will be lost in translation thus really sealing the legion in the past, leaving little for the future... dismantling the Chtonian roots, their traits, their philosophy, their charisma and to a certain extent their easy camaraderie and warrior creed. 

 

That's a perfectly valid fear. I suspect I can ease your fears; will reply later, bit busy at the mo.

[Rain]

 

While we're at it, why not start arguing about how it's possible that Astartes power armor can actually absorb/deflect the enormous kinetic energy of high explosive .75 caliber rounds, or how gene seed implantation works without replacing all of the existing genetic material in the aspirant's body, etc.

 

Well on the subject of power armor, I would like to reinforce that the very existence of adamantium in 40K as a naturally occurring element in the 40k universe throws our entire understanding of elements up in the air and pretty much gives the author a blank cheque for whatever they want to do. When you've got guys running around wearing gear or flying in space ships made out of an element with an atomic number over a hundred that is completely stable and can be picked up by humans, our understanding of physics kinda flies out the window.

 

I'd still argue in favor of things like Thermodynamics, but armor in 40K sure as hell isn't going to behave naturally.

Ding ding ding!

 

My point exactly, and the existence of demon space magic throws our understanding of space travel out the window, which is why I find it silly that anyone would consider it "unrealistic" for demon space magic to drag a ship through imaginary demon land and then throw it. It's just part of the setting, and a part you have to accept if you are to accept the setting at all. Most of 40k deals with things to which we have no real analogue and therefore the only way for it to be "unrealistic" is for something to break a firmly established rule, of which there aren't very many.

[Karthak]

 

Khayon is likely to be equally deceived or deluded (because he's a Chaos Marine, and doubly so because he's a sorcerer) but the fact is that he's not fighting for himself. He's fighting for a brotherhood, and (much like Lucifer and the Fallen Angels) he's fighting because he believes the Space Marines deserved more, deserved better, and now hate their Creator God for his "betrayal" of them.

This is something I've been wondering about for years now. How exactly do they believe the Emperor betrayed them? By going back to Terra? There was this whole spiel about him abandoning the Great Crusade in order to ascend to godhood, but wouldn't any Chaos Marine with at least a modicum of sense be able to look back at it after the Heresy and go "well, that was stupid."

 

How exactly did they deserve more? True, the bureaucracy was being put into place, but that was a necessary thing, and even so the Legions were just about the most privileged factions in the Imperium. Abaddon believes the Space Marines should rule? Hell, if the Heresy hadn't happened that might have been a thing. Guilliman had Astartes in charge of Ultramar. As detailed in Know No Fear his vision for a post-war Imperium included Space Marines ruling over Imperial worlds.  Is there any actual evidence that the Emperor intended to shaft the Legions as he had the Thunder Warriors.

 

As for Khayon specifically...Let's go through the Fall of the Thousands Sons as I've understood it from the books.

 

1. The Emperor warns Magnus to be careful with the Warp. Magnus goes "sure, dad," and proceeds to completely ignore said warning.

2. Magnus strikes a bargain with a warp entity to save his sons, a bargain that eventually spectacularly misfires.

3. Eventually the Emperor tells Magnus to quit it entirely with the warp nonsense. He does this in an appallingly harsh way, but from what the tutelaries do to the Sons when the Wolves come knocking I'd say he's got a really good point.

4. Again, Magnus ignores said warning, and in a spectacular f@€&-up, wrecks the Imperial Webway project and FLOODS THE PALACE BASEMENT WITH DAEMONS. Really, this last point cannot be emphasized enough.

5. Thoroughly peeved, Da Empra sends Russ to arrest Magnus and bring him back to Terra to answer some very serious questions. Unfortunately, Horus alters said orders to "stomp Prospero flat."

6. Magnus knows what is coming, but hides it from his legion, allowing the Wolves to butcher most of them, before he chickens out, sells himself to Chaos and whisks them to the planet of sorcerers.

7. After the Heresy, they find out that it was Horus, not the Emperor, who gave the order to burn Prospero.

 

What kind of nutter looks at all this and decides that it's all the Emperor's fault, and that He is False? Magnus and Horus were far more to blame for the 15th's fate than him. I dearly hope that there are Thousand Sons who after the Heresy, in possession of all the facts, banged their helmets against their desks and said "well, :cuss. We were on the wrong side."

[FashaTheDog]

Karthak, the bitter, disenfranchised look at all your evidence and see nothing but the Emperor to blame.  Any good Iron Warrior will tell you that the Emperor should have been explicitly clear about the danger if he didn't want that to happen.  I am not necessarily disagreeing with you personally, but I am going to play devil's advocate here so bear with me and try to look at it from the other side of the coin.

