Community project : Let's found a Chapter ! (Phase 3 & 4)

[Gorkimedes]

Knights Panthera does have a good balance not shoving either influence in your face.

[GreyCrow]

Yup, I kind of like it better as well, it feels just natural and has a good sonority to it...

 

Now, because many of us are in agreement with that name and have trouble coming up with new ideas, there are two options we can go with :

1) Either we settle this today and speed up the process

2) Either we still keep the deadline on Thursday 12:00am and try to find improvements

 

You decide !

[Tiberius Cato]

It seems (to me atleast) that we are pretty much unanimous for Knights Panthera. I cast my vote for proceeding with the process.

[Black Cohort]

Yup, I kind of like it better as well, it feels just natural and has a good sonority to it...

 

Now, because many of us are in agreement with that name and have trouble coming up with new ideas, there are two options we can go with :

1) Either we settle this today and speed up the process

2) Either we still keep the deadline on Thursday 12:00am and try to find improvements

 

You decide !

I think we should wait a few more hours and see if anything better comes up. If no better ideas suggested by say 1800 eastern standard time then we move on.

 

But if everyone else thinks we are good to move on, I am fine with that.

[GreyCrow]

Let's settle for 19:00 EST (12am in most Europe) if that's fine by you and will still give enough time.

 

So far, I have to admit, all of this is going way smoother than I anticipated :) We're having a good consensus, good suggestions and so far keeping up with the themes ! I'll start working on the colour scheme guidelines for tonight. While I'll keep them vastly open, I just think that this is a phase where we might have vastly divergent suggestions, so I'll have to work on how to ensure we manage to reach consensus !

[Stercus]

I'm happy with finishing the naming tonight. Already firing up my logic engine for the next stage.

[GreyCrow]

And we have a name ! The Knights Panthera is the official name of the Chapter, based on so much consensus and no new responses today !

 

Unfortunately, you'll have to hold your paintbrushes at bay, for I forgot that we still had 2 steps to get done (which will help to naturally design the iconography later on) : Chapter Beliefs and Combat doctrine !

 

Ongoing step : Chapter beliefs and combat doctrine

 

So, now that the Knights Panthera finally have a name, it's time to flesh out how they act on the battlefield and what their beliefs are. We have covered that already briefly during the theme and the Naming, but let's flesh it out !

 

Because these two steps are pretty similar in terms of content, we will be doing them simultaneously : after all, beliefs highly influence the combat doctrine of a Chapter !

 

Let's keep in mind that the Knights Panthera are Codex-Adherent (10 companies, divided in Veteran, Battle, Reserve and Scout companies). As such, they will follow the general doctrines laid out by the Codex (and will use Ultramarines Chapter Tactics on the tabletop !) although some deviation from the Codex is permitted, though not as differentiating as the Iron Hands, Raven Guard or Black Templar Chapters, for example.

 

Please also keep in mind that the beliefs and the doctrines absolutely must fall in line with their general theme : a clear intent to capture prisoners for later public sacrifices in name of the Emperor, as well as a reliance on heavy infantry (Tactical squads) supported by cavalry (Bikes and Assault Marines).

That said, other uses for these squads, including metaphors of their role within the culture of the Chapter are absolutely permitted, as well as kinks for special formations or favoured deployment patterns !

 

This step is ongoing until Thursday November 6th at 12:00 a.m. !

 

May the Emperor protect your inspiration !

[ElectricPaladin]

Let's see... off the top of my head:

• Preference for boltguns and other projectile-based weapons rather than energy weapons (plasma and melta), because the former is more likely to incapacitate and wound, while the former is more likely to completely destroy its target.
• Sergeants and HQs fight with specialized electric shock power weapons that act more like tasers and less like lightsabres. They've got an edge - they'll still kill you! - but there's a good chance they'll just overwhelm your immune system and knock you out of the fight.
• Devastator squads tend to be made up of inexperienced marines (a la most chapters). Service as a veteran devastator sergeant, however, is a punishment detail. You get stuck in the back, providing fire support, with almost no chance for capture and glory!
• Teleport homers are popular for tactical sergeants, since the tactical squads tend to get up close and personal with the enemy. Rhinos are common for the same reason.
• Perhaps there should be a special formation of tactical and assault squads that allows the assault squads to avoid scatter if they Deep Strike near the tactical squad?

[Black Cohort]

On the power weapon issue, I figured they would use "power mauls", basically anything more likely to break bones than kill you.

 

I like the idea that devastator sgts are basically on punishment detail, that being said what did the captain of the devastator reserve company do to deserve his position?

 

I wish there was a way in the codex to give tacticals a second close combat weapon as it would be very thematic.

[ElectricPaladin]

On the power weapon issue, I figured they would use "power mauls", basically anything more likely to break bones than kill you.

