Imperial Armour Discussion: Land Raiders

[Jolemai]

With a number of units and options from Forgeworld's various Imperial Armour books available for the Blood Angels to use the aim here is to 1) share and impart our collective knowledge to our fellow Captains and 2) promote discussion on use and synergies regarding the lesser-known potential boons to our forces. I want this thread to remain in flux and will happily edit the first post as people reply with their own ideas so we can get the optimal use out of each unit.

A link to other similar reviews can be found from post #6 on the Blood Angels resources thread.

Land Raider Variants

Below are the five Land Raider alternatives that are available via Forgeworld to compliment our Codex Crusader, Phobos and Redeemer. Each one offers something unique to our forces which further expands the options at our disposal as we look increasingly at different methods of winning our games. Note that the Land Raider Excelsior forms part of a unit with the Rhino Primaris, and this is discussed in length here.

Disclaimer

As per the response on the BA-centric FAQ thread, each of these Land Raiders can be selected as Dedicated Transports for those who can take a Codex Land Raider (currently, this is restricted to Terminators). Naturally, discuss this with your gaming group if necessary and discussions revolving around the use of this - primarily with the Archangels Strike Force - can be found on the Army Building Discussion: Detachments thread.

Land Raider Achilles

Land Raider Achilles by gav1892

Availability
The rules are found in Imperial Armour volume two second edition - War Marchines of the Adeptus Astartes (IAv2SE) on page 56. Regular model is available here whilst the alpha pattern can be found here (note that there are 30k rules for this pattern and they will not be discussed here). As the model is the same size as a regular Land Raider, conversions should be possible. The front gun can be added with either the Thunderfire Cannon kit from Games Workshop direct or the quad-mortar Rapier kit from Forgeworld.

Rules

• Same stats as a Codex Land Raider, Heavy Support slot
• Transport capacity of six, no forward assault ramp, one access point on each side facing
• One hull-mounted thunderfire cannon, two sponson-mounted twin-linked multi-melta, extra armour, smoke launcher, searchlight, Armoured Ceramite (no extra D6 for weapons with type: Melta)
• Options to take: hunter-killer missile, dozer blade, pintle-mounted storm bolter/multi-melta
• Power of the Machine Spirit, Ferromantic Invulnerability (Lance and Melta rules are ignored; all penetrating hits bar Destroyer weapons are at -1 on the damage table)

Use
This is a pricey choice for us, but it can fill a hole for us as we currently do not have access to a Thunderfire cannon outside of the ally matrix, or by taking a non-BA Formation. Conversely, it also competes for a roster slot with the quad-mortar Rapier Weapons Platform which essentially gives us both rolling and stationary options. Given an additional Multi Melta and possible a Hunter Killer Missile upgrade, this becomes deadly to vehicles within 24” and PotMS can be used to shoot the Thunderfire Cannon elsewhere. Six occupants could be either a Techmarine (and possible a Servitor entourage) to keep it repaired or, any combat squad to keep them safe until needed. As with all Land Raiders, either plan a list around it or supplement with other Land Raider types.

Land Raider Helios

Availability
The rules are found in IAv2SE on page 56. Regular model is available here. Conversion-wise, this could be easily done by adding a Whirlwind Missile Launcher to on part of the model and a sensor (perhaps the command sprue upgrade or the air defense command platform would be a viable choice). There's certainly some suitably third party bits out there.

Rules

• Same stats as a Codex Land Raider, Heavy Support slot
• Transport capacity of ten, forward assault ramp, one access point on each side facing
• One Whirlwind missile launcher which is upgradable to a Hyperios air defense missile launcher (48”, STR 8, AP 3, Heavy 1, Skyfire, Interceptor, Heat Seeker [Re-roll failed to hit rolls against Flyers, Fast Skimmers or Super Heavy Flyers]), two sponson-mounted twin-linked lascannons
• Options to take: extra armour, hunter-killer missile, dozer blade, pintle-mounted storm bolter/multi-melta
• Power of the Machine Spirit, Assault Vehicle

Use
Another good use for PotMS as it enables your Whirlwind/Hyperios to fire elsewhere, leaving your lascannons (and multi-melta) to fire at an armoured target. I see this used in a similar fashion to our Phobos’ and as a replacement for a Whirlwind in a list not saturated with other Rhino chassis. Cargo can be pretty much what you want in this instance. Sadly, with the changes to the vehicle damage table and the combination of Skyfire and Interceptor, the Hyperios upgrade is situational at best and it not something to be counted upon for Flyer/Skimmer defense.

