Tiberius Cato Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I like the idea of ritual divinations, the question becomes is this a librarian or chaplain thing to do? I also agree that having each company have one Primarch as a patron can make things awkward. Perhaps instead each captain/ company chaplain is the head of one of the cults. I think the librarian would be present for book keeping purposes and for wipping the initiates mind of his past, making him a blank slate for the chapter ready to adopt his new role in the chapter and in his faith.The chaplain would be there to perform the ritual, obviously. I think the chaplains should be devoted to the pantheon as a whole, so that each brother, regardless of company, may consult them on matters of faith. Captains being the head of each cult would be nice. Maybe they take on an appearance that makes them appear as an aspect of their patron? Keeping with my Dorn example, the captain that has Dorn as his patron bears golden armour adorned with aquilas and lightening bolts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorkimedes Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Do you think the chapter would look at past heroes as minor deities / saints or would it be a strict pantheon of the Primarchs and the Emperor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Perhaps the divination is done by the chaplain on an animal captured by the scout about to receive his divination? His last trial as part of the 10th company. Do you think the chapter would look at past heroes as minor deities / saints or would it be a strict pantheon of the Primarchs and the Emperor? Personally I think we should avoid this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Cato Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Maybe only chapter masters if we go that route. But in Aztec beliefs there were no saints. Only the gods. I'm not sure about pre-christianity saxons, but I assume the same applies. Saints came about with Catholicism, and the demigods of Mediterranean mythology is where Astartes sit already, so there's not much room for "ascendence" in the chapter's beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stercus Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I think the danger you have with venerating human heroes as saints is that you end up stepping on the toes of the Sororitas and ecclesiarchy. The Primarchs you can run with, because in essence they aren't human, they are already something beyond. The idea of each scout being inducted into the cult of a particular Primarch on their ascension to full astartes status is interesting. It also means we can use different numbers in each cult, so some are rarer than others. I can see the warrior gods like Dorn and russ being more common, while the more mystical or esoteric Primarchs are less so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Cato Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I think the danger you have with venerating human heroes as saints is that you end up stepping on the toes of the Sororitas and ecclesiarchy. The Primarchs you can run with, because in essence they aren't human, they are already something beyond. The idea of each scout being inducted into the cult of a particular Primarch on their ascension to full astartes status is interesting. It also means we can use different numbers in each cult, so some are rarer than others. I can see the warrior gods like Dorn and russ being more common, while the more mystical or esoteric Primarchs are less so. . My thoughts precisely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Ditto. With regards with the clans, the Exorcists have different Orisons within the chapter. Each Orison has a specific goal that some marines have in common, such as the Enochion guard contains the veterans and another has librarians. We could apply that to the Knights Panthera and have clans within the chapter that are not rigid or conform to a company or any structure. The clans could all have members who revere the same primarch. Not sure if a pseudo polytheism is allowed within the chapter that would allow a brother to be eligible to be part of several clans, like an Exorcist librarian could be part of the Enochian guard and the orison with librarians. I should note that not all veterans are in the Enochion guard, and not all in the Enochion Guard are veterans. With the chapter worshipping each primarch instead of just guilliman, what if they dont know their proginater, they could still be UM successors but either the records got lost or they are from the dark founding (unless thats been addressed already and ive missed it). Then it would give a legitimate reason why they worship each primarch equally, and of course why some worship several. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stercus Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I think part of the initial conditions a that the chapter be a codex compliant Ultramarines successor. As far as the Primarch worship goes, I think we're looking at a kind of "first among equals" vibe as far as Guilliman is concerned. I would make the analogy with Horus before he was appointed warmaster. I've in fact just had a little brainwave about that. How about Guilliman is the patron of the veteran marines, and it is a requirement that the marine fulfils oaths within the cults of several other Primarchs before being inducted into the brotherhood of Guilliman? Membership of each cult could require certain aspirations and tasks, which we could incorporate into our prisoner-taking ethos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 What if the chapter had a strong sense of hero veneration, but didn't quite deify their heroes? And what if, as a quirk, they sometimes do this to heroes from other chapters that they become aware of. "Say... why is everyone asking me questions about Brother Erkose?" "Well, you are a Death Specter, and we have venerated him for his heroism ever since our chapters fought side-by-side in M38.037! My brothers are hopeful that perhaps you met him during your training and might have more of his wisdom to share." