Where would Chaos go...

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Loesh, what was your introduction to the background?

 

Me? Warhammer Age of Reckoning got me into 40k by association so i'm not -terribly- old with the series, so yeah, I wouldn't know something from that far back.

 

What i'm saying is casual observation admittedly, through my lens I see a lot of similarities between how the Black Legion are being handled and how the Ultramarines are, it's still bad...but way, way more nuanced. In no way would I say ADB and the Black Legion supplement are nearly as bad as Ward, I can see them from where i'm standing though.

Okay. I was just curious because you were focusing quite a bit on Eldrad vs the Cabal and that was a rather recent development. Didn't mean to attack you or anything by it, so please don't take it that way.

 

Okay, that kind of puts a bit in perspective. I think one thing I'd disagree with Tenebris is that the goal of the Black Legion is to consume the others. Reason being is that while Abaddon is the one who does the poking and prodding to get the main Crusades started, he never put that much effort into making everyone wear the black.

 

Like I quoted Soul Hunter, the only way the Exalted was going to get the black was if Talos converted to the Black legion. But the one didn't so the one who wanted it didn't get it.

 

However, I do believe that Abaddon is attempting to create a more unified response of the various Traitors and Renegades. Looking back at how some of the Crusades had some serious losses an yet each time, the next Crusade was worse than the last, I don't think it was just "there are more Renegades". I think a lot of it was Abaddon was able to persuade more and more Traitors and Renegades to follow the Crusade each time. And of course as both groups multiplied through turning traitor and recruitment, this meant that not only were there more Astartes to persuade, but he was also able to persuade more of those who previously may not have joined in. So I don't think he wants everyone to join the Black Legion, but I think he does want everyone to follow its lead in tearing down the Imperium, rebuilding it and then ruling it as he believes the Astartes are meant to.

[Loesh]

Which I didn't mind at all, and sorry if it came off as such. My main worry is that it -does- get to the point where 'everyone should join the black legion' is a thing, but yes, for the moment it's not.

 

Eidolen and Luicus are some of my favorite characters and they work(Especially the former.) extensively with the Black Legion, but they still self identify at Emperors Children with all the good and bad that brings.

[Kol Saresk]

Which I didn't mind at all, and sorry if it came off as such. My main worry is that it -does- get to the point where 'everyone should join the black legion' is a thing, but yes, for the moment it's not.

 

Eidolen and Luicus are some of my favorite characters and they work(Especially the former.) extensively with the Black Legion, but they still self identify at Emperors Children with all the good and bad that brings.

And that's why I disagree a bit with Tenebris. It seems the intent is to encourage a rallying to the banner, much as Eidolon and Lucius are already doing, but beyond those who actually join the Black, there doesn't seem to be an overwhelming "You must wear Black". If anything, I always thought the color black was supposed to be representative of Abaddon saying "These are my Justaerin".

[Loesh]

And from what i'v read of the older fluff, I agree.

 

AT THE SAME TIME however, I see where Wade is coming from, and the fact the Crimson Slaughter got a supplement before the other eight other legions ruffled my jimmmies a bit as well. Having already been burned by Ward(Who is thankfully out of the company now.) we can kind of see where GW is hammering in the point the other legions are a bit ragtag, the worry is it goes from ragtag to impotent.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, the thing is that since 3.5, GW has been trying to push the Renegades. The Legion Rules were not meant to be the only armies played out of the Codex. You can tell by the all the wording that says Khorne Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Plague Marines and Thousand Sons Rubricae can be found in places other than the four Cult Legions(and I don't mean the Black Legion, I mean where it says they can be found in Renegades too), not to mention the "Hey, these are some of the Renegades participating in the 13th Black Crusade and here is a quick paint scheme to go with each one." So then when that failed utterly because all everyone did was play one of the Legion lists, I think GW tried to shift gears by instead throwing the Renegades into our faces with 4th Edition basically going "The Legions are DEAD! Make a Warband Already!" And then we got 6th Edition which is going "Get it through your thick skulls already! Play the Renegades dangnabbit!" That's why our two supplements are the "Renegades Legion" and the "New Kids on the Block", not one of the other eight Legions, like the Night Lords and the Word Bearers. And I think that as time goes on and new supplements emerge, they will have Renegades on the cover, not other Legions. Not because the Legions are impotent, but because GW wants to see something other than the same nine armies from the one faction.

