Where would Chaos go...

[Strazhakov]

Just make a big Chaos book. Make it big and 50-60$ for all I care. Just include rules for Renegades, Legions, Lost & the Damned, Daemons etc. We fight amongst ourselves alot but its not that we are entirely different factions.

[Emperors Immortals]

Ive run out of likes for today, but ill update this thread tomorrow.

 

Kol, thats exactly what I thought had been happening. The 13thBC is the last of the "real-space" campaigns, it is to secure the staging point. Once Daemons can exist in real space, they can provide the momentum for an expanded warp storm/tide all the way past Terra.

 

My only other question is why Terra? Why not be happy with locking down Sol and starving them out?

 

Well, there just happens to be one MASSIVE psychic signal/cannon that could be used to open a massive and stable warpgate or even direct psychic power to where it is needed/wanted throughout the Galaxy.

 

If we puch through, the Emperor himself becomes our Deathstar. We could stop Tyranids, its that powerful.

 

And then Abaddon can choose exactly how much the Gods get. Humanity ascendant.

 

Maybe.

[Kol Saresk]

That's where Talon of Horus comes in, but I was leaving that out for the moment until it became more widespread. However, if you wish:

 

 

When Khayon, Lheor and Telemachon meet Abaddon on the Vengeful Spirit, one of the things he says to sway them to his side is his belief to not continue the Heresy, but for the Astartes, all of the Astartes, to shape the destiny of Humanity. That they should lead the Imperium whose worlds were bought with the blood of themselves and their brothers.

 

Horus fought only to make himself Emperor. Abaddon begins the Long War to shape the future of Humanity and to guide it free from control of fools like the High Lords of Terra who have probably never even left the Sol system.

 

That is the Long War. The claim of manifest destiny. To seize control of the Imperium, rebuild it and then forge its path through eternity.

 

Not to finish the Heresy, not to burn it to the ground. But to claim it through right of blood.

 

[Tenebris]

The above explains A LOT! Thanks Kol for sharing. I think Chaos is entering in a stage were our true personality will be revealed. I think we are moving away, step by step, from the figure of the marine with spikes and horns into becoming a faction which has a lot of character and it is unique and diverse from the loyalist astartes.

[Kol Saresk]

And on a side note, I'm about as much of a Black Legion fan as I am an Emperor's children fan. But I still appreciate the Black Legion's background being expanded.

[incinerator950]

I finally got to buying a primer and a stick of sg. So yay for finally remembering to get stuff from work after punching out.

[Loesh]

And on a side note, I'm about as much of a Black Legion fan as I am an Emperor's children fan. But I still appreciate the Black Legion's background being expanded.

 

Oh totally, don't get me wrong. Hell, despite the Slave Wars Eidolen and the Wage of Sin have allied with the Black Legion more then once and in a way I sort of see them as brothers in arms. War makes strange bedfellows and all that.

 

I just don't want them to eat EVERYTHING up. With them becoming ever more central to the Long War I see that as a serious concern, because ultimately my EC allegiance wins out and i'd hate to have to paint myself black to be relevant to current lore.

[Kol Saresk]

See that's the thing, they aren't the Ultramarines in that they are the template everyone else is built off of. When it comes to the Berzerkers and the Noise Marines and such, they aren't the best each cult/Legion has to offer. But since they've recruited the best Plague Sorcerers and Berzerker-Surgeons that are willing to join the Black Legion, their Nails and such are just as good as what the DE, EC and WE can pump out. They aren't the "average Legion", they're the Jack of All Trades. Not anyone can just paint the black and be a member. Not only do you have to be willing to join, but you also have to be someone Abaddon wants.

[Wade Garrett]

"Some Legions warbands eschew the teachings of the great Warmaster in favor of their own gene sires ways of war, but these aberrants are few in number, and grow fewer each year as more of their members abandon them to take the Black. In truth, all Chaos Marines and the gods acknowledge Abaddon as their spiritual liege, and seek ever to earn his favor."

 

Bleeeccchhh!

[incinerator950]

See that's the thing, they aren't the Ultramarines in that they are the template everyone else is built off of. When it comes to the Berzerkers and the Noise Marines and such, they aren't the best each cult/Legion has to offer. But since they've recruited the best Plague Sorcerers and Berzerker-Surgeons that are willing to join the Black Legion, their Nails and such are just as good as what the DE, EC and WE can pump out. They aren't the "average Legion", they're the Jack of All Trades. Not anyone can just paint the black and be a member. Not only do you have to be willing to join, but you also have to be someone Abaddon wants.