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stercus Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Veneration of heroes through the telling of great narrative poems is something the Saxons were very fond of. Beowulf was a story told for hundreds of years before it was ever written down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I think maintaining the stories of great hero's is and should be distinct from the chapter cult. I think all marine chapters do it to a certain extent, but perhaps the Knights Panthera have particularly good records of their past, and it is a requirement/ matter of pride that all battle brothers be able to relate at least one epic tale. It is even possible that the chapter tracks marine genealogy (aka who gets geneseed from who) and you are required to memorize tales of those whose strength runs through your veins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I think maintaining the stories of great hero's is and should be distinct from the chapter cult. I think all marine chapters do it to a certain extent, but perhaps the Knights Panthera have particularly good records of their past, and it is a requirement/ matter of pride that all battle brothers be able to relate at least one epic tale. It is even possible that the chapter tracks marine genealogy (aka who gets geneseed from who) and you are required to memorize tales of those whose strength runs through your veins. Oh, man. I really love this idea. I love the idea of an Astartes kneeling in the alcove dedicated to the greatest hero of his gene-line, meditating on his deeds and praying for strength and wisdom. I have this image of a beautiful stained glass window for the hero, with the light falling on the kneeling Astartes and surrounding him in a multicolored halo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I think maintaining the stories of great hero's is and should be distinct from the chapter cult. I think all marine chapters do it to a certain extent, but perhaps the Knights Panthera have particularly good records of their past, and it is a requirement/ matter of pride that all battle brothers be able to relate at least one epic tale. It is even possible that the chapter tracks marine genealogy (aka who gets geneseed from who) and you are required to memorize tales of those whose strength runs through your veins. Oh, man. I really love this idea. I love the idea of an Astartes kneeling in the alcove dedicated to the greatest hero of his gene-line, meditating on his deeds and praying for strength and wisdom. I have this image of a beautiful stained glass window for the hero, with the light falling on the kneeling Astartes and surrounding him in a multicolored halo... It could also be considered a good/ bad omen if something happens to an important geneline. The last set of geneseed in a line of heros is lost forever = bad omen. 3 generations after a great hero and 10 of his line are now full battle brothers = good omen. It could also impact what is expected of individual marines based on what geneseed they receive. This could be particularly important if one of the proginoid glands is removed before death, then one could have the geneseed of another (or possibly several) living marines. How would a scout's career be different if his geneseed is that of the first captain or chapter master? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I think maintaining the stories of great hero's is and should be distinct from the chapter cult. I think all marine chapters do it to a certain extent, but perhaps the Knights Panthera have particularly good records of their past, and it is a requirement/ matter of pride that all battle brothers be able to relate at least one epic tale. It is even possible that the chapter tracks marine genealogy (aka who gets geneseed from who) and you are required to memorize tales of those whose strength runs through your veins. Oh, man. I really love this idea. I love the idea of an Astartes kneeling in the alcove dedicated to the greatest hero of his gene-line, meditating on his deeds and praying for strength and wisdom. I have this image of a beautiful stained glass window for the hero, with the light falling on the kneeling Astartes and surrounding him in a multicolored halo... It could also be considered a good/ bad omen if something happens to an important geneline. The last set of geneseed in a line of heros is lost forever = bad omen. 3 generations after a great hero and 10 of his line are now full battle brothers = good omen. It could also impact what is expected of individual marines based on what geneseed they receive. This could be particularly important if one of the proginoid glands is removed before death, then one could have the geneseed of another (or possibly several) living marines. How would a scout's career be different if his geneseed is that of the first captain or chapter master? Or... what if you are stuck with the geneseed of a known traitor, or someone who screwed up... not badly enough that their geneseed was destroyed, but badly enough to cast a pall on all their descendents, at least until the line ends, or the deed is forgotten, or someone manages to redeem the line with some act of heroism... