hive fleet leviathan and why you should be excited

[foxlight713]

I cheated on mine. Even back in 2nd Ed. it didn't make sense that only Caucasians made it into space, so not only do my troops, (ALL of them) have different hair colors, I also gave them Asian, African, European, Middle Eastern and Native American skin tones. Maybe doesn't fit the fluff, but that's not something I really worry about.

Both of the good SoB novels there are plenty of Sisters described as different ethnicity's and hair colors. IRC one discribed with "charcoal" skin and another with 'olive' skin, a cannoness with red hair that is part of Order of Martyred lady. Though as we all know the painted models tell a different story, mostly what we can boil down to having to paint on a production line and simplifying the number of colors. Though as the same story when it comes to personal armies (some times) they are a bit more representative of different ethnicity's. For example my SW wolf priest is black.

So....is any of this art new?

http://i.imgur.com/G2KHltf.png

Also Order of Our Martyred Lady with blue accents. Never saw that before.

Good to see new art for SoB, though the canoness looks like she would have a rather stiff upper body.

[Vigrid Of Asgaror]

Well I'll just leave this disappointing tie bit here...

 

 

"Canoness Serena lay sprawled in a pool of her own blood, her armour viciously broken open and her body pierced in a dozen places. Magda knelt beside her and closed her eyes, commending her soul to the Emperor that she might stand beside Him at His right hand.

 

The rest of her sisters lay in similar states, the evidence of a ferocious battle plain for all to see.

 

“I am sorry, Sister,” Borgio said from behind her, also looking down at the body of the canoness. “They fought bravely.”

 

“It was not enough.”

 

Behind her, Borgio cast his eyes over the battle site. The square was riddled and pockmarked with hundreds of holes and craters; the silent wreck of a black painted rhino sat to one side, its gunner slumped across the pintle of the storm Bolter."

The annoying thing is, that sounds interesting and kind of cool, I just hope that isn't all there is to it. If they write it well then the Sisters dying wouldn't be that bad. Make them dent the enemy forces drastically or something.

 

Obviously it is hard to judge it either way until we see the rest and take it in the proper context.

 

Here's hoping we aren't wiped without a REALLY good fight.

[foxlight713]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but here's another GW video on the new narrative campaign

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH1_H1QpbA8

 

The line that sticks out the most is "The Purest of Sisters Slain", then the next following lines basically saying that the BA's will come in to save the day.  Though it dose go along with what has been seen in the narrative books.  For me at least with the SoB getting some attention I'm crossing my fingers with a small fraction of hope that this might be a sign that the dev's and artists at GW are working their way around to the SoB for the prophesied SoB plastic kits we have been hearing about for years.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Well I keep getting told come jan or Rev we could have plastic sisters off the back of this though necrons are expected first.

Could make sense so let's hope.

[*Furyou Miko]

Of course they went with the 'ironic' killing of Canoness Grace by a Lictor after her back story... sigh. The aliens aren't supposed to get vengeance!

[Vigrid Of Asgaror]

I have to say, that was pretty disappointing. I play Blood Angels as well as Sisters, but I didn't at all feel like BA are super awesome like I should have. For the first time, I felt like they were that token Space Marine faction coming to save the day. We better get something either from this or because of this coverage, otherwise it yet again feels like Sisters were dragged in to slaughter to get Space Marine sales to sky rocket. :/

[Duke Danse Macabre]

We can hope, it is likely that way however.

 

In fairness the BA were fielding just generic marines, not like it was the 1st company and they have been doing allot better than smurfs thus far.

[Vigrid Of Asgaror]

That is nice to hear at least. I do want to get my hands on it to read it for myself.

[foxlight713]

We can hope, it is likely that way however.

 

In fairness the BA were fielding just generic marines, not like it was the 1st company and they have been doing allot better than smurfs thus far.

 

I do have to agree on this and, while its not plastic SoB its good to see the army are getting unique troop kits much like the Black Templars, Dark Angles, and Space Wolves have.  While looking into the future it would be really cool that they could do this for every army ( it would be great if CSM got some attention as well in the vains of 1k sons, death guard and the like).  Though I don't think even I could wait that long for plastic SoB.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

It is good to see it and I am a BA player as well, I like power armour. :P

Could be cool to see them all get this sort of coverage, fan of the Red Corsairs myself in that regards.