Doesn't mean I agree with it, just that I think I see why they're doing it that way.

[incinerator950]

Well, regardless if you believe Wade was personally responsible or just the face of writing GW's decisions is subject, but GW has been the deciding factor in putting us on a backburner.

 

Even now, they're adamant about there being no Legions similar to the Heresy. The Black Legion aren't a true Legion in that fashion either. The coining term may be Chaos Legions, but those such as the Word Bearers, Black Legion, follow different trends and powers while maintaining a higher coherency, power and safety . Even the Dark Angels and their successors answer to a Legion call for their hunt for the Fallen, while the Wolves and Templars completely ignore standardized Imperial codex limitations snd guidelines.

 

That is different than Chapters and Warbands, something that needs to evolve for all of us. Regardless if we are getting more Renegades, the majority of players are still Legionaires or some spinoff.

 

It would also help if they'd make our options more robust, or if they're going to stick us in a one trick pony, make us better at it.

 

@Kol: I agree with you, but they're doing it really sloppy. Not to mention there are less Renegades to present that now that the majority were grandfathered in from 4th. Which is a shame, I love Mercenaries, Pirates, and Cults more than most people.

[Loesh]

I can see that, I don't mind new renegades terribly much.

 

It's just what drew me to the Emperors Children at first was how extremely badass and horrifying they were both post and pre shattering. They were at the forefront of the Istaavan massacre, they are the reason why 10,000 years later Terra is scared as :cuss of Space Marines, they started the legion wars and for awhile were taking on all eight other legions at once.

 

Eidolen has been behind thousands of planetary raids in the last 10,000 years and the Inquisition still can't confirm he's a thing that exists, he's a boogyman, a ghost. Lucius fought some of the best swordsmen in the galaxy and won, even when he loses he wins and come the 13th Crusade he was the first one in there wrecking :cuss. Even Warbands that are only approaching company strength still depopulate worlds and they are easily the most successful raiders the traitor legions have.

 

They were so offended by the Children of Torment and Devram Korda that they knocked him out of his rule over Sarora.

 

THAT is what the Emperors Children are to me, a bunch of badasses who despite how outnumbered they are manage to make an absolute mess of :cussing everything they come across. Yeah they lost to Khârn and Ezekyle during the Slave Wars, but you can't say they didn't make it hard. I don't mind them pushing the Renegades, I embrace it to an extent even...the more the merrier after all. What ticked me off about Ward wasn't him pushing the Ultramarines, it was pushing the Ultramarines at the expense of how badass everyone else was.

 

That's what I worry about.

[Kol Saresk]

I can see that, I don't mind new renegades terribly much.

It's just what drew me to the Emperors Children at first was how extremely badass and horrifying they were both post and pre shattering. They were at the forefront of the Istaavan massacre, they are the reason why 10,000 years later Terra is scared as of Space Marines, they started the legion wars and for awhile were taking on all eight other legions at once.

Eidolen has been behind thousands of planetary raids in the last 10,000 years and the Inquisition still can't confirm he's a thing that exists, he's a boogyman, a ghost. Lucius fought some of the best swordsmen in the galaxy and won, even when he loses he wins and come the 13th Crusade he was the first one in there wrecking . Even Warbands that are only approaching company strength still depopulate worlds and they are easily the most successful raiders the traitor legions have.

They were so offended by the Children of Torment and Devram Korda that they knocked him out of his rule over Sarora.