 

I like the idea that devastator sgts are basically on punishment detail, that being said what did the captain of the devastator reserve company do to deserve his position?

 

I wish there was a way in the codex to give tacticals a second close combat weapon as it would be very thematic.

 

I really like the power mauls idea. Let's go with that! Almost all power weapons are power mauls. Thunder hammers are popular for veterans for the same reason! I bet they also like things with the Concussive USR, because someone who's knocked down and dizzied would be easy to capture.

 

I think that different Captains of the 9th throughout the history of the Knights Panthera have had different stories and attitudes towards the job. Maybe some of them are there trying to work off some awful dishonor... but I think at least one - maybe the current one, maybe an historical one, I don't care - should be a grumpy, grizzled old veteran who thinks that the rest of his chapter is a bunch of glory hogs who end up getting themselves in trouble and needing his boys to dig them out. He has a small cadre of like-minded sergeants, and they grumpily run around using the big guns to kick butt and make sure the inglorious battles get won, and are constantly on the lookout for freshly assigned devastators with a similar "more practical" outlook.

[Gorkimedes]

So are the sacrifices simply ritualized executions or is this chapter going full blown God-Emperor worship?

[ElectricPaladin]

So are the sacrifices simply ritualized executions or is this chapter going full blown God-Emperor worship?

 

Good question.

 

Personally, I want to see more relatively young chapters who are as deluded as the rest of the Imperium. It creates more variety.

[Black Cohort]

Brotastic that is an excellent question.  I think either is viable, though I lean more towards full on worship, similar to how death cults worship him.

[Nomus Sardauk]

If I might put forward an idea perhaps Biker Sergeants wield Power Lances/Spears rather than the Mauls others do to add to the Knight theme.

 

I'm thinking the in-game stats can be tied into the lore about capturing sacrifices. The Lances have thunder-hammer like power fields that cause a massive shock to incapacitate tougher sacrifices on the first hit but need to recharge afterwards. This would work with the lore and provide a reason for the spear's subsequent decrease in power the follow round of combat if the charge failed to wipe out the target first-time.

 

Also, can I suggest Sergeants and other high-ranking officers (or even just marines in general) wear Panther pelts as marks of status/prowess/favour? I just think the models would look cool with those fur pelts and cloaks from the Space Wolf range, you know?

[Gorkimedes]

 

Good question.

 

Personally, I want to see more relatively young chapters who are as deluded as the rest of the Imperium. It creates more variety.

 

 

I'd vote for a more religious chapter as well.

[Black Cohort]

It is definitely part of my vision of the chapter that at least some members wear big cat pelts.  Personally I was thinking that a Jaguar pelt would be a sign of membership (or former membership) of the first company.  Perhaps other pelts are used by lesser members of the chapter.

 

We could actually tie the pelts into entry into the first company, with the final rite of passage to joining being a personal hunt by the prospective member to acquire his own pelt. Entry to the first company would also require a minimum number of captives taken over the marine's career.

 

I think lances could fit for some of the faster elements.  Also remember that sgts can also take thunder hammers.  And I intend to use power maul rules to represent Macuahuitl, which are far to badass to not have as a standard melee weapon in the chapter.  Other melee weapons intended to maim or break bones would also be used, weapons that tend to kill would be avoided.

[Tiberius Cato]

I agree that pelts should be a mark of the veteran first, it's a clear throwback to how jaguar warriors were the veteran elite of the Aztec military.

 

As for a Macuahuitl, maybe we can have a special chainsword( or CC weapon) pattern to represent it.

 

I am of the opinion that the chapter would worship the Emperor as the highest diety, and all the loyalist primarchs (obviously Guilliman above the rest) as a pantheon that represent the God-Emperor's aspects. Off the top of my head:

Jaghatai Khan - swiftness and the wild hunt

Leman Russ - The primal warrior spirit

Dorn- Steadfastness

Sanguinius - Art and skill at arms

Guilliman - Knowledge and discipline

Vulkan - Humanitariansim

 

I got most of them... But if y'all don't like the idea it's totally fine to scrap it.

[GreyCrow]

Great ideas so far ! :)

 

The idea of the pantheon is pretty interesting, but perhaps having Guilliman as some kind of "2nd to the father" discipline, with the Emperor being the Allfather. After all, historically speaking, Guilliman did take over the role of his father once the Heresy has been stopped and the Pantheras are Ultramarine Chapters.

 

I think the idea of a devout Chapter is great, as ong as we don't have too much zeal in it... Don't want to step on the Templar's territory, and aside from the Templars Chapter tend to be a tad more level headed when dealing with the God-Emprah figure. Although that might be true mainly for the Primogenitors who had the Imperial Truth hardwired in their brain since the get go of the Great Crusade.