Note: One interesting tidbit is that on the recently released Primus Redoubt experimental rules, the Hyperios is listed as being Heavy 2. Now whilst this could well be a typo, it could also be an indication of a much welcomed change that we'll see when the long-awaited FAQs go live. As with all Land Raiders, either plan a list around it or supplement with other Land Raider types.

Land Raider Promethius

Availability
The rules are found in IAv2SE on page 59. Regular model is available here. Conversion-wise, this could be easily done by adding a sensor (perhaps the command sprue upgrade or the air defense command platform) and knocking up a quad-heavy bolter sponson (perhaps from the quad-heavy bolter Rapier kit).

Rules

• Same stats as a Codex Land Raider, Elites slot
• Transport capacity of ten, forward assault ramp, one access point on each side facing
• Two sponsons, each with two twin-linked heavy bolters, searchlight, smoke launchers
• Options to take: extra armour, hunter-killer missile, dozer blade, pintle-mounted storm bolter/multi-melta
• Power of the Machine Spirit, Assault Vehicle, Improved Comms (+1 reserve rolls, not cumulative with any other bonus), Battle Auspex (Night Vision USR and any enemy the tank fires upon has their cover save reduced by -1)

Use
Decent reserve manipulation is always a bonus and as such, it’s a feasible alternative to a Damocles Command Rhino or a Comms relay should either of those not fit into your army. Battle Auspex is very interesting as it gives you a decent first turn punch on certain missions (which you can then illuminate with your Searchlight) and throughout the game, whatever it fires on has a reduced cover save – currently, the only way for C:BA to get Auspex outside of a Character that forgoes his shooting that turn. We’re also looking at 12 STR 5 shots that are re-rollable – this shouldn’t be knocked although it can be replicated elsewhere (i.e Land Speeder or Devastators). Again, its cargo can be anything but as you’re likely to advance with this tank, something able to assault out of it would benefit the most. As with all Land Raiders, either plan a list around it or supplement with other Land Raider types.

Land Raider Proteus

Availability
The rules are found in IAv2SE on page 56. Regular model is available here or the armoured version can be found here. This one is tricky to convert as it is smaller than a Land Raider and a different shape. Those who have the old Mk I Land Raider could easily run it as one of these. If you’re crazy you could strip down a Spartan…

Rules

• Same stats as a Codex Land Raider, Heavy Support slot
• Transport capacity of ten, forward assault ramp, one access point on each side facing
• Two sponson-mounted twin-linked lascannons, searchlight, smoke launchers
• Can be further upgraded to have a hull-mounted twin-linked heavy bolter/heavy flamer and an Explorator Augury Web (Scout USR, transport capacity reduced to eight, at the start of the controlling players turn you may select a mode – Disruption Mode [makes your opponents reserve rolls to be -1] or Relay Mode [allows you to re-roll your reserve rolls (not cumulative with another EAW)])
• Options to take: extra armour, hunter-killer missile, dozer blade, pintle-mounted storm bolter/multi-melta
• Power of the Machine Spirit

Use
Currently, the only way to get a tank to Scout in a BA force is to include an Inquisitor with the Liber Heresis and with the Inquisition Codex requiring an update sooner rather than later, I wouldn’t count on it to remain. Therefore, any cargo on board gains an additional 12” move before the game begins and I can see Death Company loving this. Sadly, a capacity of eight means we can’t Scout Terminators but they are other means for that (e.g. Imperial Bastion + Escape Hatch). Also, this EAW upgrade offers two types of reserve manipulation which can cripple an enemy that relies on it or boost yours: everyone loves a re-roll after all and if you’re using Corbulo, it means his re-roll can be used elsewhere (Far Seeing Eye it often used on a crucial reserve re-roll). Sadly, this upgrade doesn’t come cheap… If going for the EAW upgrade, the cargo should be anything that needs to get up the field if not, then if could be anything to be keep safe for later. Note that the lack of Assault Vehicle USR means it should be used the same way as a Rhino/Razorback in some aspects. As with all Land Raiders, either plan a list around it or supplement with other Land Raider types.

Spartan Assault Tank

Not strictly a Land Raider but nevertheless...