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I think maintaining the stories of great hero's is and should be distinct from the chapter cult. I think all marine chapters do it to a certain extent, but perhaps the Knights Panthera have particularly good records of their past, and it is a requirement/ matter of pride that all battle brothers be able to relate at least one epic tale. It is even possible that the chapter tracks marine genealogy (aka who gets geneseed from who) and you are required to memorize tales of those whose strength runs through your veins.Oh, man. I really love this idea. I love the idea of an Astartes kneeling in the alcove dedicated to the greatest hero of his gene-line, meditating on his deeds and praying for strength and wisdom. I have this image of a beautiful stained glass window for the hero, with the light falling on the kneeling Astartes and surrounding him in a multicolored halo...It could also be considered a good/ bad omen if something happens to an important geneline. The last set of geneseed in a line of heros is lost forever = bad omen. 3 generations after a great hero and 10 of his line are now full battle brothers = good omen. It could also impact what is expected of individual marines based on what geneseed they receive. This could be particularly important if one of the proginoid glands is removed before death, then one could have the geneseed of another (or possibly several) living marines. How would a scout's career be different if his geneseed is that of the first captain or chapter master? Or... what if you are stuck with the geneseed of a known traitor, or someone who screwed up... not badly enough that their geneseed was destroyed, but badly enough to cast a pall on all their descendents, at least until the line ends, or the deed is forgotten, or someone manages to redeem the line with some act of heroism... But that would be the kind of geneseed only used if the chapter was desperate. Though think of the guy who like everyone else had a proginoid harvested at the standard time, but his never used passed over for the geneseed of younger marines no explanation ever given as to why that has happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I think maintaining the stories of great hero's is and should be distinct from the chapter cult. I think all marine chapters do it to a certain extent, but perhaps the Knights Panthera have particularly good records of their past, and it is a requirement/ matter of pride that all battle brothers be able to relate at least one epic tale. It is even possible that the chapter tracks marine genealogy (aka who gets geneseed from who) and you are required to memorize tales of those whose strength runs through your veins.Oh, man. I really love this idea. I love the idea of an Astartes kneeling in the alcove dedicated to the greatest hero of his gene-line, meditating on his deeds and praying for strength and wisdom. I have this image of a beautiful stained glass window for the hero, with the light falling on the kneeling Astartes and surrounding him in a multicolored halo...It could also be considered a good/ bad omen if something happens to an important geneline. The last set of geneseed in a line of heros is lost forever = bad omen. 3 generations after a great hero and 10 of his line are now full battle brothers = good omen. It could also impact what is expected of individual marines based on what geneseed they receive. This could be particularly important if one of the proginoid glands is removed before death, then one could have the geneseed of another (or possibly several) living marines. How would a scout's career be different if his geneseed is that of the first captain or chapter master? Or... what if you are stuck with the geneseed of a known traitor, or someone who screwed up... not badly enough that their geneseed was destroyed, but badly enough to cast a pall on all their descendents, at least until the line ends, or the deed is forgotten, or someone manages to redeem the line with some act of heroism... But that would be the kind of geneseed only used if the chapter was desperate. Though think of the guy who like everyone else had a proginoid harvested at the standard time, but his never used passed over for the geneseed of younger marines no explanation ever given as to why that has happened. I was under the impression that pretty much everyone is desperate these days... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorkimedes Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Just checking, we haven't discussed founding or the like have we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Just checking, we haven't discussed founding or the like have we? I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stercus Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Being conscious of one's descent is also something that fits very well with our Frankish theme in particular. The franks while barbarian in origin were so keen to carry on the civilised legacy of the Romans that they set up their own Holy Roman Empire. What I infer from this is that not only would the Knights Panthera be aware of their descent from Guilliman, but also would be keen to record it in detail and make it a big part of their self-image. "Although our practices may seem barbaric to some, never forget that we are true sons of Guilliman, and through our actions the empire of his father is preserved." