The Talon Of Horus

[The Red Thirst]

 

 

This is a faction that sails around in ships that can't be constructed in reality, and has forges that mesh the primal matter of souls into daemonic war machines, as a standard thing to do on a Monday morning.

 

And in hell, it is always Monday morning.

 

"In the grim-darkness of the far future ... every morning is Monday morning..."

[b1soul]

And I think that's the source of some of the dislike for Khayon - in this first book (which is all we have to go on at this point) he comes across as being "all that and a bag of chips." (Or "crisps" if you prefer.) Basically, pretty darn close to the "Mary Sue" comparison that was previously raised. The biggest example of that - I never got the impression he almost died from doing what he did with the Tlaloc. Tiring sure, but a near-death experience? Not even close. For example when Abaddon asks him "How does it feel to kill a world with one blow, my brother?" (Page 319 in my edition.) His reply is: "I manage a weak smile. 'Exhausting.'" Now admittedly this may have been a bit of modesty, and Khayon did pass out for a bit (maybe several seconds?) after he tossed the Tlaloc at Harmony, but then ...

Emperor's Children deserve to be butchered

[Loesh]

And I think that's the source of some of the dislike for Khayon - in this first book (which is all we have to go on at this point) he comes across as being "all that and a bag of chips." (Or "crisps" if you prefer.) Basically, pretty darn close to the "Mary Sue" comparison that was previously raised. The biggest example of that - I never got the impression he almost died from doing what he did with the Tlaloc. Tiring sure, but a near-death experience? Not even close. For example when Abaddon asks him "How does it feel to kill a world with one blow, my brother?" (Page 319 in my edition.) His reply is: "I manage a weak smile. 'Exhausting.'" Now admittedly this may have been a bit of modesty, and Khayon did pass out for a bit (maybe several seconds?) after he tossed the Tlaloc at Harmony, but then ...

Emperor's Children deserve to be butchered

You're just jealous about how fabulous we are!

Angrons the fan favorite badass, but where's his two Primarch kills? Oh that's right, the Grey Knights owned him. :p

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

And I think that's the source of some of the dislike for Khayon - in this first book (which is all we have to go on at this point) he comes across as being "all that and a bag of chips." (Or "crisps" if you prefer.) Basically, pretty darn close to the "Mary Sue" comparison that was previously raised. The biggest example of that - I never got the impression he almost died from doing what he did with the Tlaloc. Tiring sure, but a near-death experience? Not even close. For example when Abaddon asks him "How does it feel to kill a world with one blow, my brother?" (Page 319 in my edition.) His reply is: "I manage a weak smile. 'Exhausting.'" Now admittedly this may have been a bit of modesty, and Khayon did pass out for a bit (maybe several seconds?) after he tossed the Tlaloc at Harmony, but then ...

Emperor's Children deserve to be butchered

You're just jealous about how fabulous we are!

Angrons the fan favorite badass, but where's his two Primarch kills? Oh that's right, the Grey Knights owned him.

Shouldnt the daemon sword get the credit for Ferrus, as Fulgrim couldnt finish the blow?

and Guilliman is not dead, merely in an extended time out.

WLK

[Loesh]

And I think that's the source of some of the dislike for Khayon - in this first book (which is all we have to go on at this point) he comes across as being "all that and a bag of chips." (Or "crisps" if you prefer.) Basically, pretty darn close to the "Mary Sue" comparison that was previously raised. The biggest example of that - I never got the impression he almost died from doing what he did with the Tlaloc. Tiring sure, but a near-death experience? Not even close. For example when Abaddon asks him "How does it feel to kill a world with one blow, my brother?" (Page 319 in my edition.) His reply is: "I manage a weak smile. 'Exhausting.'" Now admittedly this may have been a bit of modesty, and Khayon did pass out for a bit (maybe several seconds?) after he tossed the Tlaloc at Harmony, but then ...

Emperor's Children deserve to be butchered

You're just jealous about how fabulous we are!

Angrons the fan favorite badass, but where's his two Primarch kills? Oh that's right, the Grey Knights owned him.

Shouldnt the daemon sword get the credit for Ferrus, as Fulgrim couldnt finish the blow?

and Guilliman is not dead, merely in an extended time out.

WLK

From what I recall of the book, Fulgrim was going to swing anyway, the Daemon Sword was just eager. Likewise that only counts if Roboute actually comes back which we'll never find out.

.....That said, i'm being semi-facetious of course, Fulgrim just happened to be in positions where he could down the Primarch's. The answer to 'Could my Primarch beat up your Primarch?' is always 'Yes, in the right circumstances'.

Edit: Ah I checked, Fulgrim ultimately tried to pull the blow, but he made the decision to begin the swing without the swords coercing. Ultimately, i'd say that's Fulgrims kill even if he regretted it, but that's up to you.

[b1soul]

Didn't the Daemon sword augment Fulgrim's already formidable swordsmanship?

[Loesh]

Didn't the Daemon sword augment Fulgrim's already formidable swordsmanship?

 

Well yeah, but then you get into the whole argument about what is or is not allowed to augment Primarch's and if that counts as cheating, etc. Ferrus Manus was essentially in the strongest suit of armor in the universe and his fis- Argh!

 

Going over that passage actually makes me appreciate the book a bit more. Graham is remarkably specific in his wording, that Fulgrim wanted to pull back, but also pointed out that it was Fulgrims choice in the end, not the Daemons.

 

Which kind of foreshadows the Reflection Crack'd, come to think of it.

[b1soul]

 

Didn't the Daemon sword augment Fulgrim's already formidable swordsmanship?

 

Well yeah, but then you get into the whole argument about what is or is not allowed to augment Primarch's and if that counts as cheating, etc. Ferrus Manus was essentially in the strongest suit of armor in the universe and his fis- Argh!

 

Going over that passage actually makes me appreciate the book a bit more. Graham is remarkably specific in his wording, that Fulgrim wanted to pull back, but also pointed out that it was Fulgrims choice in the end, not the Daemons.

 

Which kind of foreshadows the Reflection Crack'd, come to think of it.