THAT is what the Emperors Children are to me, a bunch of badasses who despite how outnumbered they are manage to make an absolute mess of :cussing everything they come across. Yeah they lost to Khârn and Ezekyle during the Slave Wars, but you can't say they didn't make it hard. I don't mind them pushing the Renegades, I embrace it to an extent even...the more the merrier after all. What ticked me off about Ward wasn't him pushing the Ultramarines, it was pushing the Ultramarines at the expense of how badass everyone else was.

That's what I worry about.

I can understand that. Like the Crimson Slaughter. They aren't overly religious. They have one Chaplain who turned and became their Dark Apostle. And the only reason they have Possessed is because they are literally haunted by those they killed and every now and then, those ghosts come out to play. But to call them Word Bearers or Word Bearers substitutes just because they happen to have rules that one would have for a different Legion even if those rules are for completely different fluff reasons would be..... Honestly I'm not sure what word I would use to describe something that childish. Now if we turned around and the Crimson Slaughter were this group of holy crusaders who followed their Dark Demagogues everywhere and were masters of summoning super powerful Possessed..... I could definitely understand the frustration.

So at the moment, I don't think we have to starting putting on tinfoil hats and waiting for the sky to fall, but I think we should put on the big boy pants and realize that while we may love the Legions, GW's focus is past the Legions.

[Loesh]

Not being the focus I understand and I can live with that..because it's not like the CS is the focus either, the backgrounds too big to focus on any one group.

 

That's not to say I wouldn't like an Emperors Children supplement one of these days.

[incinerator950]

Well believe it or not, I originally disliked making a legion Warband in 3.5 when I started. I loved mercenaries and the concept of having no gods and masters and fighting battles for profit and plunder. I started off with the Night Lord Hero and nearly went with them, despite not having an idea of what I wanted after the Thousand Sons and Tyranids dragged my eyes across the screen.

 

It wasn't until I tried dedicating to Nurgle when I focused on making a Non-Legion PM army, monogod and everything. I still prefer 3.5 having less limitations on cult choices. In fact, it was 4th that tore me up when they made Plague Sorcerers the main source of PMs, stimming from the Death Guard's numerous Plague Fleets or the Black Legion's acquired stock. What many people thought was an attempt to break the restrictions 3.5 impossed, I found it just as limiting.

 

It's actually hilarious, I like the concept of Warbands, but I despise much of the execution presented in the core rules. Even in 3.5 you had scattered forces, dissent, and backstabbing. GW took it and instead of honing the knife, they oversharpened it to the point of dulling. Even the name Warband, jt sounds even more generic than Chapter.

 

Sometime soon I'd like to finally reforge my concepts and get to making these models setup. Thanks to work I've finally narrowed it down to two choices, Beasts of Annihilation for a root change, or Word Bearers for a Warband still loyal to an unholy cause and a Primarch who isn't dead. Renegades becoming a showcase doesn't bother me, but GW needs to get off the Loyalist Legion Chapter drive if they want to keep sticking us with this. They may focus one thing, I don't have to pay them.

[Kol Saresk]

Not being the focus I understand and I can live with that..because it's not like the CS is the focus either, the backgrounds too big to focus on any one group.

 

That's not to say I wouldn't like an Emperors Children supplement one of these days.

Or at least a revamped Index Chaotica. I mean heck, the Possessed and the Terminus Est both got one, how hard could it be for the last eight Legions to get one. right?

 

EDIT: While I am at it Loesh, where can I find Wage of Sin? Is it an audio?

[Loesh]

 

Not being the focus I understand and I can live with that..because it's not like the CS is the focus either, the backgrounds too big to focus on any one group.

 

That's not to say I wouldn't like an Emperors Children supplement one of these days.

Or at least a revamped Index Chaotica. I mean heck, the Possessed and the Terminus Est both got one, how hard could it be for the last eight Legions to get one. right?

 

EDIT: While I am at it Loesh, where can I find Wage of Sin? Is it an audio?