Availability
The rules are found in IAv2SE on page 117. Regular model is available here. This one is tricky to convert as it is larger and wider than a Land Raider, and a different shape. Those who have the old Mk I or a Proteus could stretch one into a Spartan…

Rules

• AV 14/14/14, HP 5, BS 4, Heavy Support slot
• Transport capacity of 25, forward assault ramp, two access points on each side facing
• Two sponson-mounted quad-lascannons (48”, STR 9, AP 2, Heavy 2, twin-linked)/laser destroyers (36”, STR 9, AP 2, Ordnance 1, twin-linked), one hull-mounted twin-linked heavy bolter/twin-linked heavy flamer, searchlight, smoke launchers,
• Options to take: frag assault launchers, hunter-killer missile, Armoured Ceramite (no extra D6 for weapons with type: Melta), pintle-mounted storm bolter/heavy bolter/heavy flamer/multi-melta
• Assault Vehicle, Power of the Machine Spirit

Use
With a vastly increased capacity, this should be filled with Death Company or Terminators with attached Independent Characters. Imagine the scenario, you have you squad with attached Chaplain/Librarian and Sanguinary Priest (if necessary). Throw in an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with Liber Heresis (Scout first turn, Split-fire/Hatred/Fear/Counter Attack on subsequent turns), Rad Grenades (-1 T, first round of assault), Legacy of Glory: Battle of Terra (tank gains It Will Not Die) and we’re looking at a mini deathstar. Yes, I know this is ridiculously expensive but it’s going to be fun to do at least once…
Heavy flamer upgrades are interesting and as this tank will be getting up close, it becomes a fun choice (especially as we have PotMS). With the rules as they currently are, the laser destroyer sponsons on a non-Super-heavy Vehicle is extremely unfavoured as firing one will result in any other weaponry having to fire as snap shots. (Note that this is also retrospective, so firing other weapons first is not permitted - this has been discussed extensively in the Official Rules forum.) Notwithstanding this concern, it is still one of the few ways to get laser destroyers into our force outside of a Fellblade or a Rapier Weapons Battery. Frag assault launchers are only worth it if Terminators are chosen, and only then with lightning claws. As with all Land Raiders, either plan a list around it or supplement with other Land Raider types.

Summary

So there we have it. Five additional Land Raider variants meaning that the total we can field is eight. All are proxyable and each has their uses, depending on what you want to achieve. Personally, I can see myself fielding each one in a themed and/or regular list.

I hope this has been of some use and I would love to see some discussion on further uses, tactics and anything else – especially your experiences using them. I’ll happily update this as we go along so let me know about any mistakes or alternatives (for example, if we can get our hands on the Land Raider Terminus Ultra).

[Shaezus]

The achilles is sort of my favourite of these. But it's just such a tease; immune to melta and lance, but they took away assault vehicle which nerfs the very reason I would want lance-melta immunity: getting my assault element across the field and into assault without taking casualties. So it boggles me somewhat, but hey.

 

This makes the Spartan my preferred choice, bearing in mind the others take up a HS slot which can be filled at equal or greater effectiveness and much cheaper cost by other units. Then again, if you want your thunderfire or whirlwind wrapped in AV14, at least you have the choice.

[Xenith]

The achilles is sort of my favourite of these. But it's just such a tease; immune to melta and lance, but they took away assault vehicle which nerfs the very reason I would want lance-melta immunity: getting my assault element across the field and into assault without taking casualties. So it boggles me somewhat, but hey.

 

 

You forget that it also gets -1 on the penetration table, meaning it can only ever be one shotted by S9+ weapons that are AP1, which are very few and far between.

 

It's essentially immune to melta, as melta cannot penetrate it, losing a single hull point. Same with lances. 

 

It's pretty indestructible.

[Shaezus]

It's pretty indestructible alright, but as a transport for an assault unit that means nothing if the unit has to sit in the open for a turn before they can assault. If they kept it as an assault vehicle, even for more points I would take it. Just can't see a role for it as it is.

[Xenith]

An indestructible model that puts a unit with 'objective secured' onto an objective of your choice by the game end, all the while murdering hordes?

 

What's the point in making it an assault vehicle? You lose the benefit of it's main gun if you move 12" per turn. It would be like making a vindicator into an assault vehicle.

[Shaezus]

It is not indestructible at all at tournament level actually.

 

Point is of you can give that lance-melta immunity to a gunline vehicle, why can you not give it to an assault vehicle?

 

What role do you use it for anyway?

[Remtek]

Land Raider Promethius looks interesting for a low model count Stormraven list. Since comms relay really dosnt fit with a reserve list (70points with ADL) + the LR fit's well with low deployment lists starting alone on the table. 

[Xenith]

It is not indestructible at all at tournament level actually.

 

It's not actually indestructible at any level. It's just very hard to kill. Even a knight has to get into B2B with it. Actually, the knight Errants melta cannon is one of the few things that can one-shot a LR. But it needs to hit, then roll two 6's in a row.

 

Point is of you can give that lance-melta immunity to a gunline vehicle, why can you not give it to an assault vehicle?

Because of game balance?

 

Can you see the problem caused by a near-invincible tank that can deliver a deadly assault unit to anywhere in your opponent's line, and then allow them to charge out of the vehicle?