 

 

I believe Fulgrim defeated Ferrus with Fireblade anyway (on the ship)

[Frosco Toppings]

And another thread descends into "which primarch is best" tedium

[Tenebris]

Ok to recap, and to set clear several things. First thing first, the towing of the ship (which I don't understand why is such a problem) was achieved by a sorcerer lord, hailing from a legion of sorcerers, who was also part of the inner circle (despite the betrayal) of the greatest sorcerer of mankind (bar the Emperor, Magnus and Malcador) and who used "space magic" to achieve a feat clearly within the power limits of a natural telekine. His following performance it the battle against the Emperor's Children and the clone of Horus is still what I would call within "operational standards" for an astartes of the legions, a former captain and a warrior with centuries of experience. In short nothing all that extraordinary. On a side note he himself states that a strong mind can shape the Warp at will and not the other way around. 

 

Said that. Death to the False Emperor indeed! 

 

The Imperium at its core is based upon the lie that there are no gods bar the Emperor, the souls go to the side of the Emperor in their afterlife and the psychic gift is just a mutation instead of the veritable destiny of our species. Said that the true potential, and might, and danger, and corruption and the miracles open to mankind with the use of the Warp or due to the influence of some very real gods is denied to us by the Imperial Cult and formerly the Imperial Creed.

 

It is this opportunity to better yourself, to master your fate, to become not only immortal but also this opportunity to shape your existence, your reality and the reality of the universe with your faith, with your courage and your ambition is thus prohibited, shrouded behind a veil of lies and half-truths. 

 

The very core of the Heresy is the revelation of this truth. The truth that every person if he or she is strong enough can become an extraordinary being which can shape the very universe with a gesture or a thought. Not only that but the Thousand Sons were the advocates of an even more sinister truth, the truth that the psychic destiny of mankind could be harnessed, disciplined and allowed to flourish for the betterment of the species. 

 

Of all the legion worlds, Prospero was an utopia, it was harmony, it was tolerance, it was knowledge and learning, exploration and tradition, it was a paradise unlike any other. Prospero and the Thousand Sons themselves were the living breathing proof what heights could humanity achieve if only the species would dare to walk their preordained path, preordained by fate, preordained by, as it was later revealed, true and believable gods. 

 

By the shattering of Prospero way more was destroyed than just the glass pyramids and the vast libraries. What was shattered in truth was the manifest destiny of mankind itself, as a psychic species, as a species able to shape its destiny with knowledge, true knowledge. The Thousand Sons were the living proof that the Emperor was a liar first and foremost, they were also living a lie, enforcing dictates upon the conquered worlds, imperial dictates who were marking the Thousand Sons themselves as a sanctioned abomination.

 

Magnus has many flaws, he was flawed by the psychic mutation, he was flawed in his skin tone, his sons were flawed by the genetic instability of their father and so on. Yet even born as flawed the Thousand Sons proved to be loyal beyond doubt, to be the warriors scholars they were, they never portrayed themselves as anything else and for this reason alone they were betrayed.

 

Magnus did shatter the Webway project, he also broke the edict of Nikea but he did it with the best intentions. The treachery of Horus was learned before it would be unleashed and a sorcerer as Magnus knew full well why it came to treachery in the first place. He did what was in his power to do, he broke the rule for the salvation of the species, he broke the edict in order to deliver the message to his father. I find no guilt here, none at all. 

 

On the other hand the Thousand Sons, or truth be told, their psychic might, would be the tipping point in the oncoming war. Both sides knew that from the moment that the first acts of treachery were planned. Horus had to seal the commitment of the XV legion to his cause, the Space Wolves were a medium to achieve that. In this I only see a cunning application of diplomacy and strategy. If there is a weak link in all this is Russ, and his almost "moronic" following of orders like a whipped dog. 

 

My accusation lies not in the acts which led to the Battle of Prospero but the savagery of the Space Wolves themselves. Russ could have reined them, he could have even deigned to talk with his brother, but always eager to play the executioner, the dog obeyed once again and became a wolf no more, at least in my eyes. 

 

Since we are not here to discuss the "what if" (I hate that) the facts are contradictory at best but the Thousand Sons have many more justifications to hate the Emperor than to stay loyal. First thing first, the Emperor created them and their primarch for a purpose, psychic warfare, there is no denying that. Yet when the Thousand Sons have become the weapon the Emperor wished them to be, they were trialed and betrayed at Nikea. The proofs were ample in their favor. From their diligent and loyal persecution of the Crusade (despite some setbacks) to a clear and telling showcase of Prospero, the living proof that mankind indeed could become much more than just flesh and blood. Yet trialed they were, yet betrayed the Thousand Sons were.

 

We all know what followed but it was not the manipulation of Horus that hurt most, what hurt most, what betrayal was the greatest was the very order given by the Emperor himself to capture Magnus and his sons for their persecution of sorcery. Also it was the inherent flaw of mutation, engineered or perhaps as a side effect by the Emperor himself that plagued the legion and forced many times the hand of Magnus and his coven of XV legion lords. Betrayed not only by the liege they owed their existence but also by the very flesh the Emperor gave them, it is a wonder why the Thousand Sons were so adamantly loyal until the bitter end. Many other legions would have shattered their shackles way before them (World Eaters for example). 

 

In truth Tzeentch both proved to be the salvation and the doom of the Thousand Sons but his intervention was never of sanction, in fact, broken as it may be the Rubic did achieve its goal, the spirits of the legionnaires are still there, in their suits of armor so not everything is lost, and hope, this very vaunted ideal is the reasons why the Thousand Sons are in such a plight and their actions misunderstood. 

 

My observation is that of all the legions the Thousand Sons are the ones who have really thought things out, they are the scholars, the academics and the learned ones of the astartes legion hence their actions are always measured and pondered. When they have sided with Horus, probably several years already into the Heresy, the did so as a calculated effort, as a very measured response to what happened to them. Have they overlooked the betrayal of Horus? No, they have not, it has not escaped them nor to their primarch. But the betrayal of the Emperor hurt more and had to be avenged. 

 

If you dedicate your whole existence to the persecution of knowledge and understanding, and then you are ordered to lower yourself to the status of an ignorant for the sake of the species (and mostly political consent) yet you know that in your knowledge lies the key to the salvation of mankind... in truth I would have continued to study and practice my art. The Thousand Sons simply followed the logic conclusions and while the betrayal of Horus is strategy, the betrayal of their creator and Emperor is true betrayal, the betrayal of their flesh, their soul and their purpose. 

 

To understand a Thousand Sons you should think as a scholar, void of emotions, knowledgeable and daring. They know what their psychic talent can bring to mankind, they know about the truth behind the veil, they know it on an academic and more detailed level than Lorgar or Horus and their legions ever could, they know not only the benefits but also the risks. The thing is that the Thousand Sons were willing to risk, to sacrifice themselves on the pyre of knowledge but this noble goal was first perverted and then betrayed by the Emperor himself, the mightiest psyker of mankind, the true illuminated one, genewright and sorcerer himself, hence a hypocrite, a liar and a betrayer. 