 

 

Wage of Sin is the codifier for Eidolens flagship in the Battlefleet Gothic Powers of Chaos if you can get ahold of the text, it has some neat tidbits of information. He participated in most of Abaddons Black Crusades and he maintains a sizable retinue of Noise Marines. It's implied to be responsable for the razing of the pleasure world Beilisimar in the Belis Corona sector.

[Wade Garrett]

Even before the Heresy the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus were "the best" legion. Point. No arguing here.

 

I, too, enjoy stating my opinion as fact.

 

Ultramarines: most worlds added to the Imperium

 

Emperor's Children: granted right to wear the Palatine Aquila for their accomplishments

 

Imperial Fists:

Awarded most battle honors by the Emperor, named his praetorians.

 

Luna Wolves:

Repeatedly noted to have been great at conquering, not so great at administrating or garrisoning, with Horus often fobbing those jobs off on the Ultramarines, Fists, and Iron Warriors

 

The Ultramarines on the other hand are:

- popular

- well covered in fluff

- expanded with countless characters and rules

If there is a chaos legion that has the traits above is probably the Word Bearers.

Say what now? The XVII have three non HH novels, no special characters on the tabletop outside of the Heresy supplements, and they haven't had special rules since 3.5 (like everyone else).

 

Nor did their fluff "seamlessly support integrating the cult units", Index Astartes: Word Bearers stated that they serve the pantheon and look down on those devoted to a single god.

 

The Dark Disciple series introduced a faction dedicated to Khorne, but they weren't full on Berserkers with the Nails, and Marduk explicitly rebuked those tempted to go full Slaanesh in book 2.

[Kol Saresk]

Don't forget the Siege of Vraks and the 4th Edition Codex which introduced the Sanctified, another Word Bearers faction devoted solely to Khorne. And the funny thing is, the squad you're talking about wasn't devoted to Khorne. It was stated that they traveled more along Khorne's path and that liberalism towards the Blood Good was tolerated due to the results it produced. Not to mention the bit introduced way back when and repeated in Dark Disciple that each Host is different and could easily be more liberal, more conservative, more denominational or more anti than the last.

 

 

Not being the focus I understand and I can live with that..because it's not like the CS is the focus either, the backgrounds too big to focus on any one group.

 

That's not to say I wouldn't like an Emperors Children supplement one of these days.

Or at least a revamped Index Chaotica. I mean heck, the Possessed and the Terminus Est both got one, how hard could it be for the last eight Legions to get one. right?

EDIT: While I am at it Loesh, where can I find Wage of Sin? Is it an audio?

 

 

Wage of Sin is the codifier for Eidolens flagship in the Battlefleet Gothic Powers of Chaos if you can get ahold of the text, it has some neat tidbits of information. He participated in most of Abaddons Black Crusades and he maintains a sizable retinue of Noise Marines. It's implied to be responsable for the razing of the pleasure world Beilisimar in the Belis Corona sector.

 

BFG huh? I think I still have the old PDFs dloating around on my computer somewhere. Definitely going to have to go back through those.

[Loesh]

He's got some pretty good lore, the Emperors Children novels expand on it a bit. Essentially after he was decapitated his head was reattached with Fabius, promptly going insane from constantly being in pain/pleasure from the reattached nerves.

 

After which apparently took lessons from the Alpha Legion, because the Inquisition cannot pin him down. It's implied he championed N'kari, seduced a queen, and his pleasure fleet has been ravaging countless worlds over the last 10,000 years. They can't get any witnesses though so they can only guess.

 

It probably doesn't help that the Emperors Children don't call him Eidolen anymore, just 'The Risen'.

[Goreshed]

3.5 was loved because you could do both. You can have your warband and have multiple marks in the army and you could get that 'black legion' feel or play black legion for that matter. You could also play the Legions but always in the back of the mind was the fact of, these guys are shattered and this is the warband you could come up with. Then 4th happened and GW rammed legions down the drain and stuff warbands down our throats and it has been that way since.

