GhostMalone Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 And if we recall the cabal stated that if Horus won he would hate himself and his actions and then burn down the imperium in a decade and make humanity extinct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 And if we recall the cabal stated that if Horus won he would hate himself and his actions and then burn down the imperium in a decade and make humanity extinct Yes, but that would require us to believe that the Cabal: 1. Actually knows what it's doing (They claim to know the outcome of the Heresy, but they miss little things like the Black Cube on Nurth, they can't precog Night Haunter at all, and there are plenty of seers who think their predictions are bunk, i.e. Eldrad) 2. That the Cabal isn't lying its collective heinie off about what it's predictions have actually shown. (If Slau Da told me space was black, I'd order someone to poke their head out the airlock and check.) And the second option requires us to trust the words of Chaos daemons. Lorgar, you're the High Priest of the Primordial Truth, what say you? But no, there was a wide gulf between hearing them and heeding them. Gods lied, just like men. Gods deceived and clashed and sought to advance their own dominion over their rivals. Lorgar trusted none of their prophecies. I mean, if we've reached the point that THE CABAL is our go to source for how Black Draigo Abaddon is the shiniest special snowflake with neat plans and great ideas to ever twinkle his way across the galaxy, well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSOBeD1GC_Y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 You mean I shouldn't believe that Horus was a pawn of the Chaos Gods? And that i should instead trust the Primarch who says we should all worship the lying gods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 You mean I shouldn't believe that Horus was a pawn of the Chaos Gods? And that i should instead trust the Primarch who says we should all worship the lying gods? It's as credible as the other option. That's half the fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Except the other option, which is all the fluff that predates Talon of Horus, is that Horus was a pawn of the Chaos Gods who at the last minute was abandoned to be completely destroyed by the mortally wounded Emperor......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 At least if you believe the Cabal, yeah. Eldrad doesn't seem to buy it, like most things it's left ambiguous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I'm not talking about the Cabal. I'm talking about fluff that predates Legion, fluff that predates Horus Rising, fluff that predates even the 3.5 Codex published and printed in 2002. The oldest fluff in the background says that when Horus struck down the Emperor, the Emperor attacked Horus. The Gods' power deserted Horus and in that moment, he realized he had been a pawn and was horrified at the atrocities he had committed and then begged for the Emperor to kill him. This is seriously old fluff. So either way we go, with or without the Cabal, with or without the Talon of Horus, the Gods led Horus to his fight with the Emperor. And the moment he most could have used their power, they deserted him, the way one would desert a queen just to draw a king into checkmate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Eldrad can't see everything Even the emperor said is sight was clouded and things that should be clear are harder to grasp. You look at horus's actions on the bridge of the vengeful spirit right before his destruction and your telling me a man who burnt humanity's one chance at dominance destroyed his brothers and burnt the imperium to the ground wouldn't then burn everything left standing for his repentence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Loesh, what was your introduction to the background? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 What you're really seeing is a post facto bit of foreshadowing. The Heresy series will probably end with the Gods abandoning Horus, and it will have been the plan all along. I think there idea was never to kill the Emperor, but to contain him. If that is the case, the soul of George Kennan is somewhere in the warp berating Tzeentchian Magos for questioning his theories. Edit: it will have been the plan all along, because :cuss it, we can't have anyone in those :cuss universe make decisions because the aspire to make the right call, and will have really just been trying to be a bastard the whole time. Edit again: real life is sad because in any conflict both sides are trying to do the right thing as they perceive the world. 40K has moments like this (Lorgar v Guilliman) but overall the authors never get their mind out of the one side must be evil and it's cooler if both sides are actually evil. Luckily A DB seems to be taking Abaddon down the former path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 What you're really seeing is a post facto bit of foreshadowing. The Heresy series will probably end with the Gods abandoning Horus, and it will have been the plan all along. I think there idea was never to kill the Emperor, but to contain him. If that is the case, the soul of George Kennan is somewhere in the warp berating Tzeentchian Magos for questioning his theories. Edit: it will have been the plan all along, because it, we can't have anyone in those universe make decisions because the aspire to make the right call, and will have really just been trying to be a bastard the whole time. Edit again: real life is sad because in any conflict both sides are trying to do the right thing as they perceive the world. 