 

A Thousand Son would not say that the Emperor betrayed his legion, but he would clearly and openly state that the Emperor betrayed his own species for the sake of temporal power and an allegedly secure existence shrouded in a veil of ignorance and lies, thus shutting mankind from its true potential as a species, from the gods which belong to mankind and from the true and tangible power of the Warp (which I would state time and again is bot beneficial and harmful but both aspects are necessary). 

[Disciple of Fulgrim]

So this is all subjective, and a matter of personal taste, and silly nonsense, but here's the way I see it.

 

In 40K, "psykers" exist - fine.  Defining exactly how psychc powers work is a bit murky, but some psykers are clearly more powerful than the others - which is also fine.  But in ToH, the "psychic abilities" that Khayon manifests throughout the story put him (IMO) into the "Alpha Plus, Plus" category of psykers - someone who is clearly uniquely (and suddenly) superior to everyone else, and stands what we know about this (fake) universe on its head.  (Which is why I think it's so funny that Lheor refers to what Khayon does as "magic" on several occasions.  Sure Lheor is a World Eater, but even he's presumably familiar with psykers from other Legions and the xenos, and realizes that Khayon falls into a different, far superior, category.)

 

Why do I say all this?  Because ToH itself took the time to specify the Tlaloc's mass (eight megatonnes,) and the (rough) time Khayon dragged it throught the warp (several months,) how he tossed it at Canticle City (hurled like a spear,) what he suffered enroute (having to "concentrate, sweat, curse and ache,") and what the ultimate cost to Khayon was (dehydration, a short blackout, nausea and weakness.)  Looked at as a whole this, to me, far exceeds anything I've seen any other psyker do in 30 or 40K (since I've never had the pleasure of reading about Ahriman moving planets with his mind) - the Emperor (a god) and Magnus (a demi-god) excepted.  And so this crosses the line from being "psychic powers" to being "magic" for me as well.  (Because if most, or even some, other psykers could even do even a fraction of this, we'd see dreadnaughts being tossed into orbit all the time - but how often does that happen in Black Library 40K fiction?) 

 

A subtle and artificial distinction to be sure, but the main point of making it (for me at least) is this - that if every other Sorceror in 40K is "just" a Psychic, and Khayon is the one real "Magician," (can do whatever he wants, whenever he needs to, with a wave of the hand and little cost,) then the remaining stories in this series are going to be far less than page turners - because how can he ever lose?  So bring on the Pariahs, or Grey Knights, or a toning down of Khayon's powers.  I can live with a power level of 9.9 out of 10 for Khayon (I'd expect nothing less of Abaddon's own) - but cranking things up to 11 for the entire series?  Not so much.      

[Stonerhino]

So this is all subjective, and a matter of personal taste, and silly nonsense, but here's the way I see it.

 

In 40K, "psykers" exist - fine.  Defining exactly how psychc powers work is a bit murky, but some psykers are clearly more powerful than the others - which is also fine.  But in ToH, the "psychic abilities" that Khayon manifests throughout the story put him (IMO) into the "Alpha Plus, Plus" category of psykers - someone who is clearly uniquely (and suddenly) superior to everyone else, and stands what we know about this (fake) universe on its head.  (Which is why I think it's so funny that Lheor refers to what Khayon does as "magic" on several occasions.  Sure Lheor is a World Eater, but even he's presumably familiar with psykers from other Legions and the xenos, and realizes that Khayon falls into a different, far superior, category.)

 

Why do I say all this?  Because ToH itself took the time to specify the Tlaloc's mass (eight megatonnes,) and the (rough) time Khayon dragged it throught the warp (several months,) how he tossed it at Canticle City (hurled like a spear,) what he suffered enroute (having to "concentrate, sweat, curse and ache,") and what the ultimate cost to Khayon was (dehydration, a short blackout, nausea and weakness.)  Looked at as a whole this, to me, far exceeds anything I've seen any other psyker do in 30 or 40K (since I've never had the pleasure of reading about Ahriman moving planets with his mind) - the Emperor (a god) and Magnus (a demi-god) excepted.  And so this crosses the line from being "psychic powers" to being "magic" for me as well.  (Because if most, or even some, other psykers could even do even a fraction of this, we'd see dreadnaughts being tossed into orbit all the time - but how often does that happen in Black Library 40K fiction?) 

 

A subtle and artificial distinction to be sure, but the main point of making it (for me at least) is this - that if every other Sorceror in 40K is "just" a Psychic, and Khayon is the one real "Magician," (can do whatever he wants, whenever he needs to, with a wave of the hand and little cost,) then the remaining stories in this series are going to be far less than page turners - because how can he ever lose?  So bring on the Pariahs, or Grey Knights, or a toning down of Khayon's powers.  I can live with a power level of 9.9 out of 10 for Khayon (I'd expect nothing less of Abaddon's own) - but cranking things up to 11 for the entire series?  Not so much.      

See I disagree with this.  Khayon is not on a level all to himself. 

 

From the effort it took him during the travel.  I fully expected him to be dragging the 1/2 of the planet that the Vengful Spirit was resting on.  Had he accomplished what he did outside of the Eye of Terror it would have been much more impressive.  In 40k everything is relevent and accomplishing feats of great psychic might in an area with a weakened warp/real barrier is far less impressive then in areas where you don't have have that benefit. 

 

Basically throwing a ship in the Eye of Terror is less impressive then tossing a dreadnaught into orbit from some random planet outside of the Eye.  And compared to something like Malcador moving Titan (The moon) into the warp during the siege of Terra.  It looks almost like a simple task.

 

Imagine the difference between Superman flying around the Earth so fast to make it spin backwards and Superman even being able to "Leap tall buildings in a single bound" on Krypton.     

[Volt]

Ok to recap, and to set clear several things. First thing first, the towing of the ship (which I don't understand why is such a problem) was achieved by a sorcerer lord, hailing from a legion of sorcerers, who was also part of the inner circle (despite the betrayal) of the greatest sorcerer of mankind (bar the Emperor, Magnus and Malcador) and who used "space magic" to achieve a feat clearly within the power limits of a natural telekine. His following performance it the battle against the Emperor's Children and the clone of Horus is still what I would call within "operational standards" for an astartes of the legions, a former captain and a warrior with centuries of experience. In short nothing all that extraordinary. On a side note he himself states that a strong mind can shape the Warp at will and not the other way around. 