I find that hard to believe, and amusing you have that high of a notion, after 5th and Sixth. It even says in the BL supplement (which I just remembered you don't have) Abbadon will allow anyone to join so long as they swear fealty to him. He doesn't have high recruiting standards outside of not betraying him and answering his calls to war. Otherwise he wouldn't have an army comp ten times that of the Word Bearers by the 13th Crusade, a Chaos Legion force which is obviously more stringent in recruiting and replacing its losses.

 

The reason why they're attributed to being spikey smurfs is being a centerpiece army for chaos more than it has been ever since they stripped Legion and veteran traits from 3.5, as well as the Mccneilism lovin they're getting from the Supplement and ADB. They are jack-of-all-trades. They have everything specialized descending from the other Legions barring the handful of oddballs left to give out, and that's one of the defining weaknesses that glare out from 3.5 to the 4th codex.

 

Edit: I wish I had a 2nd edition codex to see how much of the older fluff has been revisited.

[Goreshed]

In the simplest terms...Yes Black Legion in GW's eyes are the same as Ultrasmurfs. Why you ask? Simple. They are the middle ground for their respective sides. Ultrasmurfs because they emulate what a Space Marine should be. Black Legion for the fact that they are the middle ground of Chaos Marines.

 

Now fluff wise?

 

Ultrasmurfs have the same attitude (in general), have the same training, get the same weapons, fight the same way, yada yada boring. They fight and die for the False Emperor, happy to sacrifice themselves for some greater ideals of Humanity and the Emperor.

 

Black Legion are the armoured honey badgers of spiky bits. They don't care who you are so long as you fight for Abadon and do what you are told. In Execution Hour (I think...a old short story or in one of the old codex's) there is a moment in Planet Killer where good old Abby is going through the ship and its stated that he doesn't care who fights for him so long as they die for him and to further his goals. That has nothing to do with anything greater other then the fuel Abby's plans. That's it. There is no signing bonus, no vacation time, no sick leave, fight or die. Work with us or we kill you if you aren't smart enough to leave then and there.

[Emperors Immortals]

That's where Talon of Horus comes in, but I was leaving that out for the moment until it became more widespread. However, if you wish:

 

 

When Khayon, Lheor and Telemachon meet Abaddon on the Vengeful Spirit, one of the things he says to sway them to his side is his belief to not continue the Heresy, but for the Astartes, all of the Astartes, to shape the destiny of Humanity. That they should lead the Imperium whose worlds were bought with the blood of themselves and their brothers.

 

Horus fought only to make himself Emperor. Abaddon begins the Long War to shape the future of Humanity and to guide it free from control of fools like the High Lords of Terra who have probably never even left the Sol system.

 

That is the Long War. The claim of manifest destiny. To seize control of the Imperium, rebuild it and then forge its path through eternity.

 

Not to finish the Heresy, not to burn it to the ground. But to claim it through right of blood.

 

 

GAAAH!!! Ive read most of your posts since you started here Kol and this is the best thing ive read yet!!!! Well, im going to have to double efforts to acquire said book. 

 

Also, replace my tinfoil hat for the more reliable Velotape and mutter about my thoughts being stolen.

[Kol Saresk]

 

See that's the thing, they aren't the Ultramarines in that they are the template everyone else is built off of. When it comes to the Berzerkers and the Noise Marines and such, they aren't the best each cult/Legion has to offer. But since they've recruited the best Plague Sorcerers and Berzerker-Surgeons that are willing to join the Black Legion, their Nails and such are just as good as what the DE, EC and WE can pump out. They aren't the "average Legion", they're the Jack of All Trades. Not anyone can just paint the black and be a member. Not only do you have to be willing to join, but you also have to be someone Abaddon wants.

I find that hard to believe, and amusing you have that high of a notion, after 5th and Sixth. It even says in the BL supplement (which I just remembered you don't have) Abbadon will allow anyone to join so long as they swear fealty to him. He doesn't have high recruiting standards outside of not betraying him and answering his calls to war. Otherwise he wouldn't have an army comp ten times that of the Word Bearers by the 13th Crusade, a Chaos Legion force which is obviously more stringent in recruiting and replacing its losses.