 

Thinking back to smurfs though they got spanked to hell by the Nids and only just survived, this is not a splinter fleet, this is the doom and darkness hive fleet Leviathan everyone has been panicking about these past 5 years, going to take some serious force to put it down. 

[taikishi]

I suspect most people who see women with bolters will think they're sisters of battle, even if they're wearing nothing but a ceramite bikini. Especially if they're wearing nothing but a ceramite bikini.

(Not saying yours are wearing that.)

Raven-san, you aren't having heretical thoughts about that daemon, are you?

Just fanfiction inspiration.

Fanfic? Hmm. I suppose we will have to confiscate these works to ensure there is no sign of Heresy.

As a former Blood Angel player, I'm now torn. Especially with this new Tactical squad with heavy flamer. Though now it gives me even more reason to rebuild a Blood Angels army and pair it with Sisters. Hmm...

[*Furyou Miko]

Sisters and BAngels don't really synergise all that well, tactically. Thematically, sure, but when you're working in a points constraint, Sisters are simply better at bringing more bolters, flamers and meltas and doing more with them, while BAngels are more forgiving because of the resilience that I4 provides.

[vonny]

It is good to see it and I am a BA player as well, I like power armour.

Could be cool to see them all get this sort of coverage, fan of the Red Corsairs myself in that regards.

Thinking back to smurfs though they got spanked to hell by the Nids and only just survived, this is not a splinter fleet, this is the doom and darkness hive fleet Leviathan everyone has been panicking about these past 5 years, going to take some serious force to put it down.

Well, to be fair - the ultramarines weren't attacked by a splinter fleet either, but by hive fleet Behemoth. (the first well documented and well known tyranid invasion, where they also got their name 'tyranids', although there have been earlier ones).

Perhaps you're thinking of ichar Iv, at the second tyrannic war, where the ultramarines fought one of the 2 main tendrils of hive fleet kraken. They didn't fare too badly in there, although they didn't destroy but simply splintered the hive fleet. The other main tendril did our holy emperor's work for us, attacking craftworld Iyanden.

I think that's kinda the point here though. There's a token force of sisters on the ground and we're expecting them to hold off a hive fleet. I don't think that's possible, perhaps even stalling them is a long shot. Having said that, old tyranid codexes had stories of the start of hive fleet leviathan where a shrine world defended by sisters held out for months (months!!!!) before finally being overrun. Even large forgeworlds like gryphonne IV didn't last that long.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Hey, some orders really hold their own, also the amount of bodies they have over a marine chapter really does help as well.

 

Either way though I remember in that war against the Nids The Ultramaines lost about 2 thirds their number (Including the entire first company as well was it?) which is a huge loss.

 

 

 

Sisters and BAngels don't really synergise all that well, tactically. Thematically, sure, but when you're working in a points constraint, Sisters are simply better at bringing more bolters, flamers and meltas and doing more with them, while BAngels are more forgiving because of the resilience that I4 provides.

 

Personally where as they don't match on lore they do match in play style.

Thats why you could consider fielding them as a successor of your own creation better made to fit said lore, personally I'll stick with Black Templars but the option is there.

Besides the extra power of Death Company as religious Fanatics or Sanguonary Guard As Winged Seraphim sent to guide Celestine into battle May be a better honour guard than she currently has.

[*Furyou Miko]

I think that because they do the same thing too much, there's no point including both.

 

 

Anyway, remember that while you'll tend to get more Sisters in any one place than Marines, there are still more Marines in the galaxy over-all. It's just that a normal Sisters deployment will be at roughly Company strength, while Marines rarely deploy at greater than squad strength.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Well since the part 2 of the campaign is BA and Eldar Vs Nids it may be a continued sad time for us, I was hoping at least for a mention. :P

 

Not entirely true, I like terminators, bikes, land raiders and drop pods too much not to mention Dreads. 

 

I'll have to review the old sources there as I am sure there is a GW publication that confirms some sisters orders are hundreds of thousands strong so there is not way I beleive that marines out number Sisters.

[Leif Bearclaw]

while Marines rarely deploy at greater than squad strength.