 

Said that. Death to the False Emperor indeed! 

 

The Imperium at its core is based upon the lie that there are no gods bar the Emperor, the souls go to the side of the Emperor in their afterlife and the psychic gift is just a mutation instead of the veritable destiny of our species. Said that the true potential, and might, and danger, and corruption and the miracles open to mankind with the use of the Warp or due to the influence of some very real gods is denied to us by the Imperial Cult and formerly the Imperial Creed.

 

It is this opportunity to better yourself, to master your fate, to become not only immortal but also this opportunity to shape your existence, your reality and the reality of the universe with your faith, with your courage and your ambition is thus prohibited, shrouded behind a veil of lies and half-truths. 

 

The very core of the Heresy is the revelation of this truth. The truth that every person if he or she is strong enough can become an extraordinary being which can shape the very universe with a gesture or a thought. Not only that but the Thousand Sons were the advocates of an even more sinister truth, the truth that the psychic destiny of mankind could be harnessed, disciplined and allowed to flourish for the betterment of the species. 

 

Of all the legion worlds, Prospero was an utopia, it was harmony, it was tolerance, it was knowledge and learning, exploration and tradition, it was a paradise unlike any other. Prospero and the Thousand Sons themselves were the living breathing proof what heights could humanity achieve if only the species would dare to walk their preordained path, preordained by fate, preordained by, as it was later revealed, true and believable gods. 

 

By the shattering of Prospero way more was destroyed than just the glass pyramids and the vast libraries. What was shattered in truth was the manifest destiny of mankind itself, as a psychic species, as a species able to shape its destiny with knowledge, true knowledge. The Thousand Sons were the living proof that the Emperor was a liar first and foremost, they were also living a lie, enforcing dictates upon the conquered worlds, imperial dictates who were marking the Thousand Sons themselves as a sanctioned abomination.

 

Magnus has many flaws, he was flawed by the psychic mutation, he was flawed in his skin tone, his sons were flawed by the genetic instability of their father and so on. Yet even born as flawed the Thousand Sons proved to be loyal beyond doubt, to be the warriors scholars they were, they never portrayed themselves as anything else and for this reason alone they were betrayed.

 

Magnus did shatter the Webway project, he also broke the edict of Nikea but he did it with the best intentions. The treachery of Horus was learned before it would be unleashed and a sorcerer as Magnus knew full well why it came to treachery in the first place. He did what was in his power to do, he broke the rule for the salvation of the species, he broke the edict in order to deliver the message to his father. I find no guilt here, none at all. 

 

On the other hand the Thousand Sons, or truth be told, their psychic might, would be the tipping point in the oncoming war. Both sides knew that from the moment that the first acts of treachery were planned. Horus had to seal the commitment of the XV legion to his cause, the Space Wolves were a medium to achieve that. In this I only see a cunning application of diplomacy and strategy. If there is a weak link in all this is Russ, and his almost "moronic" following of orders like a whipped dog. 

 

My accusation lies not in the acts which led to the Battle of Prospero but the savagery of the Space Wolves themselves. Russ could have reined them, he could have even deigned to talk with his brother, but always eager to play the executioner, the dog obeyed once again and became a wolf no more, at least in my eyes. 

 

Since we are not here to discuss the "what if" (I hate that) the facts are contradictory at best but the Thousand Sons have many more justifications to hate the Emperor than to stay loyal. First thing first, the Emperor created them and their primarch for a purpose, psychic warfare, there is no denying that. Yet when the Thousand Sons have become the weapon the Emperor wished them to be, they were trialed and betrayed at Nikea. The proofs were ample in their favor. From their diligent and loyal persecution of the Crusade (despite some setbacks) to a clear and telling showcase of Prospero, the living proof that mankind indeed could become much more than just flesh and blood. Yet trialed they were, yet betrayed the Thousand Sons were.

 

We all know what followed but it was not the manipulation of Horus that hurt most, what hurt most, what betrayal was the greatest was the very order given by the Emperor himself to capture Magnus and his sons for their persecution of sorcery. Also it was the inherent flaw of mutation, engineered or perhaps as a side effect by the Emperor himself that plagued the legion and forced many times the hand of Magnus and his coven of XV legion lords. Betrayed not only by the liege they owed their existence but also by the very flesh the Emperor gave them, it is a wonder why the Thousand Sons were so adamantly loyal until the bitter end. Many other legions would have shattered their shackles way before them (World Eaters for example). 

 

In truth Tzeentch both proved to be the salvation and the doom of the Thousand Sons but his intervention was never of sanction, in fact, broken as it may be the Rubic did achieve its goal, the spirits of the legionnaires are still there, in their suits of armor so not everything is lost, and hope, this very vaunted ideal is the reasons why the Thousand Sons are in such a plight and their actions misunderstood. 

 

My observation is that of all the legions the Thousand Sons are the ones who have really thought things out, they are the scholars, the academics and the learned ones of the astartes legion hence their actions are always measured and pondered. When they have sided with Horus, probably several years already into the Heresy, the did so as a calculated effort, as a very measured response to what happened to them. Have they overlooked the betrayal of Horus? No, they have not, it has not escaped them nor to their primarch. But the betrayal of the Emperor hurt more and had to be avenged. 

 

If you dedicate your whole existence to the persecution of knowledge and understanding, and then you are ordered to lower yourself to the status of an ignorant for the sake of the species (and mostly political consent) yet you know that in your knowledge lies the key to the salvation of mankind... in truth I would have continued to study and practice my art. The Thousand Sons simply followed the logic conclusions and while the betrayal of Horus is strategy, the betrayal of their creator and Emperor is true betrayal, the betrayal of their flesh, their soul and their purpose. 

 

To understand a Thousand Sons you should think as a scholar, void of emotions, knowledgeable and daring. They know what their psychic talent can bring to mankind, they know about the truth behind the veil, they know it on an academic and more detailed level than Lorgar or Horus and their legions ever could, they know not only the benefits but also the risks. The thing is that the Thousand Sons were willing to risk, to sacrifice themselves on the pyre of knowledge but this noble goal was first perverted and then betrayed by the Emperor himself, the mightiest psyker of mankind, the true illuminated one, genewright and sorcerer himself, hence a hypocrite, a liar and a betrayer. 