 

The reason why they're attributed to being spikey smurfs is being a centerpiece army for chaos more than it has been ever since they stripped Legion and veteran traits from 3.5, as well as the Mccneilism lovin they're getting from the Supplement and ADB. They are jack-of-all-trades. They have everything specialized descending from the other Legions barring the handful of oddballs left to give out, and that's one of the defining weaknesses that glare out from 3.5 to the 4th codex.

 

Edit: I wish I had a 2nd edition codex to see how much of the older fluff has been revisited.

 

 

*ahem*

 

6th Edition Chaos Space Marine Codex, Page 44

 

 

Those who wish to fully dedicate themselves to Khorne usually join the World Eaters to undergo the complex psycho-surgery they employ. Once the procedure is complete, they are one with their angry god, feeling nothing but the desire to kill, maim and burn. After the World Eaters Legion disbanded during the fighting on Skalathrax, most Berzerkers formed separate warbands, and many bastardised practices of lobotomosiation spread to other Chaos Space Marine forces with them. Abaddon, in particular, has recruited a number of highly-skilled Berzerker-surgeons to his cause, and only the Black Legion is even close to the World Eaters in their perfection of this barbaric practice.

Weird. It's almost as if 6th Edition is telling us that Abaddon didn't just recruit any Berzerker-surgeon willing to join the Black Legion, but only those who could produce high quality Nails. Weird.

 

6th Edition Chaos Space Marines Codex, page 46

 

 

Those who truly wish to join this most foetid of cadres must first swear loyalty to the Primarch Mortarion. Only then will Nurgle bestow upon them the corrupting ague that created the Plague Marines. Outside of the Death Guard, a favoured few Sorcerers of Nurgle know the secrets of the Plague Marines, and Abaddon of the Black Legion has won many of these spellcasters to his cause. In return for fealty and long service, these blight-mages will bestow their pestilent gifts in the Warmaster's name.

 

Again, there's that mention of him getting the ones he wants to join his Legion. Weird. Very, very weird.

And then of course, there's Soul Hunter where the Exalted wants to join the Black Legion. But does he get to? Nope. Why? Because first he must convince to Talos to join the Black Legion because Abaddon wants Talos. What happens when Talos refuses to join? The Exalted is also refused. And Ruven, who failed to convert Talos, is kicked out of the Black Legion and handed over to the Red Corsairs to repay an old debt.

 

And to add to it, Soul Hunter, Blood Reaver, and the 6th Edition Codex were all printed during the 5th and 6th Edition. Very peculiar how it all could give someone the idea that anyone can join the Black Legion, but only if Abaddon allows. Almost like saying anyone can get a job, but only if someone else hires them. Strange. Just so so so strange. Oh well, guess I read it all wrong.

[Loesh]

Maybe you did read it completely wrong and that's what the Black Legion supplements take, which could be the correct one. That's the thing with GW lore, it's up to interpretation.

 

Either way however, it does absolutely nothing to dispel my growing concern that BL will just eat up CSM lore. My concern isn't that they are the Ultramarines, I know they aren't and I know why they aren't, my concern is they are harming Chaos Lore in the same way Wardian Ultramarines hurt Loyalist lore, which given their differences might make them more inclined to do so.

[Kol Saresk]

 it's up to interpretation.

And therein lies the key as it says no one can be wrong if that be the case. Period. No ifs, no ands, no buts. You might see the Black Legion starting to eat the lore, I see a subfaction that has been the face of Chaos Space Marines since second edition finally getting some decent fluff expansion. And the list goes on. Neither one of us are right or wrong, and thus I can say that anyone can wear the black so long as Abaddon permits it, and I am not wrong. I don't even conflict with Incinerator's statement. We are both saying anyone can wear the black. I've just read more information that implies that anyone can wear the black, but only if Abaddon allows and only as long as Abaddon allows it and that he will seek out certain individuals from time to time for certain purposes and will only recruit the best of those who can fulfill that purpose.

 

The EC are still the EC. The Black Legion is the Black Legion. They are separate and apart. The difference is that the Black Legion is finally being explored while the EC only have spare background in 40K, excluding the Heresy. And so it might look like they're eating it up, but that may or may not be the case. Either way, it is free for you to interpret the background however you desire, whether for good or for ill.