Uh, got a citation for that? While it's true that Marines don't always deploy in full companies, I have never seen it said anywhere in the fluff that single squad deployments are the normal, standard deployment size for the Adeptus Astartes. Because that would be incredibly stupid.

[*Furyou Miko]

There are six Major Orders, each one is, as of the last published (non third-party) numbers, in 999.M41, roughly seventy to a hundred thousand in number.

 

There are numerous Minor Orders, but they only number between one and a hundred Sisters.

 

The contradictory source is Dark Heresy, which states that there are something like sixty thousand Sisters (a whole major order, by GW fluff!) in the Calixis sector.

 

Uh, got a citation for that? While it's true that Marines don't always deploy in full companies, I have never seen it said anywhere in the fluff that single squad deployments are the normal, standard deployment size for the Adeptus Astartes. Because that would be incredibly stupid.

Off the top of my head, IA4 has a single squad of Red Scorpions deployed to assist Inquisitor Lok. Then there's the Movie Marines document GW released years ago, the whole concept of the Deathwatch, standard Space Hulk procedure (not the Blood Angel 'deploy a whole chapter' procedure, the normal one)... That's without going into the Black Library stuff such as Brothers of the Snake, Salvation Reach, any of the Space Wolf novels (Wraight or King), Nightbringer...

 

You know, the whole 'one marine is worth a thousand mortal soldiers' thing that fanboys trot out every time someone questions the Marines' abilities.

 

And, of course, the way Astartes are special forces, for whom often deploying more than a squad is a good way to get mission failure.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Uh, got a citation for that? While it's true that Marines don't always deploy in full companies, I have never seen it said anywhere in the fluff that single squad deployments are the normal, standard deployment size for the Adeptus Astartes. Because that would be incredibly stupid.

Off the top of my head, IA4 has a single squad of Red Scorpions deployed to assist Inquisitor Lok. Then there's the Movie Marines document GW released years ago, the whole concept of the Deathwatch, standard Space Hulk procedure (not the Blood Angel 'deploy a whole chapter' procedure, the normal one)... That's without going into the Black Library stuff such as Brothers of the Snake, Salvation Reach, any of the Space Wolf novels (Wraight or King), Nightbringer...

 

You know, the whole 'one marine is worth a thousand mortal soldiers' thing that fanboys trot out every time someone questions the Marines' abilities.

 

And, of course, the way Astartes are special forces, for whom often deploying more than a squad is a good way to get mission failure.

 

OK, IA4 (unless they retconned it in 2nd edition) had far more than 1 squad of Scorpions. There were three Terminator squads alone, plus something like 40 Tacticals. So we're looking at a standard sub-company deployment of approx 50+ Marines there.

 

The Movie Marines just goes to show how Marines 'should' be on an individual level. Where one squad is more than enough to defeat a standard 1500 point army of less than a hundred dudes. It has no bearing on how many Marines are deployed to warzones in the fluff, as the fluff doesn't need the Marines to merely defeat single 1500 point 40k armies to win interstellar wars.

 

By their very definition, the Deathwatch are special, so they cannot be used to prove what is standard practice for the Apeptus Astartes as a whole.

 

Standard Space Hulk procedure? Every time Marines board Hulks I can recall they've used multiple squads (Space Hulk, Cain, fall of the Crimson Consuls). Because sending single, unsupported squads into one of the deadliest arenas Marines will ever encounter is not very smart (not saying it would never happen, but there's no evidence to suggest it's standard practice, rather than 'this is all we've got and the job needs doing').

 

As for Black Library. Yes there are examples of single squad deployments (especially in Brothers of the Snake). But it is not established that this is the standard operating procedure. The King SW books have very specific, special circumstances for such small deployments (escort friendly Inquisitor, unique relationship with Navigator House, and even then, there's more than a single squad of Wolfblade). As for Wraight? Yes, Blood of Asaheim has a single pack deployed, as part of an overstretched Chapter, on what was meant to be a housekeeping mission, with little/no active combat. If they'd known about the Death Guard invasion, do you really thing a single Pack would've been the response? As for Nightbringer, I don't know where you're getting that from, the entire 4th Company was sent to Pavonis. The point being, that while BL has examples of single squad deployments, they are vastly outnumbered by larger Marines deployments, so he Black Library as a whole doesn't support the proposition that single squads on the most common size of Marine deployment.

