++ The Dark Council - A Word Bearers Community ++

[TheDarkApostle]

According to the old Word Bearer Index Astartes article, most Word Bearer hosts are the size of a Battle Company (100), with a couple of Hosts being the size of an entire Chapter (1000).

 

Dark Apostle = Chapter Master + High Chaplain/Master of the Sanctity, doing both roles

Coryphaus = Captain/Master of the Marches + Master of the Watch

First Acolyte = Master of the Librarium + Master of the Rites + second in command Chaplain

 

Regardless of size of the Host, alot of the loyalist equivalents are mashed together into one single role among the Word Bearers.

 

The other ranks are pretty fluid and not necessarily present in every Host, and individual usage of Champion/Aspiring Champion/Squad Captain/Lieutenant is really down to personal preference/inconsistencies not caught by the editors.

 

Another way of looking at it Aspiring Champion = Veteran Sergeant while Champion = regular Sergeant. Or the other way around, these things seems to be quite up to the individual author :P

[Lord_Starscream]

In the Heresy we had the second largest Legion, second only to the Ultramarines.

 

Post Heresy, I believe the Black Legion and the Astral Claws are the only Chaos Space Marine factions which are bigger. Means we've got some weight behind our hosts. The true crime is that we're not the biggest Legion in Chaos, of course.

 

The way they've assembled the Word Bearers leadership structure has always been a mess though, as The Dark Apostle has said.

[Apostle of the 30th Host]

Hello brothers. I've just finished the WB omnibus and it was actually a very addictive read. This book, however, left me with a bit of confusion in my head so I have a few (lots) question for you, veterans of the Word. I'll break this questions onto 3 groups, fluff, gaming and modeling.

 

So here we go.

 

+++FLUFF+++

 

I have trouble when comparing the 30k WB to their 40k brothers. Regarding legion organization we have Chapters in 30k and Hosts in 40k. I'm assuming a Host is a Chapter here, but maybe is not and I love to know what t is. Because you can look at a Host like if it is a Company:

 

Capt = Coryphaus

Chappy = Dark Apostle

Company Standard Bearer = Icon Bearer

Champions = Sarges

Coteries = Squads

 

Which makes sense (in my head at least). However in the Omnibus, it refers (or looks like it does to me, at least) to the coteries sometimes like squads (most of the time) sometimes like companies. Which is annoying. Having read and cross checked the FW HH books regarding the WB it doesn't mention those names (AFAIK, maybe I need to double check). Lexicanum instead does, and also does it 1D4chan, which confuses me further (I know, is not a reliable source) saying that a Champion is a squad Captain and an Aspiring Champion a squad Sgt. is a squad Cpt? I didn't know that rank unless they meant Company Lieutenants. But that would make sense if a Host is the equivalent of a Chapter:

 

Chapter Master = Coryphaus

High Chappy = DA

Chappy = First Acolyte

Chapter Vexillarius = Icon Bearer

Champion = Company Cptn.

Aspiring Champ = Sgt.

 

I would love some clarification here because my head is a mess

 

+++GAMING+++

 

From the gaming perspective, WB lacks the Diabolist figure, unless we make it with a mix of DA & sorc. For that, the sorcerer needs to be the warlord to get Zealot. Then we have the problem of survivability when summoning (or just gaming, because T4 W2). The obvious solution here is a ML 3 sorc with MoN in a Palanquin, now he gets his stats buffed to T5 W4, with a Sigil and a familiar he can surely survive the perils of conjuration. And that's what I intend to do. My doubt here is what relic to take; the Crozius is good, because we get S6 AP3 on top of T5 W4, but being a sorc he loves to have a force weapon for ID shenanigans; on the other part, we have the Malefic Tome, which is also cool for an extra power. And I really don't know which one to take, some advice would be very appreciated.