 

Options are what matter and GW hates doing that because they want you to pick the most expensive unit and sell you as many of them as you can put yourself into bankrupcy with.

 

What we should call them is either the Shattered Legions or Renegades because in essense that is what you have. Broken down Legions who still fight by their same style and in a general sense do the same things (EC just want to hump the universe, TS just want to study sorcerery, WE just want to make more skulls, etc). They take what they can get for troops, create more of them and continue doing what they have always done. Then you have Renegades that have turned from the false light of the Emperor and come to the side who has the better cookies. These guys still bring the flavor of how they fought from where they were at before and now they have the influence of other traitors/gods that can put the flavor into the armies and give way to more hodgepodge of units under the same banner.

[A D-B]

At least if you believe the Cabal, yeah. Eldrad doesn't seem to buy it, like most things it's left ambiguous.

 

I dunno, changing that at this stage would be a pretty significant shift. It's not really ambiguous at all - it's always been in the background (openly stated in various publications) that Horus was duped by the Chaos Gods and they abandoned him at the last moment. Abaddon has the Mark of Chaos Ascendant. Horus never did.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

At least if you believe the Cabal, yeah. Eldrad doesn't seem to buy it, like most things it's left ambiguous.

I dunno, changing that at this stage would be a pretty significant shift. It's not really ambiguous at all - it's always been in the background (openly stated in various publications) that Horus was duped by the Chaos Gods and they abandoned him at the last moment. Abaddon has the Mark of Chaos Ascendant. Horus never did.

Yeah, Loesh and I discussed it for a little bit after this post. He's on the newer side of being introduced to 40K so he quite hasn't had the immersion that some have.

[Emperors Immortals]

I wish there was a way for people to read the old white dwarf magazine - it had good material and a great gaming culture explained. It is a sandbox and it is meant to be DiY as much as possible - the studio doesn't hate us it just never wanted to step on our toes. JJ tried to keep it up but there is something missing for the last few years.

 

Also Chambers is God.

 

 

A D-B - Iron Maiden and Metallica patches - do you ever get sick of being aweseome? I still have those patches hehehe...

[Loesh]

 

 

At least if you believe the Cabal, yeah. Eldrad doesn't seem to buy it, like most things it's left ambiguous.

I dunno, changing that at this stage would be a pretty significant shift. It's not really ambiguous at all - it's always been in the background (openly stated in various publications) that Horus was duped by the Chaos Gods and they abandoned him at the last moment. Abaddon has the Mark of Chaos Ascendant. Horus never did.

Yeah, Loesh and I discussed it for a little bit after this post. He's on the newer side of being introduced to 40K so he quite hasn't had the immersion that some have.

 

 

 

Yeah, i'v only been here six years compared to what i'm finding is most peoples twenty.  :p

[Kol Saresk]

Hahaha! That is still on the newer side!

[Loesh]

Yeah, I also want to apologize in case I came off as being against choice and Warband mixing as well.

 

My own group is mono-Emperors Children and it's the only legion i'm really dug into, but just due to the very nature of the setting that doesn't mean other Legions haven't influenced it.

 

Hell, Sigvalds Warband can basically be summered as: What if an Emperors Children group took cues from the Red Cosairs and Word Bearers to organize a seafaring religious quasi-piratical organization that uses Noise Marines and Vox enhancers to broadcast Slaaneshi propaganda.

[Wade Garrett]

Abaddon has the Mark of Chaos Ascendant. Horus never did.

So...what do we call that powerboost he got from the Ruinous Powers in Vengeful Spirit?

 

The Mark of Chaos Beginning To Trend Slightly Upwards?

 

;)

[Loesh]

Abaddon has the Mark of Chaos Ascendant. Horus never did.

So...what do we call that powerboost he got from the Ruinous Powers in Vengeful Spirit?

The Mark of Chaos Beginning To Trend Slightly Upwards?

The mark of 'Hold the gun so Abaddon can pull the trigger'

[incinerator950]

The mark of Plot signifance or Mark of Suedom.