[Loesh]

The thing is, if the black legion starts rapidly absorbing all the elements of the other legions in it's current form then interpretation doesn't matter, the other legions are still going to either be starved of screen time or shown as a joke. The reason the Ultramarines were so dire was because, even though you could try and dismiss them, they were omnipresent and the things being claimed about them were oppressive and actively demeaning to the other legions.

 

At a point someones got to put their foot down because interpretation can't hold up to a constant barrage of the contrary.

[Kol Saresk]

The Black Legion has always had elements of the other Legions. That's why in 3.5 it was the "Jack of All Trades" Legion that allowed everyone access to mixed-Cult armies. It is only recently that its begun to truly form its own identity, which will individualize it and make it distinct from the other Legions.

[Marshal Rohr]

So A DB has embraced the Ubermensch philosophy for the Black Legion then?

[Loesh]

The Black Legion has always had elements of the other Legions. That's why in 3.5 it was the "Jack of All Trades" Legion that allowed everyone access to mixed-Cult armies. It is only recently that its begun to truly form its own identity, which will individualize it and make it distinct from the other Legions.

 

Individualizes it or makes it flat out better?

 

That's really the question.

[Kol Saresk]

So A DB has embraced the Ubermensch philosophy for the Black Legion then?

If you mean the original Nietzsche Übermensch theory, then yes.

 

 

 

The Black Legion has always had elements of the other Legions. That's why in 3.5 it was the "Jack of All Trades" Legion that allowed everyone access to mixed-Cult armies. It is only recently that its begun to truly form its own identity, which will individualize it and make it distinct from the other Legions.

Individualizes it or makes it flat out better?

 

That's really the question.

You lost me. How does the Black Legion gaining a personality, make it better than the other Legions?

[Loesh]

 

So A DB has embraced the Ubermensch philosophy for the Black Legion then?

If you mean the original Nietzsche Übermensch theory, then yes.

 

 

The Black Legion has always had elements of the other Legions. That's why in 3.5 it was the "Jack of All Trades" Legion that allowed everyone access to mixed-Cult armies. It is only recently that its begun to truly form its own identity, which will individualize it and make it distinct from the other Legions.

Individualizes it or makes it flat out better?

 

That's really the question.

You lost me. How does the Black Legion gaining a personality, make it better than the other Legions?

 

 

Because now it has ten times the size of everyone else, access to everything everyone else does, and now is not merely leading Chaos(Which I had problems with to begin with.) but is now -critical- to it's existence in the Long War.

 

I don't mind the Black Legion having a personality, I LIKE Abaddons whole manifest destiny thing, but not at the expense of Chaos as a whole.

[the jeske]

 

 

The EC are still the EC. The Black Legion is the Black Legion. They are separate and apart. The difference is that the Black Legion is finally being explored while the EC only have spare background in 40K, excluding the Heresy. And so it might look like they're eating it up, but that may or may not be the case. Either way, it is free for you to interpret the background however you desire, whether for good or for ill.

 

Well there is always the danger of them becoming ultramarines with spikes. I always hated the ultras, but they did make sense as the best orgenisers, one of the best recruiters, paragons of ze codex. when they suddenly started having better fleet then fleet based chapters , better bikers then WS , better jump troopers then BA and RG combined, it kind of a sucked.

 

BL combining stuff is nice and make sense. Them having cabals and people working from everywhere is their schtick. But when they suddenly out zerker the WE and out NM the NM and their sorc suddenly are able to cast the rubric it kind of removes the sense of having other legions, and people playing them already had 10 suck years.

[Kol Saresk]

@Loesh: Except that's all been there. The Black legion has always had access to the Cult Units since 3rd Edition, which was years ago. Out of all of that, the manifest destiny is the only thing that's new.

[Loesh]

@Loesh: Except that's all been there. The Black legion has always had access to the Cult Units since 3rd Edition, which was years ago. Out of all of that, the manifest destiny is the only thing that's new.

 

Yeah, but they have never quite been pushed this hard. It's not merely Cult Units, they simply have everything every other legion has. Where other legions fight over worlds, the Black Legion simply makes them die, they have this whole harbingers of the apocalypse stick that...to an extent...makes one wonder why ALL the other legions don't just join them if they are that good.

 

I understand the need to move away from Failbaddon, but Abby Sue isn't the answer either.

[Marshal Rohr]

Unlike normal marines, the Black Legion is inclusive. So it makes sense they get things from all the legions.