 

Rough draft on the list is

 

Warband

Lord (undecided wargear)

Diabolist (ML3 sorc with MoN and everything as stated above, relic to be decided)

Terminators

3 CSM squads

1 Raptor unit (Ashen Circle ofc!)

1 or 2 Havoc squads

 

Aux

Spawn

 

Helcult

Dread (undecided loadout but leaning to RAC & Fist)

20 Cultists

20 Cultists

 

That's at 2k points (if I have room, I'll ally a Tzeerald with some horrors for more summoning)

 

Any thoughts here will be neat! (No, I'm not going to deploy any Character inside the cultist cannon fodder, they're meat and lowly scum to be granted such honor, even if gamewise would be advisable )

 

+++MODELING+++

 

The question here would be about modeling the palanquin (some brother asked the same, but can find the post) without being nurgle-ish. Would be ok to model it with 3 power armor dudes in a dread base? The couple dudes will be those extra wounds and he can join a CSM squad without looking weird. But if this would be a problem gamewise I'll consider other options. If you have an awesome idea to share on that regard, please, be my guest!

 

Fluff:

I personally do not see the Hosts of the Word Bearers as being equivalent to a 40k Space Marine company. I can see why you have said that, as when you think about it in terms of roles, then there are parallels in the most basic form, but for me, being a 30k player too, I can really see the evolution of the Host from the Organisation of Legions in 30k.

I think this makes a lot more sense as what the Word Bearers have is unique to them, and whilst there are some similarities to the modern 40k Company, that is a post-heresy invention and the only reason they are similar is because they share the same roots (i.e. Legion organisation). As the Word Bearers ended the Heresy as a Legion and did not go through the whole reorganisation that the loyalists did, it seems logical that where they are now stems from what they knew at the time.

However, it is also a lot more complicated than that as every Host is different. Some are not much bigger than your average Space Marine Company, whist others number in the thousands and will some degree of the breakdown in the diagram below (see link), although to a lesser extent as the organisation has become corrupted.

I use this diagram a lot in my own conceptualising of a Host, although I will attempt to explain it more in terms of a Large and Small Host:

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/3/38/Space_Marine_Legion_Structure_1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20131001033403

 

Command Structure

Dark Apostle = N/A

I do not believe there is an equivalent to the Dark Apostle in truth. Obviously they originated as the Chaplains of 30k, but they are now much more than that.

In the novel First Heretic you can see the evolution of the Chaplain. Firstly the Chaplain is just your standard 40k Chaplain in a 30k setting, serving under the Captain or Chapter Master and just focussing on the spiritual needs of the Astartes. This progresses through the novel though until the Chaplains / Chapter Masters are on equal standing; both performing very different roles, but of equal importance – for example, the Chaplains are given the knowledge that is to be passed down from Erebus but the Chapter Masters are not allowed to know until the rest of the Chapter does.

It is easy to see how following the Heresy, as more and more emphasis was placed on worshipping the Chaos Gods the Chaplain (now Dark Apostle) has surpassed the Chapter Master as leader of the Chapter. They no longer fulfil the role of a Chaplin at this stage however as it is mentioned in the Omnibus that it is important for a Dark Apostle to remain aloof from his Host so that they come to see that he is beyond them; a holy vessel of the Gods’ will itself. And so I doubt he would be talking to individual Astartes like a Chaplain would have. The Dark Apostle leads the rituals and worship, and has overall direction of the Host but is more of a backseat reverential figure.

Therefore, they are not like a Chapter Master either as they do not lead the Host beyond grand scope of things. i.e. In the Omnibus, Jarulek wants the Artefact but beyond that, the specifics is left up to others while he does Sorcery and other things.

 

Coryphaus = Chapter Master / Praetor

This is the Lord level character in 40k and fulfils all the roles of a Chapter Master. He basically leads the Host in all but name as the Dark Apostle gives instruction and the Coryphaus has the autonomy to make it happen.

He is basically the voice and hand of the Dark Apostle, enacting his will but with total freedom.

In 40k terms, the Coryphaus is a Chapter Master, and the Dark Apostle is the Inquisition. Broadly speaking, an Inquisitor is in charge (assuming he has requisitioned a chapter), but the Chapter Master is generally allowed to do as he pleases to complete the task.

He is also the link between the Dark Apostle and the Host so that the Apostle can remain aloof.

 

First Acolyte = Chapter Consul

Essentially a Dark Apostle in training. Pretty much the 40k Chaplain equivalent, being just below the Coryphaus, but will inspire the Host on the field while remaining part of it.