 

 

[Shaezus]

Oh, game balance. You mean the same game balance they had in mind with the new invisibility rule? Or the new summoning powers? Or a Fire Raptor which can easily destroy 4 units before you get to shoot back at it? Think we all know there's no such thing as game balance in 40k. It's not something to be expected either in a game of this complexity and depth of background.

 

For example there was the lucius drop pod, pre-nerf ofc, which could do as you said but better (turn 1 assault) and cost about 1/4 of the price of an achilles.

 

So anyway I'm just saying personally I would love to see an assault-based achilles, which in line with other models from the same book represents improvements based on experience.

 

Like how we have the Scorpius, a reflection of the adaptions made by astartes, from fighting other astartes.

 

Or the Sicaran, the result of fighting against high-speed skimmers. Like the Scorpius it is the product of lessons learned in combat.

 

I'm sure you get the logic.

Xenith, what role do you see yourself using the achilles for?

[Jolemai]

Thread updated!

 

Given that there is talk regarding Land Raiders right now, I've updated all the links on here and spruced it up to the current standard. As usual, feel free to comment should I have missed anything or should there be anything to add.

[gav1892]

The Achilles I've found is always a bullet magnet which is fun and allows my other units to move about somewhat unharmed. That thunder fire cannon is scary to many. I usually keep my warlord in it until I need them

[The Unseen]

None of these vehicles are worth much as transports currently, even the Achilles. Grav weapons are everywhere, and all it takes is a single 6, and your not moving anymore.

[Jolemai]

If we're talking in a vacuum, then a Techmarine only needs a 5+ and it can go again ;)

 

It's only Gravturions who can reliably stop tanks and to be fair, facing them is meta dependent and why are you letting them get that close anyway?

 

If people want to use them as transports they will and they will make them work. Usually through unit redundancy and threat priority.

[Quixus]

Quad-lascannons or laser blasters are subject to taste, but will obliterate enemy armour either way.

Am I missing an erratum here? According to IA2 2nd ed. both weapons have the same Strength and AP and are twinlinked, but the quad lascannons are heavy 2 instead of ordnance 1 and have greater range.

 

Frag assault launchers are only worth it if Terminators are chosen.

I'd go even further and say frag assault launchers are only worth it if you take terminators with lots of lightning claws. FALs don't do much for terminators with power/chain fists or thunder hammers.

[Jolemai]

Not sure what you are getting at with the laser quote...

[Quixus]

I wouldn't say it is a matter of taste if one weapon is inferior in some aspects and equal in all others. I'd say that there is no reason to ever take the laser destroyer, unless I am missing something.

[Charlo]

Well it is more reliable at punching through armour in one go due to ordnance. And you can at least snap fire the other one (though I could be wrong there)

 

Whereas the Lascannon offers more shots with less chance to blow up the enemy.

[Quixus]

Ah, I forgot about the reroll from ordnance. Still twice as many shots (and thus twice as many hits) is slightly better than the reroll. Even if the reroll was equal to twice the shots, you still have shorter range on the laser destroyer.

[Xenith]

Ah, I forgot about the reroll from ordnance. 

 

Not a reroll. Roll two dice and pick the highest.

 

Quite powerful, but not at the expense of making the other laser destroyer snap fire.

[Jolemai]

 

 

Ah, I forgot about the reroll from ordnance.

Not a reroll. Roll two dice and pick the highest.

 

Quite powerful, but not at the expense of making the other laser destroyer snap fire.

Looks like that point slipped through, cheers. Will add it in the next update.

[Quixus]

Not a reroll. Roll two dice and pick the highest.

That is functionally identical to a reroll.

[Xenith]

 

Not a reroll. Roll two dice and pick the highest.

That is functionally identical to a reroll.

 

 

Not in the slightest.

 

With a reroll, if the second result is lower, you're stuck. With ordnance, you roll two at once and pick the highest.

[Quixus]

With a reroll on all rolls you are right, but I assumed a reroll of failed armour penetration rolls similar to Tank Hunter. Glancing hit make it more complicated

[Jolemai]

Seeing how this has become "hot" of late...

 

Thread updated!

 

Update log:

• Image added for the Achilles
• Mistakes addressed
• Minor tweaks and changes

[Xenith]

With a reroll on all rolls you are right, but I assumed a reroll of failed armour penetration rolls similar to Tank Hunter. Glancing hit make it more complicated

 

Ordnance is still significantly better than tank hunter: With TH if the first roll is a glance, you re-roll, and the second roll is a fail to damage, you're screwed.

 

With ordnance, you roll both at the same time, and pick the best.