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Cato Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Man alive, some of you should mosey (sp?) On over to the Liber Cluster thread and lend us your creative wisdom or you know, join in on the fun! These are some great ideas, I have some strong urges to make some of these guys to accompany my Eagles of Glory. What beautiful shelf occupiers they shall be... On topic, what say you to having our own little Holy Roman Empire (in spaaaaace!)? Kind of like the 500 worlds of Macragge, but on a much smaller scale. Probably consisting of a core systen of I don't know... maybe around 10+ worlds? Only two woulld be used for Astartes recruitment while the rest consist of Agriworlds, Mining worlds, maybe a trade world and a forge world. That would ofcourse make the chapter quite well equipped, and able to manufacture various types of arms and armour (Panthera pattern chainswords and power/force swords aka Macauahuitls and our special bolts; and lest I forget Panthera pattern armour marks). Depending on the founding (fingers crossed for 2nd!) We could have modified versions of the older marks of armour, like Mk. II or III onwards. Okay, before I go off any further on this tangent, tracing geneseed lineage is an awesome idea. Perhaps marines who have the geneseed of a captain wear a loincloth or tabard displaying that captain's heraldry? If westick with the geneseed lineage I think when we get to the founding step that the older the founding, the better. Having a captain that can trace his lineage 10k years back to Captain Ultrasmurf the IIIrd? Badass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorkimedes Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Lineage tracing is a cool idea. Raises some interesting story ideas, if someone royally screws up do his descendants feel shame? How many generations until Dorn sees your blood as redeemed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Cato Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Lineage tracing is a cool idea. Raises some interesting story ideas, if someone royally screws up do his descendants feel shame? How many generations until Dorn sees your blood as redeemed? Dorn demands penetance and sacrifice. A brother who brings shame to his name and lineage must partake in a crusade of penetance with those who share his lineage. If he forsakes his bonds of fraternity and turns his back on the God-Emperor, beloved by all, it is the sacred duty of his genebrothers to bring him to (Knights Panthera homeworld) to be sacrificed at the temple of the Emperor Ascendant to have his false gods denounced and his body crucified at the steps of the temple and ravaged by Eagles. Only then may a gene lineage be deemed redeemed. Or something like that :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorkimedes Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 On topic, what say you to having our own little Holy Roman Empire (in spaaaaace!)? Kind of like the 500 worlds of Macragge, but on a much smaller scale. Probably consisting of a core systen of I don't know... maybe around 10+ worlds? Only two woulld be used for Astartes recruitment while the rest consist of Agriworlds, Mining worlds, maybe a trade world and a forge world. That would ofcourse make the chapter quite well equipped, and able to manufacture various types of arms and armour (Panthera pattern chainswords and power/force swords aka Macauahuitls and our special bolts; and lest I forget Panthera pattern armour marks). Depending on the founding (fingers crossed for 2nd!) We could have modified versions of the older marks of armour, like Mk. II or III onwards. "Though they were not described by the Aztec this way, there were essentially two types of provinces: Tributary and Strategic. Strategic provinces were essentially subordinate client states which provided tribute or aid to the Aztec state under "mutual consent". Tributary provinces, on the other hand, provided regular tribute to the empire; obligations on the part of Tributary provinces were mandatory rather than consensual." Was reading a little bit about the way the Aztec Empire was structured. Perhaps instead of ruling over a kingdom like the Ultramarines the Knights Panthera utilize a treaty system? Ex: Worlds that have been found lacking in conviction could be told to increase their tithe to the Imperium, supply more men and women to the Guard and if they do not to expect no aid from the Chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Since we seem to be talking about founding I would say the Knights Panthera are old but not 2nd founding old, maybe somewhere in the 4th to 6th founding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Cato Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 The oldest founding we can agree on as a whole will be fine by me, when we get there. The maintaining of their own mini empire angle seems to work for both of our themes. It could be representative of the HRE and the empire of the Aztecs ( a collection of cities that pay tribute). I quite like having each world under the Knights Panthera's rule paying tribute to the chapter. Perhaps the chapter employs terror to keep the worlds in check when they are found lacking in compliance. Bombing residential areas with virus bombs and bombs that release a flammable chemical into the air, then Astartes armed with flamers come in and clean house. Then they ensure the rebuilding process is slow and painful by assigning serfs to watch over the denizens, whom are forced to use manual labour exclusively, and summary executions and beatings are commonplace. Oh how grimdark my mind is after listening to Tyler, the Creator et al. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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