 

In terms of god figures, perhaps we could try to find inspirations in the Franks to link the Primarchs to ? That way we'd distance ourselves from the Aztec pantheon while still retaining a healthy measure of their culture.

 

Speaking of which, the Aztecs did have 2 Elite formations : the Jaguar Warriors (heavy infantry) and the Eagle Warriors (scouts, messengers, special ops). Perhaps we could have the First company have a mix of boths inspirations : Jaguars being the Sternguards while the Eagle being the Vanguard (I'm not sure there's a codified difference between Vanguard and Sternguard veterans, but we could codify one).

 

On the topic, I'll be searching for the 4th edition C:SM to see the minor/major deviations for the Chapter that we could take inspiration from. Oh god I miss the days of that (even though our Chapter Tactics are a step forward compared to 5th edition), or the custom chosen veteran skills :(

[Sete]

Hmm since this took a turn that I dont like much, I will avoid giving too much input...

For capes with fur if you want to avoid the wolfs or suck at greenstuff like me anvil industries have some cool fur capes.

Also the Aztecs I think worshipped the sun, and in many worlds trough out the Imperium they consider the sun as the Emperor. So maybe, the homeworld could have one of those head hunting tribes and the chapter took a bit of influence?

I think that in the military tactics you should retain the frankish/knight culture and in the spiritual aspects go with aztecs beliefs.also some shields axes and fur capes (no rune weapons) and feathers should provide a good mix between frank and aztec culture. A good chapter tactic is Mantis Warriors from FW. Infantry as move through cover, hammer of wrath and also the libbys can acess the divination discipline. So maybe they can sacrifice enemies and try to predict the future from the captured enemies organs :)

Also if they capture Psykers, they should make some kind if special cerimony to offer that soul to "feed" the Emperor. Take this as you will. :)

[Stercus]

I love the idea of devastator officers either being made up of stubborn old veterans and those serving a penance...

"What do you think you are doing, rushing into combat like that? You don't break the sheild wall, you impetuous fool! Six months in the ninth for you under old Halfas will sort you out..."

[Black Cohort]

I love the idea of devastator officers either being made up of stubborn old veterans and those serving a penance...

"What do you think you are doing, rushing into combat like that? You don't break the sheild wall, you impetuous fool! Six months in the ninth for you under old Halfas will sort you out..."

Probably more like 6 years. Remember marines live for centuries, 6 months is like a weekend to them.

 

Also on Jaguar/ Eagle warrior thing both had a clear focus on close combat, perhaps the distinction is more one of terminator/ power armour within the first company. As a later founding (have we decided exactly what founding? ) they probably don't have access to a full companies worth of terminator armour, so maybe they make you specialize when you join the first company.

 

I also believe that they would favour Vanguard and terminators far more than sternguard. Hard to capture prisoners when they died from exposure to horrible acid.

 

As for overall chapter strategy I feel like they prefer to operate on the reinforced company level, so a full battle company + supporting elements. Probably between 15 and 20 squads in total.

[ElectricPaladin]

I love the idea of devastator officers either being made up of stubborn old veterans and those serving a penance...

"What do you think you are doing, rushing into combat like that? You don't break the sheild wall, you impetuous fool! Six months in the ninth for you under old Halfas will sort you out..."

 

And... the captain of the 9th is now Old Halfas. I love it! We should eventually stat him out as an special character.

 

Also, while I'm posting, I'd like to say that I love the idea of the loyalist primarchs being worshipped as a pantheon of gods. I mean, the Imperium basically does that already, so that would add to the idea that this chapter is inspired by the religion of their homeworld/formed their own personal version of the Imperial Cult.

[Stercus]

Having the chapter as devout, but unconventional adherents to the imperial cult could be interesting. As both the cultures from which we are drawing had pantheistic belief systems it kind of makes sense to utilise the Primarchs as sort of 'under-gods'.

[Tiberius Cato]

I'm not sure on the exact details of what each primarch would preside over, but it would be quite interesting to see what we can come up with.

 

I think for veterans that only TDA and Vanguard vets are the only logical choice. Thinking ahead for you gamers, it'd be pretty pointless to field only bolter weilding Sternguad, since they would likely not use weapons that have a very high chance of killing the potential sacrificee, as exemplars of the chapter's beliefs and such.

[Black Cohort]

If we go with something based on pre-christian Saxon religious basis for the Primarchs then I think focusing on the various aspects of the Primarchs would be a good idea, much like how ArcticPaladin suggested.

 

For the three he missed I would add

the Lion for his nobility and strategic mind

Ferrus Manus for his unwavering loyalty and hatred of traitors

Corax for ability to survive against the odds