 

I mean you tell someone "don't look in the box" and all they now want to do is take just a quick peek.  We can go back to the famous case of Pandora for one of the older and more famous accounts on how well that turns out.  The fact that the Emperor has been kicking about since, what, 12,000 BC, should have given him more than enough myths, stories, accounts, and examples to have drilled it into his head that he wasn't going to keep the mystery of the Warp and what lives within it under wraps forever.  Then assuming the Emperor intended to let his Primarchs rule or occupy grand positions, wouldn't he have trusted them, well at least some of them, enough to let them in on the details of just how dangerous the Warp really is rather than risk the more inquisitive, such as Magnus, blunder about and muck everything up, just like he did?  He did go to Moloch and, at least according to Horus, commit grand theft Warp power to make the Primarchs.  If he did break such a bargain with powerful and intelligent Warp entities, not letting his creations, who happened to also be prime targets and weapons against said powers, in on the secret appears to be a huge error on his part.  Sure some such as Angron may not have best suited to tell this to, but some, perhaps Horus, Lorgar, and definitely Magnus, certainly should have been let in on the secret.  Had even just Magnus known from an early point after being reunited, then the Heresy might have been adverted.  Seems that the Emperor was a little too power hungry and unable to trust those he should have.

[DarKnight]

Farsha and Kathak make great points of course, I think AD-B showed the range of emotions and reasoning post-heresy in the Night Lords trilogy with brothers in the same squad being unable to agree on the Emperor and his legacy, Talos being of the opinion their father martyred himself to prove his point and many of the others (and myself) believing Conrad Kurze was just a psychopath that needed to be put out of his misery. They can both be right I guess, and maybe they don't even believe the things they say but just lie to themselves to justify their actions which I guess would make them pretty human after all. Either way I think every military leader can respect the idea of "operational security" and follow an order without question until the emperor deemed it necessary. Not like he was gonna unveil the web way and completely not mention the warp.

[Felix Antipodes]

Disregard - answered by higher post

[b1soul]

 

1. The Emperor warns Magnus to be careful with the Warp. Magnus goes "sure, dad," and proceeds to completely ignore said warning.

2. Magnus strikes a bargain with a warp entity to save his sons, a bargain that eventually spectacularly misfires.

3. Eventually the Emperor tells Magnus to quit it entirely with the warp nonsense. He does this in an appallingly harsh way, but from what the tutelaries do to the Sons when the Wolves come knocking I'd say he's got a really good point.

4. Again, Magnus ignores said warning, and in a spectacular f@€&-up, wrecks the Imperial Webway project and FLOODS THE PALACE BASEMENT WITH DAEMONS. Really, this last point cannot be emphasized enough.

5. Thoroughly peeved, Da Empra sends Russ to arrest Magnus and bring him back to Terra to answer some very serious questions. Unfortunately, Horus alters said orders to "stomp Prospero flat."

6. Magnus knows what is coming, but hides it from his legion, allowing the Wolves to butcher most of them, before he chickens out, sells himself to Chaos and whisks them to the planet of sorcerers.

7. After the Heresy, they find out that it was Horus, not the Emperor, who gave the order to burn Prospero.

 

If I were a TSon, I'd probably be yelling “Death to the False Primarch [Magnus or Horus]"

 

Magnus actually killed one of his captains to keep the TSons blind to the impending invasion, sent off the bulk of the defensive fleet, inactivated planetary defences...if anyone was false to the TSons, it was Magnus 

 

Guy didn't even have the balls to accept his punishment at the very end. He hid in his chamber, and then finally thought it was a good idea to enter the battle way too late, then he doesn't even accept death at the hands of Russ, instead teleporting him and his legion into the Eye and eternal damnation. 

[Volt]

And then there's the final hypocrisy of Magnus shouting "NO U" at Ahriman after Ahriman tried to fix the sins of the father. Sure, the Rubric was a colossal failure, but Magnus is not in the position to criticize the actions of anyone. Plus unlike Magnus, whose response to his failure is to hide and mope in his tower on the Planet of Sorcerers, Ahriman actually got off his arse and is actively trying to fix that which he corrupted and redeem himself in the eyes of Magnus.

 

Even Fulgrim has an excuse to become a Daemon Hermit after being corrupted by the blade of the laer and killing his own brother. Meanwhile Magnus isn't man enough to admit he was wrong.

 

(Also, if any Primarch best resembles their father's personality, it's Magnus. Aloof, arrogant, self righteous, visionary too blind to realize he's treading down the same road as many a failed leader has in history.)

[Strazhakov]

I have a question about the "Ragged Knight".

 

What kind of Daemon was he? 

 

He seemed quite powerful massacerring the 20+ Emperor's Children squad and beating/almost killing Lyras ( a Chaos Lord of Slaanesh).

For all his power, I doubt Khayon could bind a Daemon Prince, so I assume he was a very powerful Khorne Herald almost on the level of Skulltaker?