 

A Thousand Son would not say that the Emperor betrayed his legion, but he would clearly and openly state that the Emperor betrayed his own species for the sake of temporal power and an allegedly secure existence shrouded in a veil of ignorance and lies, thus shutting mankind from its true potential as a species, from the gods which belong to mankind and from the true and tangible power of the Warp (which I would state time and again is bot beneficial and harmful but both aspects are necessary). 

http://gifs.gifbin.com/1233928590_citizen%20kane%20clapping.gif

 

Far better said then I could ever do so.

 

But as an admendum, of all the Legions and all the factions of the Space Marines, I could see the Thousands Sons getting along with the Eldar better then anyone else, possibly explaining Khayon's girlfriend thrall, although it would be more relevant to the Craftworlders. I imagine that were Ahriman to simply sit down and talk with Eldar like civilized folk, they might even agree with each other. Tzeentch is not the enemy of the Eldar, and is not as inherently violent as Khorne or Slaanesh. Indeed, Prospero and the Thousand Sons were the closest humans to reach the standards and culture of the Craftworld Eldar.

 

 

 

So this is all subjective, and a matter of personal taste, and silly nonsense, but here's the way I see it.

 

In 40K, "psykers" exist - fine.  Defining exactly how psychc powers work is a bit murky, but some psykers are clearly more powerful than the others - which is also fine.  But in ToH, the "psychic abilities" that Khayon manifests throughout the story put him (IMO) into the "Alpha Plus, Plus" category of psykers - someone who is clearly uniquely (and suddenly) superior to everyone else, and stands what we know about this (fake) universe on its head.  (Which is why I think it's so funny that Lheor refers to what Khayon does as "magic" on several occasions.  Sure Lheor is a World Eater, but even he's presumably familiar with psykers from other Legions and the xenos, and realizes that Khayon falls into a different, far superior, category.)

 

Why do I say all this?  Because ToH itself took the time to specify the Tlaloc's mass (eight megatonnes,) and the (rough) time Khayon dragged it throught the warp (several months,) how he tossed it at Canticle City (hurled like a spear,) what he suffered enroute (having to "concentrate, sweat, curse and ache,") and what the ultimate cost to Khayon was (dehydration, a short blackout, nausea and weakness.)  Looked at as a whole this, to me, far exceeds anything I've seen any other psyker do in 30 or 40K (since I've never had the pleasure of reading about Ahriman moving planets with his mind) - the Emperor (a god) and Magnus (a demi-god) excepted.  And so this crosses the line from being "psychic powers" to being "magic" for me as well.  (Because if most, or even some, other psykers could even do even a fraction of this, we'd see dreadnaughts being tossed into orbit all the time - but how often does that happen in Black Library 40K fiction?) 

 

A subtle and artificial distinction to be sure, but the main point of making it (for me at least) is this - that if every other Sorceror in 40K is "just" a Psychic, and Khayon is the one real "Magician," (can do whatever he wants, whenever he needs to, with a wave of the hand and little cost,) then the remaining stories in this series are going to be far less than page turners - because how can he ever lose?  So bring on the Pariahs, or Grey Knights, or a toning down of Khayon's powers.  I can live with a power level of 9.9 out of 10 for Khayon (I'd expect nothing less of Abaddon's own) - but cranking things up to 11 for the entire series?  Not so much.      

 

I really don't think you understand just how powerful some psykers are. Khayon is not Alpha Plus lol, not even remotely close to Alpha even. At best he's a Beta, and even that's pushing it. An Alpha level psyker is capable of enthralling hundreds of billions of people simultaneously, turning them all into his puppets even across star systems. They can kill entire planets with a twitch of their eyebrows, wipe away legions of Titans with a glare and raze entire armies without having to drop ships on them. They can stop time, teleport across the galaxy, pimp slap Greater Daemons, raze fleets, etc.

 

Alpha Plus is the level of the God Emperor of Mankind, who is powerful enough to engage all four Chaos Gods in a game of mental determination and stalemate them all. Sure he's slipping, but he's been able to hold back the legions of unreality for ten thousand years. Against Chaos Gods.

[The Red Thirst]

*Snip*

To understand a Thousand Sons you should think as a scholar, void of emotions, knowledgeable and daring. They know what their psychic talent can bring to mankind, they know about the truth behind the veil, they know it on an academic and more detailed level than Lorgar or Horus and their legions ever could, they know not only the benefits but also the risks. The thing is that the Thousand Sons were willing to risk, to sacrifice themselves on the pyre of knowledge but this noble goal was first perverted and then betrayed by the Emperor himself, the mightiest psyker of mankind, the true illuminated one, genewright and sorcerer himself, hence a hypocrite, a liar and a betrayer.

Bravo sir, Bravo this is exactly how I see the Thousand Sons. My only hope is that such a view of their Legion get fleshed out ( ) in the Prospero Heresy book, that was an amazing read (the seeds of corruption have been planted )

So this is all subjective, and a matter of personal taste, and silly nonsense, but here's the way I see it.

In 40K, "psykers" exist - fine. Defining exactly how psychc powers work is a bit murky, but some psykers are clearly more powerful than the others - which is also fine. But in ToH, the "psychic abilities" that Khayon manifests throughout the story put him (IMO) into the "Alpha Plus, Plus" category of psykers - someone who is clearly uniquely (and suddenly) superior to everyone else, and stands what we know about this (fake) universe on its head. (Which is why I think it's so funny that Lheor refers to what Khayon does as "magic" on several occasions. Sure Lheor is a World Eater, but even he's presumably familiar with psykers from other Legions and the xenos, and realizes that Khayon falls into a different, far superior, category.)

Why do I say all this? Because ToH itself took the time to specify the Tlaloc's mass (eight megatonnes,) and the (rough) time Khayon dragged it throught the warp (several months,) how he tossed it at Canticle City (hurled like a spear,) what he suffered enroute (having to "concentrate, sweat, curse and ache,") and what the ultimate cost to Khayon was (dehydration, a short blackout, nausea and weakness.) Looked at as a whole this, to me, far exceeds anything I've seen any other psyker do in 30 or 40K (since I've never had the pleasure of reading about Ahriman moving planets with his mind) - the Emperor (a god) and Magnus (a demi-god) excepted. And so this crosses the line from being "psychic powers" to being "magic" for me as well. (Because if most, or even some, other psykers could even do even a fraction of this, we'd see dreadnaughts being tossed into orbit all the time - but how often does that happen in Black Library 40K fiction?)