40K has moments like this (Lorgar v Guilliman) but overall the authors never get their mind out of the one side must be evil and it's cooler if both sides are actually evil. Luckily A DB seems to be taking Abaddon down the former path. Going off what you've said, it means that : the Gods abandoning Horus at the last instant was because they knew had he stuck the killing blow and Big Daddy E actually bit the dust *du-du-dun dun dun* he would've (given time or through the work of deifying him by Lorgar) been a warp entity that could rival them in power and not be hindered by the shackles that is his living corpse? That or he would've proved the perpetual theory right and just regenerated and gone on an even bigger crusade.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Well let's put it this way. The Astronomicon is not the Emperor, but is rather a creation of his will. That creation by itself is powerful enough to pierce the Eye and actively destroy any daemons that touch it. That and one of the Avatars of the Astronomicon say that the Emperor is slowly dying. So yes, the Emperor was something to be feared by the warp. But using Horus as a one shot RPG, they no longer have to worry about Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I know back when I were a youngin' the BL had access to and pratonage of many Legion cult troops, even when 2nd ed let you pick and mix. So pretty much since the beginning of Chaos then. Which makes sense. Abaddon is supposed to be the "Antichrist" so its only fitting that his Legion be the "Harbingers of the Apocalypse". After all, these are the guys who began the Long War. These are the guys the Black Crusades were named after. Everyone else might have their own vision of the Long War, but these are the guys who have a purpose beyond what their fathers wanted. A purpose that is unique and wholly theirs. Oh and Jeske, the Rubric cannot be duplicated. Pure and simple. Khayon does not create Rubricae. He merely controls them. He just happens to have ~100 of the buggers around to do his bidding. he summons automaton back when they go puff. So while he can not [well not without a huge effort and a powerful ritual] cast the spell on new dudes he can summon the dead 1ksons back. Now if he can summon automatons not just from the groups runing around him is to be seen. The problem with purpose and primarchs/marines is what emps wanted from the human race and it ain't pretty considering the end goal [and makes AL "for the emperor" make at least a bit of sense]. There was no place for the human race as it is shown in 30/40k in emps plan. what need would there be for someone like Haunter or Morti in the post warp calming world? It is the same problem any country has with its army[or any structure that can use violance], what to do with them when they aren't needed anymore. With soldiers/militia/etc you can hope that they will drink themself to death after getting a low pansion as fast as possible, but you can not hope for that with near immortal 30k marines. So I kind of a do get abadon , purpose in life [specialy an near immortal one] is important. And he is different/special, because he avoided both the cult yoke and being the old breed type of marine he was able to think for himself. It may not be good for the imperium as an organisation, but it is a lot more then what most marines are in w40k are able to do. In a way it is kind of a funny, how the 'heresy' would have happened even if there was no erebus/lets go chaos movment for some legions. As for the astronomicon, the way I see how chaos works[aka emotions feed the warp beings], what it and the throne does is to chain the emperor to this plain and focus his ability [which is limited here. how many demons/warp beings have existed outside of the eye for 10k+ years while fully manifested?]. If the astronomicon went silent we would get another gork/mork for a short time. Then the fuel for emps "warp god form" would go away, unless he would be able to possessed/mark humans as other warp gods do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Nowhere has Khayon been seen resummoning the souls of the Rubricae into new suits of armor. In fact, as one Rubricae dies right in front of him, he comments how the soul disappears into nonexistence. Unless you've read something I haven't read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I wish Chaos would make the next three hours go by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Well let's put it this way. The Astronomicon is not the Emperor, but is rather a creation of his will. That creation by itself is powerful enough to pierce the Eye and actively destroy any daemons that touch it. That and one of the Avatars of the Astronomicon say that the Emperor is slowly dying. So yes, the Emperor was something to be feared by the warp. But using Horus as a one shot RPG, they no longer have to worry about Him. I havent read anything past the first HH book, and ive only read the NightLords trilogy so I have to ask where does the above come from? I swear im starting to read the series...