As for the 'one Marine is worth a Thousand normal troops' thing, that's fine, but doesn't prove than squads are the standard size Marine deployment. After all, it takes more than 5-10 thousand troops to win a planetary war.

 

Yes the Astartes are meant to be special forces. But, like it or not, the fluff insists on treating them more like an expeditionary force, fully capable of engaging the enemy without reliance on outside support, so default 10 man deployments is nonsensical in that context. Also, what do you mean by 'deployment'? I'm using it to mean, 'forces sent to World X to prosecute war', and so, even for special forces deployments, single squads doesn't make sense, as the impact a single spec ops team can have on an interstellar war is rather limited.

 

Funnily enough, I don't actually disagree with the initial point; that Sisters make larger deployments than Marines, only the numbers involved. The most common Marine deployment appears to somewhere between 50 and 150 Marines, smaller than a 200 strong Soroitas Commendery.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Well as I said Furyou Miko, I have read differently from GW publications so I will have to try and refind the source to reference when I get a minute.

 

In regards to marine strenght they deploy to the strength needed but most documented conflicts involove 50 Marines up over plus armour.

Yes a few novels will mention fewer but thats because it is more skirmish but these rarely follow the exact lore, James Swallows work on the other hand about blood angels is horribly innacrate and to say nothing of the lore the way he has wrote it not only do you have 500+ marine deployments but in addition the BA chapter seems to number in the thousands.

Thats why I never treat novels as a reliable source as they have too much poetic licence in them.

[*Furyou Miko]

Well. I'm willing to be wrong about Marines. I don't pay them that much attention most of the time... but Danse, I'd love to get that reference from you about Sisters.

[Jacinda]

Most sources about the number of Sisters of Battle are vague and often conflict with earlier sources. The current codex says at their foundation, the Sisters of Battle comprised of 2 convents, each with tens of thousands of members; and they grew from there. The 2 major Orders became 4 and then 6. We can assume each is "tens of thousands" strong at their convent.

 

Also scattered through the galaxy are " subsidiary convents" with upwards to 1000 Sisters of Battle each. How many of these are there? One per sector? One per planetary system? Who knows. Could be a dozen, could be a million.

 

And then there are the minor orders which are "numerous." This next point bares a quote. Sorry for the size.

-- Although the original six Orders are by far the most numerous and active of the Orders Militant, there are numerous other Orders Militant – the Orders Minoris – []. These Orders Militant vary in size, from barely a hundred Battle Sisters to a thousand, [].

The same word "numerous" which states the size of a major order in Sisters is also used to describe how many minor orders exist. If there are 50,000 Sisters of Battle in a major order, does that mean there are 50,000 minor orders? Each with 100 to 1000 Sisters? 50,000 minor orders with 500 Sisters means 25,000,000 Sisters of Battle spread throught the minor orders.

 

 

The current rulebook is a bit more conservative. Each major order having several thousand sisters and "many" lesser orders of a few hundred each. How many is "many?"

-- Every concentration of the Ministorum’s power must be defended, and a force of Battle Sisters will be present to guard every shrine and fortress-cathedral in the Imperium

That's many! I would even say ... millions.

 

 

My minimal estimate:

6 Major Orders with 20,000 Battle Sisters = 120,000

"Many" minor orders with "a few hundred" each = 100 minor orders with 300 members = 30,000

All told, 150,000 minimum.

 

Maximum estimate? 50 million would be reasonable. Half a billion, tops.

[*Furyou Miko]

Which does put them above Marines... fair enough. I haven't actually run through the maths in a while.

[BitsHammer]

Having done my own math for the Imperium, I stand by the idea that there should be at least 10 Billion Sisters (compared to the 16 Quadrillion Imperial Citizens my math gave me the percentage is still quite low comparitively. If you applied that percentage to the USA's Pop you'd get 3 Sisters per state). 

 

Granted, the new fluff hasn't invalidated this stance, and it's my own personal opinion, but it's also my head canon. :P

[*Furyou Miko]

From what do you derive that ten billion number? Given that only the children of dead officers and nobles go to the Schola Progenum, of which only the most militant are considered for the Tempestus/Commissariat/Sororitas, of which only the most faithful go into the Commissariat/Sororitas, of which only the females go into the Sororitas.