 

Icon Bearer = Chapter Vexillarius

 

Rest of the Host:

In the 30k Structure, there are Batallions and Companies and all break down with sub-commanders etc, however I think that much of this organisation would have broken down by the 41^st Millennium.

It really just depends on the size. A small host might not be more than a 30k Company (these are most similar to your 40k Companies. But a large Host could be several Battalions with whatever structure the Dark Apostle desires (you’re free to decide for yourself)

What you are left with are various Coteries (squads) which are led by Aspiring Champions. These have different functions and might be equivalent to a basic squad of CSM or Havocs or Raptors.

Sometimes, a senior figure might be appointed to lead a group of Coteries. This might be under a Veteran (Champion or the old Lieutenant equivalent – or a 30k Centurion – in a large Host) or even just the most able Aspiring Champion of the group.

i.e. 1^st, 4^th, 7^th and 8^th Coteries are put under the command of a member of the Anointed to hit a certain target mid-battle. This could temporarily reflect a 30k Company, but these distictions no longer exist.

So a Coterie is just a squad, and the plural would be coteries for more than one.

There is also the Possessed, which seem to be quite independent of structure and are more like shock troops.

And the Anointed, which is a Cult within the Legion that is spread throughout the Hosts. For example, if there were 100,000 Word Bearers, 5,000 of them could be in the Anointed, and these 5,000 are spread through every Host. So I could have 30 in my small Host, you could have 50 in your medium one, someone could have 200 in a large one.

 

Gaming:

In reference to the Diabolist, I think that is because they no longer exist in 40k. In 30k, they are unique as they are immersed in the Lore of Chaos at a time when the Legion was only just discovering it. I like to think they assisted the Chaplains with rituals and were kind of like a faith based Librarian if that makes sense.

By the time of 40k, Diabolists aren’t special in the Word Bearers. They all know the lore and secrets of Chaos. Some more than others, and not everyone is Psychic but they have embraced Chaos for 10,000 years. The leaders of the Legion are well versed in all matters of Chaos now and so their uniqueness is lost.

I suppose a 40k equivalent could be a Lvl 1 Sorcerer who could be like a Champion (i.e. 30k Company Commander) who leads a few Coteries.

 

As for the list, it’s a lot like what I’m working on currently and looks fluffy. Maybe the Lord is your Coryphaus and the Sorcerer is the First Acolyte instead?

 

Modelling:

 

You might mean this thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329568-undivided-palanquin-of-nurgle/

Although I have started re-reading the omnibus too and loved the description of Jarulek’s Chariot. Sounds more like a Disc of Tzeentch, but something like that just sort of floating would be pretty cool.

 

Sorry for such a long post, I hope I explained everything okay. Just my thoughts of course but I tried to give some reasoning for it.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Always wanted to see a group of word bearers kneel to Malal.

[Confused Word Bearer]

Regarding the Word Bearers' Host sizes, I've just started reading the third book, and when they mention there being five hosts, they say that there could be between 5,000 and 15,000 Word Bearers, which leads me to believe a Host is around 1,000 to 3,000 men.

[Brother Aiwass]

Many thanks brothers, that's been very enlightening. The good thing about the mess, is that I have room to play with the design of the army to fit my head canon. I really appreciate all your answers and the thought you've put in them.

 

Regarding the fluff section, I was talking about 30k chapters, not 40k ones but anyway they're more or less the same as you pointed out Apostle of the 30th. I also was outlining my design using the 30k legion structure as a basis.

 

Since most legions do fancy names -and the WB are not alien to that- I struggled to fill some gaps (battalion and company names, like the chapters or squads have -here, an heretic thought: what if Chapter>Host>Company? that would mean that a chapter could have more than one host but I better stop here for my own sake), mostly because I want that the army could be played in both settings, 30k & 40k (at least the basics, with some variations), so I think I'll stick to a loose 30k legion organization to set my mind on and let it rest at it.