A subtle and artificial distinction to be sure, but the main point of making it (for me at least) is this - that if every other Sorceror in 40K is "just" a Psychic, and Khayon is the one real "Magician," (can do whatever he wants, whenever he needs to, with a wave of the hand and little cost,) then the remaining stories in this series are going to be far less than page turners - because how can he ever lose? So bring on the Pariahs, or Grey Knights, or a toning down of Khayon's powers. I can live with a power level of 9.9 out of 10 for Khayon (I'd expect nothing less of Abaddon's own) - but cranking things up to 11 for the entire series? Not so much.

See I disagree with this. Khayon is not on a level all to himself.

From the effort it took him during the travel. I fully expected him to be dragging the 1/2 of the planet that the Vengful Spirit was resting on. Had he accomplished what he did outside of the Eye of Terror it would have been much more impressive. In 40k everything is relevent and accomplishing feats of great psychic might in an area with a weakened warp/real barrier is far less impressive then in areas where you don't have have that benefit.

Basically throwing a ship in the Eye of Terror is less impressive then tossing a dreadnaught into orbit from some random planet outside of the Eye. And compared to something like Malcador moving Titan (The moon) into the warp during the siege of Terra. It looks almost like a simple task.

Imagine the difference between Superman flying around the Earth so fast to make it spin backwards and Superman even being able to "Leap tall buildings in a single bound" on Krypton.

I think what alot of people are forgetting is the fact that Khayon is not just a psyker, but also an astartes... beings that at the best of times can go through weeks of constant physical fighting without rest, who can perform complex multitasking and mathematical calculations on the fly all while riding a jet bike, cutting someones head off with a sword in one hand and shooting someone else in their periphery vision with their other. This is basic stuff for any astartes, then we look at Khayon, not just a Librarian but a Captain of the Thousand Sons legion, the greatest warrior scholars in the galaxy, all he had to do was sit there and concentrate, in a warded room in the middle of the Eye, surrounded by all the power it provides... I honestly can't find anything wrong with this, not when you consider that even Astropaths can project their tiny thoughts over the vast distances of the Imperium

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

are we given some leeway to turn this into a Thousand Sons morality post or staying on topic of the book itself?

 

I only ask because I have no doubt I've derailed topics in the past by veering off, and Tenebris wrote an elegant if somewhat slanted view that gets the nerd in me typing.

 

WLK

[Tenebris]

/knocks three times on the table

 

A D-B if you can hear me, can you answer on my question about the legacy of the Sons of Horus? /Plz. kthxbye

[Rain]

What happened to the Thousand Sons was almost entrapment. The Emperor created a primarch and a legion capable of seeing into the warp and drawing knowledge and power from it, and then told them not to use it without explanation, even though he used it himself. I was the ultimate paternalistic "do as I say not as I do" act, and we all know how well that tends to work out. Maybe if he had actually respected the intellect of his superhuman genius son a little bit, he could have explained to him why he didn't want him using sorcery, and the nature of Chaos, etc. Honestly I think the Emperor is by construction the worst written character in the 40k fiction, he is a godlike superhuman Mary Sue with the behavioral characteristics of a bipolar stepdad.

[Chaeron]

/knocks three times on the table

 

A D-B if you can hear me, can you answer on my question about the legacy of the Sons of Horus? /Plz. kthxbye

 

An act of summoning like that would take months of time and effort... your full concentration... channelling all your power to drag a ship of that magnitude through warp space...

 

...wait.

are we given some leeway to turn this into a Thousand Sons morality post or staying on topic of the book itself?

 

Or lack thereof. Certainly that's more Ahriman's descent than any others - and Abaddon is the perfect foil or counterpoint to all of the madness of the other legions.

[Volt]

What happened to the Thousand Sons was almost entrapment. The Emperor created a primarch and a legion capable of seeing into the warp and drawing knowledge and power from it, and then told them not to use it without explanation, even though he used it himself. I was the ultimate paternalistic "do as I say not as I do" act, and we all know how well that tends to work out. Maybe if he had actually respected the intellect of his superhuman genius son a little bit, he could have explained to him why he didn't want him using sorcery, and the nature of Chaos, etc. Honestly I think the Emperor is by construction the worst written character in the 40k fiction, he is a godlike superhuman Mary Sue with the behavioral characteristics of a bipolar stepdad.

Well to be completely fair, he's a composite entity made of thousands of fused souls. Probably isn't going to be sane, or at least act how we would expect.

 

Although by Gav's Dark Angel's books, he seems to have mellowed out.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

.

 

Ok to recap, and to set clear several things. First thing first, the towing of the ship (which I don't understand why is such a problem) was achieved by a sorcerer lord, hailing from a legion of sorcerers, who was also part of the inner circle (despite the betrayal) of the greatest sorcerer of mankind (bar the Emperor, Magnus and Malcador) and who used "space magic" to achieve a feat clearly within the power limits of a natural telekine. His following performance it the battle against the Emperor's Children and the clone of Horus is still what I would call within "operational standards" for an astartes of the legions, a former captain and a warrior with centuries of experience. In short nothing all that extraordinary. On a side note he himself states that a strong mind can shape the Warp at will and not the other way around. 

 

Said that. Death to the False Emperor indeed! 

 

The Imperium at its core is based upon the lie that there are no gods bar the Emperor, the souls go to the side of the Emperor in their afterlife and the psychic gift is just a mutation instead of the veritable destiny of our species. Said that the true potential, and might, and danger, and corruption and the miracles open to mankind with the use of the Warp or due to the influence of some very real gods is denied to us by the Imperial Cult and formerly the Imperial Creed.

 

It is this opportunity to better yourself, to master your fate, to become not only immortal but also this opportunity to shape your existence, your reality and the reality of the universe with your faith, with your courage and your ambition is thus prohibited, shrouded behind a veil of lies and half-truths. 

 

The very core of the Heresy is the revelation of this truth. The truth that every person if he or she is strong enough can become an extraordinary being which can shape the very universe with a gesture or a thought. Not only that but the Thousand Sons were the advocates of an even more sinister truth, the truth that the psychic destiny of mankind could be harnessed, disciplined and allowed to flourish for the betterment of the species. 

 

Of all the legion worlds, Prospero was an utopia, it was harmony, it was tolerance, it was knowledge and learning, exploration and tradition, it was a paradise unlike any other. Prospero and the Thousand Sons themselves were the living breathing proof what heights could humanity achieve if only the species would dare to walk their preordained path, preordained by fate, preordained by, as it was later revealed, true and believable gods. 