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Talon of Horus. Hence the spoilers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Loesh, what was your introduction to the background? Me? Warhammer Age of Reckoning got me into 40k by association so i'm not -terribly- old with the series, so yeah, I wouldn't know something from that far back. What i'm saying is casual observation admittedly, through my lens I see a lot of similarities between how the Black Legion are being handled and how the Ultramarines are, it's still bad...but way, way more nuanced. In no way would I say ADB and the Black Legion supplement are nearly as bad as Ward, I can see them from where i'm standing though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Black Legion is not getting the ultrasmurf treatment. Even before the Heresy the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus were "the best" legion. Point. No arguing here. What Black Legions is getting is simply an expansion of its background built upon well known bases. They were since days old THE chaos legion with a goal. Nowadays we are simply learning more about this goal and what ramifications it has for the legion. The Ultramarines on the other hand are: - popular - well covered in fluff - expanded with countless characters and rules If there is a chaos legion that has the traits above is probably the Word Bearers. Being perhaps the most popular chaos legion that the people play and the most covered so far in terms of fluff. They not only integrate seamlessly the cult troops but also chaos daemons, renegade guard and cultists. If there is an "all encompassing" legion, a proper legion and a well covered one in fluff is the Word Bearers, ironically the "ultrasmurfs" of chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 No I get that, Emperors Children are mostly pleasure raiders where the Black Legions the one focused on ending the Imperium, I get that and i'm fine with it. I take umbrage with the Black Legion being responsible for EVERYTHING though. The main reason it's not as bad is the Emperors Children still do cool things on their own, Lucius was still in the Vanguard of the 13th Black Crusade, and I like the whole 'Secret Agent' thing Eidolen has going on with the Wage of Sin. My cool guys can still be cool guys, for the moment i'm semi-content. I just don't want them to get the point where my dudes stop being cool and only the Black Legion gets to be cool, yeah? At the same time I might just be more content because an Emperors Children warband stuck it to Devram Korda :p I could see how the other mono-legions might be less amused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 ... the Emperor's Children worship the god of "cool" they are cool by the very definition... But the Black Legion will one day "do everything" for of all the legions the Black Legion was created with this goal in mind. Not to diminish the contribution of the other legions but the Black Legion has this manifest destiny. Consider it a banner of black under which all other legions gather. It was not Fulgrim that launched thirteen crusades and never was his legion at the forefront, not even on Terra. I think that the "cult" legions are by now so mired down in their own excess, worship and the Great Game that what they contribute is seldom of import. Effectively only the World Eaters managed a cohesive raid on the Imperium in M41 (Armageddon). Are they because of this "second class citizens"? Maybe yes and maybe no, but those of them who actually have a goal beyond their selfish needs and desires usually either take the black or fight under a black banner. Might makes right in the Eye, in M41 the Black Legion alone has the might to kick butt and take names... Even the Word Bearers had to cede to grant and audience with Lorgar when the Black Legion fleet appeared above Sicarus... If you read the BL supplement you will actually see that Abaddon is not only the warmaster of the Black Legion but also a champion of the other traitor legions and daemon primarchs, either directly or indirectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Perhaps, and that in itself I don't have much problem with...though i'd argue the Mono-legions do wreck the Imperiums face all the time, it's just they don't get a HUGE amount of expansion on what happened. Like I said, i'm content for the moment, I just can -see- the moment where things might turn sour. I don't think Abaddon is Calgar quite yet, but I see the trajectory for it and why people would be worried about black becoming the new blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 To return the topic back on track. Consider the following. Chaos is the only thing that the Tyranid menace sees as an enemy predator and the Necron see it as their ultimate adversary to annihilate. It is ironic that Chaos is perhaps the only thing that can help humanity to survive the ordeal that are the End Times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 To return the topic back on track. Consider the following. Chaos is the only thing that the Tyranid menace sees as an enemy predator and the Necron see it as their ultimate adversary to annihilate. It is ironic that Chaos is perhaps the only thing that can help humanity to survive the ordeal that are the End Times. Essentially, the Maelstorm and the Eye of Terror are pretty much immune to Tyranids, so the closest thing to a happy ending(And that's a stretch.) is fleeing into the warp. If the plot ever advanced, Abbadon usurping the Imperium might be humanities only hope, not that there's much hope in 40k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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