 

Gaming wise I concur with both of you Kor Dalron & Apostle of the 30th that I should make the Diabolist a lvl 1 magician. The idea of the build I showed before was to maximize the Warp Charges being that he's going to be the only psyker on the army and with ML1 he'll struggle to make a WC3 conjuration such as the primaris one. Being that both Jarulek and Marduk summoned stuff (daemonettes and screamers come to my mind) it will imply that both of them were a little more powerful than their 30k counterparts but maybe I'm dead wrong here and they just got lucky on the warp rolls -I guess that at least Jarulek was ML2 because he used a disc of Tz which was indeed awesome. A maybe viable ML1 would mean running him with the Malefic Tome, to get that extra level on Daemonology but I think that this item would benefit more a full grown up psyker (1 god power plus 3 daemonology powers, even ML4 with 5 powers if rolled the right warlord trait. So, for now, even if I agree with you I'll stick with a heavy handed Diabolist (he'll be the leader of the army, the main DA, even if he don't get the zealot trait)... Or maybe I'll just take your advice and make the Lord the Coryphaus and the Sorc the First Acolyte (I hoped to get a LoTL DA to fill that role and have an actual apostle in the list. Whatever it would be, I have food for thought now, so many thanks :)

 

On the modeling account, yes, that was the post! Thank you!

 

I like the idea of disc actually and with the new TS kits, the disc even comes with a chained, floating book which could make a nice touch if the Tome is taken, so I definitely will consider this. The first idea I had about the palanquin was a cultist handed platform with the apostle/sorc above crozius forward, screaming litanies of hate, behind the heroquest altar book. Flanked with spikes, skulls, parchments and the like, but felt a bit unwieldy for tactical deployment (even with that I intend to do that conversion eventually), then the idea of a dread base with a big central character flanked by an icon bearer and a holy bodyguard (the three of them magnetized, so I can remove wounds (or even 4 dudes, so I can keep the wound count without using dice) and use the sorc in the conversion mentioned before when it happens) sprung to my mind. Now the disc and I'm again undecided, but we'll see how that will end. Again, many thanks.

[Backslide]

I have had a few games now with a black crusade with a hellcult and it totally works for me list in the spoilers

Black Crusade

Command:

Sorcerer: [Level 3, Force Stave, Spell familiar, scrips of erubus]

Sorcerer: [Level 3, Force Stave, Spell familiar]


Core:

Warband:
Chaos Lord: [Axe of Blind Fury. Gift of mutation, Mark of Khorne , Sigil of corruption, Jump pack]

Sorcerer: [Level 3, Force Sword, Malific tome, Spell familiar]

6x Chosen Chaos Marines: [3x melta, , Rhino Dirge caster]

6 Chaos Space Marines: [ Bolt pistols and CCW, 1x Meltagun. Rhino Dirge caster]

7 Chaos Space Marines: [ Bolters, bolt pistols and CCW, 1x Meltagun. Rhino Dirge caster]

Helbrute [Multi-melta, Power fist]

Helbrute [Multi-melta, Power fist]

5x Raptor [2 flamers, Mark of Khorne]


+ Auxiliary (30pts) +

4x Spawn (120pts)


HELLCULT

Helbrute [Multi-melta, Power fist]

20x Chaos Cultists [2x Flamer]

20x Chaos Cultists [2x Flamer]

 

as for structure, none of the current character choices actually seem to me to be a suitable dark apostle fluff wise, I just assume then guys are part of the host and the apostle is pulling the strings,

 

as for sorcerers I make them level 3's with familiars but aside from the scrips of erubus and the tome, no upgrades at all, I normally get at least 2 units of daemons out of them before their brains melt out of their ears, I think its worth it :)

[MaliGn]

Just go the whole hog and whack him on the top of a balewind vortex from fantasy, sure he'll be as tall as magnus but rule of cool and all that.

[Brother Aiwass]

I wont go that far. For a diorama would be great, but in game would meant he dies after deployment xD

[Confused Word Bearer]

I just finished reading the Omnibus and the short story that is comes with.

 

Definitely my new favorite book.

[ronin_cse]

I just finished reading the Omnibus and the short story that is comes with.

 

Definitely my new favorite book.

 

I was a little disappointed in the final book of the trilogy, felt a little too "bolter porny" to me with so many battles and such. Still good though.

[Backslide]

anyone played any games?

 

 

I have been using my daemons mostly but not far off having 90 cultists done... next game likely to be minimalist black crusade, Daemon prince, sorcerer lost and the dammed, spawn, and a warpflame host :) 

[jumai]

Regarding the fluff section, I was talking about 30k chapters, not 40k ones but anyway they're more or less the same as you pointed out Apostle of the 30th. I also was outlining my design using the 30k legion structure as a basis.