 

By the shattering of Prospero way more was destroyed than just the glass pyramids and the vast libraries. What was shattered in truth was the manifest destiny of mankind itself, as a psychic species, as a species able to shape its destiny with knowledge, true knowledge. The Thousand Sons were the living proof that the Emperor was a liar first and foremost, they were also living a lie, enforcing dictates upon the conquered worlds, imperial dictates who were marking the Thousand Sons themselves as a sanctioned abomination.

 

Magnus has many flaws, he was flawed by the psychic mutation, he was flawed in his skin tone, his sons were flawed by the genetic instability of their father and so on. Yet even born as flawed the Thousand Sons proved to be loyal beyond doubt, to be the warriors scholars they were, they never portrayed themselves as anything else and for this reason alone they were betrayed.

 

Magnus did shatter the Webway project, he also broke the edict of Nikea but he did it with the best intentions. The treachery of Horus was learned before it would be unleashed and a sorcerer as Magnus knew full well why it came to treachery in the first place. He did what was in his power to do, he broke the rule for the salvation of the species, he broke the edict in order to deliver the message to his father. I find no guilt here, none at all. 

 

On the other hand the Thousand Sons, or truth be told, their psychic might, would be the tipping point in the oncoming war. Both sides knew that from the moment that the first acts of treachery were planned. Horus had to seal the commitment of the XV legion to his cause, the Space Wolves were a medium to achieve that. In this I only see a cunning application of diplomacy and strategy. If there is a weak link in all this is Russ, and his almost "moronic" following of orders like a whipped dog. 

 

My accusation lies not in the acts which led to the Battle of Prospero but the savagery of the Space Wolves themselves. Russ could have reined them, he could have even deigned to talk with his brother, but always eager to play the executioner, the dog obeyed once again and became a wolf no more, at least in my eyes. 

 

Since we are not here to discuss the "what if" (I hate that) the facts are contradictory at best but the Thousand Sons have many more justifications to hate the Emperor than to stay loyal. First thing first, the Emperor created them and their primarch for a purpose, psychic warfare, there is no denying that. Yet when the Thousand Sons have become the weapon the Emperor wished them to be, they were trialed and betrayed at Nikea. The proofs were ample in their favor. From their diligent and loyal persecution of the Crusade (despite some setbacks) to a clear and telling showcase of Prospero, the living proof that mankind indeed could become much more than just flesh and blood. Yet trialed they were, yet betrayed the Thousand Sons were.

 

We all know what followed but it was not the manipulation of Horus that hurt most, what hurt most, what betrayal was the greatest was the very order given by the Emperor himself to capture Magnus and his sons for their persecution of sorcery. Also it was the inherent flaw of mutation, engineered or perhaps as a side effect by the Emperor himself that plagued the legion and forced many times the hand of Magnus and his coven of XV legion lords. Betrayed not only by the liege they owed their existence but also by the very flesh the Emperor gave them, it is a wonder why the Thousand Sons were so adamantly loyal until the bitter end. Many other legions would have shattered their shackles way before them (World Eaters for example). 

 

In truth Tzeentch both proved to be the salvation and the doom of the Thousand Sons but his intervention was never of sanction, in fact, broken as it may be the Rubic did achieve its goal, the spirits of the legionnaires are still there, in their suits of armor so not everything is lost, and hope, this very vaunted ideal is the reasons why the Thousand Sons are in such a plight and their actions misunderstood. 

 

My observation is that of all the legions the Thousand Sons are the ones who have really thought things out, they are the scholars, the academics and the learned ones of the astartes legion hence their actions are always measured and pondered. When they have sided with Horus, probably several years already into the Heresy, the did so as a calculated effort, as a very measured response to what happened to them. Have they overlooked the betrayal of Horus? No, they have not, it has not escaped them nor to their primarch. But the betrayal of the Emperor hurt more and had to be avenged. 

 

If you dedicate your whole existence to the persecution of knowledge and understanding, and then you are ordered to lower yourself to the status of an ignorant for the sake of the species (and mostly political consent) yet you know that in your knowledge lies the key to the salvation of mankind... in truth I would have continued to study and practice my art. The Thousand Sons simply followed the logic conclusions and while the betrayal of Horus is strategy, the betrayal of their creator and Emperor is true betrayal, the betrayal of their flesh, their soul and their purpose. 

 

To understand a Thousand Sons you should think as a scholar, void of emotions, knowledgeable and daring. They know what their psychic talent can bring to mankind, they know about the truth behind the veil, they know it on an academic and more detailed level than Lorgar or Horus and their legions ever could, they know not only the benefits but also the risks. The thing is that the Thousand Sons were willing to risk, to sacrifice themselves on the pyre of knowledge but this noble goal was first perverted and then betrayed by the Emperor himself, the mightiest psyker of mankind, the true illuminated one, genewright and sorcerer himself, hence a hypocrite, a liar and a betrayer. 

 

A Thousand Son would not say that the Emperor betrayed his legion, but he would clearly and openly state that the Emperor betrayed his own species for the sake of temporal power and an allegedly secure existence shrouded in a veil of ignorance and lies, thus shutting mankind from its true potential as a species, from the gods which belong to mankind and from the true and tangible power of the Warp (which I would state time and again is bot beneficial and harmful but both aspects are necessary).

 

http://gifs.gifbin.com/1233928590_citizen%20kane%20clapping.gif

 

Far better said then I could ever do so.

 

But as an admendum, of all the Legions and all the factions of the Space Marines, I could see the Thousands Sons getting along with the Eldar better then anyone else, possibly explaining Khayon's girlfriend thrall, although it would be more relevant to the Craftworlders. I imagine that were Ahriman to simply sit down and talk with Eldar like civilized folk, they might even agree with each other. Tzeentch is not the enemy of the Eldar, and is not as inherently violent as Khorne or Slaanesh. Indeed, Prospero and the Thousand Sons were the closest humans to reach the standards and culture of the Craftworld Eldar.

 

 

 

So this is all subjective, and a matter of personal taste, and silly nonsense, but here's the way I see it.