 

@b1soul

 

Woe is me! I'm Magnus the most powerful Primarch of all. Let's sulk around and let my chapter be slaughtered by furry barbarians, corrupted by a Dark God and turned into Ghosts yay!

[Lucien Eilam]

I don't think it's intended to fit neatly into any of the gaming profiles: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297022-the-ragged-knight-spoilers/?view=findpost&p=3814799

[Strazhakov]

I don't think it's intended to fit neatly into any of the gaming profiles: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297022-the-ragged-knight-spoilers/?view=findpost&p=3814799

 

 

Thank you, didn't catch that post. 

[Loesh]

 

 

Ultimately, the Black Legion Series is the story of several of the Legion's most powerful and renowned characters. They're not special snowflakes, but yes, they absolutely have elements of rarity and complexity that pout them above their brethren. They have to. It would be madness (and, indeed, impossible) if they didn't. Khayon isn't powerful because he's new and I like powerful characters. Khayon is powerful because the foremost sorcerer-lords of the Black Legion are powerful, and he's one of them. And, as stated, he's not even particularly special. If having a daemon-wolf and an alien bodyguard, and towing a spaceship through the Warp, are considered the hallmarks of impossible snowflakeness, then woe betide anyone who ever reads anything ever written about Chaos. This is a faction that sails around in ships that can't be constructed in reality, and has forges that mesh the primal matter of souls into daemonic war machines, as a standard thing to do on a Monday morning.

 

 

 

Of course, but it does have a very strong....taste I suppose is the word, that's difficult to acclimate to. In context of course Khayon is not that unique considering the Chaos Legions end point, but I suppose what I take, not umbrage or distaste, something milder then that but I just can't think of the word for it....with is that Khayon seems to get these things off the bat from the start of the Talon of Horus so a bit more punch then i'm used to. With Fulgrim you sort of see the descent, because it is after all about the Legion turning to Slaanesh, so you can see how they steadily get crazier and stranger while getting used to it at the same time. So I suppose when I said he was too unique earlier, I guess what I meant was he felt too unique too fast.

 

I'm sure the future books will provide additional context and clarity for these things of course, but it takes some getting used to.

[Disciple of Fulgrim]

And I think that's the source of some of the dislike for Khayon - in this first book (which is all we have to go on at this point) he comes across as being "all that and a bag of chips."  (Or "crisps" if you prefer.)  Basically, pretty darn close to the "Mary Sue" comparison that was previously raised.  The biggest example of that - I never got the impression he almost died from doing what he did with the Tlaloc.  Tiring sure, but a near-death experience?  Not even close.  For example when Abaddon asks him "How does it feel to kill a world with one blow, my brother?"  (Page 319 in my edition.)  His reply is: "I manage a weak smile. 'Exhausting.'"  Now admittedly this may have been a bit of modesty, and Khayon did pass out for a bit (maybe several seconds?) after he tossed the Tlaloc at Harmony, but then ...  

 

Khayon goes on to hop in a boarding pod; zip on over to the Pulchritudinous; take the lead (behind Telemachon) in butchering some of Fabius' playthings; open a Conduit so Abaddon, Falkus and the gang can come on over from the Vengeful Spirit; fight through squads of Emperor's Children; order the Rubricae to blast apart Fabius' apothecarion; and also drop what remained of the Horus clone's force field and boil his face off; all before being smacked by the clone (and surviving.)  Hardly what you'd expect from someone who's just gone through a near-death experience and is on his last legs.  (Though admittedly Astartes heal fast, and Khayon has allies as he fights his way to Fabius - but he also gets shot through his armor joints twice as he goes along, taking hits to his neck/spine and right elbow along the way.  Ouch!)  Hardly the description of someone who's at death's door - though maybe he bounces back quickly from near death, along with everything else he can do.

 

Don't get me wrong, I realize we're just in the first book of the series.  And as things go along, Khayon's effectiveness may be countered and diminished by blanks, or Grey Knights, or whatever else as things evolve.  But I really, really hope he isn't going to stay at the 11/10 power level he displays in ToH, because that's going to be boring.  (Power level aside, Khayon does seem like he might evolve into the sort of character a real person can relate to.  I'm curious to see how he's going to react to Ultio, and like his relationship with what essentially seems to be his dog - Gyre - at least for now.  And maybe Nefertari will snap into focus, once we learn more about her, her wings and her relationship with Khayon.)  So how am I going to find out how all this turns out?  By buying book 2!

 

(So here's a question I haven't seen asked yet - what's your guess on the projected length of this series?  In my mind there's no way a trilogy is going to give the author enough time to tell this story, and we're looking at maybe six-ish books at a bare minimum.  More than that, or has this question already been answered?) 

[Firepower]

 

This is a faction that sails around in ships that can't be constructed in reality, and has forges that mesh the primal matter of souls into daemonic war machines, as a standard thing to do on a Monday morning.

 

And in hell, it is always Monday morning.