 

Since most legions do fancy names -and the WB are not alien to that- I struggled to fill some gaps (battalion and company names, like the chapters or squads have -here, an heretic thought: what if Chapter>Host>Company? that would mean that a chapter could have more than one host but I better stop here for my own sake), mostly because I want that the army could be played in both settings, 30k & 40k (at least the basics, with some variations), so I think I'll stick to a loose 30k legion organization to set my mind on and let it rest at it.

From what I recall of The First Heretic, adb *did* show individual chapters mixed and dispersed across multiple legion elements. However, he also showed deployments formed from a single chapter, and chapter membership seemed to imply more about culture/origin than anything about command structure.

 

The way I envision it, chapters are a kind of "home unit/graduating class" style organizational grouping, from which you would get your assignment and deploy out into "normal" command structure for the assignment' duration. The "normal" force organization (ie the hosts) would then be independent, mission-based, as-needed formations created or modified by requisitioning/returning troops to and from the chapters. Kind of a dispatch layer/task layer design.

[ronin_cse]

So Word Bearers legion dice are up for pre-order from Forge World today. This is so random, FW releases make no sense to me sometimes. Glad they came out though! Maybe Cataphractii shoulder pads next?

 

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/FW-Word-Bearers-Dice

[MaliGn]

With a neat typo in the description too!

 

When was gold ever a wor(l)d (sic) Bearers legion colour anyway?

[ronin_cse]

With a neat typo in the description too!

 

When was gold ever a wor(l)d (sic) Bearers legion colour anyway?

 

Lol didn't really look at the description. Ummm I imagine they just went with gold for readability? Who knows

[Lord_Starscream]

Those are expensive for just a few dice >.>

 

So no. lol

[Kol Saresk]

Those are expensive for just a few dice >.>

 

So no. lol

Well, they're collector items. GW sells the mainstream thematic dice. These are the ones you save for that super-awesome Apocalypse smackdown where you have entire Titan maniples brawling it out. Or to collect dust on your shrine to the Dark Gods.

[ronin_cse]

 

Those are expensive for just a few dice >.>

 

So no. lol

Well, they're collector items. GW sells the mainstream thematic dice. These are the ones you save for that super-awesome Apocalypse smackdown where you have entire Titan maniples brawling it out. Or to collect dust on your shrine to the Dark Gods.

 

 

Yeah, I'm a sucker for dice like this so I will likely be adding these to my collection ;)

[MaliGn]

It doesn't change the fact that gw produced thousands sons collector's dice at 20 16mm dice for 12.5GBP and forgeworld have come out with 16 16mm word Bearers dice for 16GBP. so four dice fewer for 3.5GBP more.

[ronin_cse]

It doesn't change the fact that gw produced thousands sons collector's dice at 20 16mm dice for 12.5GBP and forgeworld have come out with 16 16mm word Bearers dice for 16GBP. so four dice fewer for 3.5GBP more.

 

Yeah but these are Forge World dice so they are better! For some reason ;)...also the GW ones come with a case and these don't

[MaliGn]

 

 

It doesn't change the fact that gw produced thousands sons collector's dice at 20 16mm dice for 12.5GBP and forgeworld have come out with 16 16mm word Bearers dice for 16GBP. so four dice fewer for 3.5GBP more.

Yeah but these are Forge World dice so they are better! For some reason ;)...also the GW ones come with a case and these don't

Is it the higher quality sculpting and resin casting that makes them more expensive then? ;-)

[Zectz]

Has anyone had good experience using the Cursed Crozius? If so, how & where in your army? I'm legit considering just rocking it on foot/Rhino in a Plasma gun havoc squad when facing Imperium armies.

[Plague _Lord]

Hey guys how do you paint your worbearers red??

I just can't seem to find the right tone.

 

Any tips??

 

PL

[ronin_cse]

I use the gal vorbak and word bearer reds from forge world: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Forge-World-Airbrush-Paint

 

I base with the gal vorbak red and then zenithal highlight with word bearer red with an air brush. IMO it gets that blood red color that they describe in the fluff.

 

 

I dunno if the pictures really do the color justice though