 

In 40K, "psykers" exist - fine.  Defining exactly how psychc powers work is a bit murky, but some psykers are clearly more powerful than the others - which is also fine.  But in ToH, the "psychic abilities" that Khayon manifests throughout the story put him (IMO) into the "Alpha Plus, Plus" category of psykers - someone who is clearly uniquely (and suddenly) superior to everyone else, and stands what we know about this (fake) universe on its head.  (Which is why I think it's so funny that Lheor refers to what Khayon does as "magic" on several occasions.  Sure Lheor is a World Eater, but even he's presumably familiar with psykers from other Legions and the xenos, and realizes that Khayon falls into a different, far superior, category.)

 

Why do I say all this?  Because ToH itself took the time to specify the Tlaloc's mass (eight megatonnes,) and the (rough) time Khayon dragged it throught the warp (several months,) how he tossed it at Canticle City (hurled like a spear,) what he suffered enroute (having to "concentrate, sweat, curse and ache,") and what the ultimate cost to Khayon was (dehydration, a short blackout, nausea and weakness.)  Looked at as a whole this, to me, far exceeds anything I've seen any other psyker do in 30 or 40K (since I've never had the pleasure of reading about Ahriman moving planets with his mind) - the Emperor (a god) and Magnus (a demi-god) excepted.  And so this crosses the line from being "psychic powers" to being "magic" for me as well.  (Because if most, or even some, other psykers could even do even a fraction of this, we'd see dreadnaughts being tossed into orbit all the time - but how often does that happen in Black Library 40K fiction?) 

 

A subtle and artificial distinction to be sure, but the main point of making it (for me at least) is this - that if every other Sorceror in 40K is "just" a Psychic, and Khayon is the one real "Magician," (can do whatever he wants, whenever he needs to, with a wave of the hand and little cost,) then the remaining stories in this series are going to be far less than page turners - because how can he ever lose?  So bring on the Pariahs, or Grey Knights, or a toning down of Khayon's powers.  I can live with a power level of 9.9 out of 10 for Khayon (I'd expect nothing less of Abaddon's own) - but cranking things up to 11 for the entire series?  Not so much.

 

 

I really don't think you understand just how powerful some psykers are. Khayon is not Alpha Plus lol, not even remotely close to Alpha even. At best he's a Beta, and even that's pushing it. An Alpha level psyker is capable of enthralling hundreds of billions of people simultaneously, turning them all into his puppets even across star systems. They can kill entire planets with a twitch of their eyebrows, wipe away legions of Titans with a glare and raze entire armies without having to drop ships on them. They can stop time, teleport across the galaxy, pimp slap Greater Daemons, raze fleets, etc.

 

Alpha Plus is the level of the God Emperor of Mankind, who is powerful enough to engage all four Chaos Gods in a game of mental determination and stalemate them all. Sure he's slipping, but he's been able to hold back the legions of unreality for ten thousand years. Against Chaos Gods.

Except we never see that happen other than an incredibly vague passage in the rulebook. It is completely and utterly out of scale with anything in the rest of the 40K franchise. Magnus, who is one of the top 3 Psykers in 40k canon, was completely drained after destroying a Titan. Heck, the Emperor himself had to put his full power into destroying a moon sized asteroid. I don't care about Khayon's performance against Horus but I have trouble accepting that Khayon did something far beyond what his master was capable of doing. If the whole thing was a ritual that required lots of prep I could accept it but not just an off the hand power. Sorry if this comes off a little rant-like.

[Wade Garrett]

My problem with the Thousand Sons and their "woe is us" schtick is that the so called utopia they created on Prospero (I am skeptical that a world governed by genetically altered murder wizards who would happily feed a sick woman to brain slugs if it meant getting their hands on some prophetic knowledge was that great of a place to live) was built on lies and daemonic pacts.

 

Magnus only had a Legion because of his bargain with Tzeencht to cure the Flesh Change. Everything else was built off that one blasphemous act and the deceptions he wove to conceal it. When the XV speak of their scholarship, of how they were the wisest and most enlightened of all the Legions...

 

They fell into corruption because the powers they thought they'd mastered instead controlled them, slaves to the whims of the gods and spirits they assured one another didn't exist.

 

And the Black Legion calls the SPACE WOLVES "the Deceived"?

[Olis]

I think you know full well Thousand Son fans won't see it that way, Wade. ;)

[Prot]

I felt sorry for the Thousand Sons but I did think Magnus was way over his head, and I totally understood the Emperor's anger with him...

 

Here's dad, working away on his prized 57 chevy in an old underground batman-esque style garage. Then comes son barging in the door, 'Hey dad I'm here to borrow the car'.

 

Of course it gets completely wrecked by the kid, thus proving that 1) never lend your kid a prized car you've worked on, and 2) Magnus never knew what he was really doing until it was too late.

 

The part that surprised me is dad tried taking his driving privileges away forever. This always causes kids to rebel, and I'm surprised the Emperor didn't see that coming. (especially since it was obvious the Legions needed their Psykers to properly defend themselves.)

 

In that case, the emperor made a massive mistake... just as he did scolding Logar, and not telling any of his kids about Chaos (which is still the strangest thing of all to me.)

 

Again I'm a simple man, but didn't Horus send the Wolves after the 1K sons? Dad might have been a hypocrite, but I think he still wanted Magnus to have the paneled station wagon on the weekends, but we never made it that far.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Well, The Emperor did warn several primarchs, including Magnus, of the specific dangers of the Warp. 

 

The Emperor sent Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra in chains. Horus altered the orders, and Russ followed the altered orders as Horus was the Warmaster and the voice of the Emperor.

 

The main complaints of the Emperor's stupidity comes from authors trying to make sense of 20+ years of snippets released from GW. GW wrote of the Heresy long before actual authors tried to make sense of it, and I hope the authors the best in fixing and hopefully clarifying some of the Emperor's actions.

Lorgar's scolding as his version of Nikea. He had been advised, then warned, of his Legions slow progress and the Emperor's discontent with his actions. Moncharia may have been heavy handed, but as Lorgrar's interactions with Guilliman show, he clearly felt more offense than was intended.

 

WLK

[Rain]

The problem with Lorgar's scolding is that Lorgar was right. The Emperor was obviously for all intents and purposes a god, at least in the way gods are gods in the 40k universe. Yeah the Emperor told the primarchs not to do this or that, but something doesn't become good or true just because a figure in authority says it is, and that was what both Lorgar and Magnus reacted to. That said, Magnus was rather arrogant, and may have thought that he could outsmart Tzeentch even if he understood that Tzeentch was sentient and a Chaos god, but he would have been much better prepared if the Emperor shared his own knowledge with him instead of just telling him to stay out of the basement.