A Storm Gathers - list building 3.0

[Frater Cornelius]

Heyo everyone. I consider this little thread here special. I know that in the end this is just another theoryhammer list building thread, but bear with me.

 

I started Eldar. I have build a 1750 force to derp around with. It is fun. I like it. The aesthetics are refreshing and I have already done some conversions that made the Eldar Cheesemaster drool. You know, the guy who played Eldar since 3rd and has seen all there is (except he has not :D).

But it all felt kind of ... distant. I like the army but I like them from the building, painting and playing perspective, but that is it.

 

But then there are my Wolves... I am currently going through a bad situation in life. It is looking fairly grim and I am a bit scared of what to come. But when I look at my Space Wolves I see valour, honour and strength and I always feel encouraged. I feel encouraged to finally finish them and see my problems solved and forgotten.

 

So, in honour of that, let us make this the most hardcore list-building thread on this side of Fenris!

 

I have now tried the majority of list variants, pure, shoot, melee, allies. I have played Eldar now I saw what makes them so great in this current meta. My understanding has grown even further.

 

Right now my SW/UM force is the most powerful I have, but I feel that focusing so much on TWC is not all that great. It is strong, but I still feel that SM units need synergy instead of numbers. Their units are too expensive to spam but many units work well together.

 

Now I am open to it all, all possible battle brothers, formations and everything there is. We are looking at alpha strike + second turn follow up pressure + psychic support. I found those elements is what SW and by extension SM do best.

[Nadir]

While ago I was considering Wolf Scouts as an alpha strike, cheap anti MC unit. With sniper rifles of course. You can put them almost wherever you want to on the field, just to be in the right place, and avoid MC to hide behind the bushes. They should be quite save even without camo cloaks, because opponent will have a tone of deep striking units to take care off.

[mcpolle]

Great, am going to join in on this, as I love my Wolves, but also feel they lack that little something. What I used in a 1500 pt one day tourney last weekend, was a Cullexux Assassin, and i can tell you, he is a great answer to our problems with Invis, and Cursed earth and the likes. 

I also took a knight, just an Errant, to see how good he was, i was very impressed with both models, the rest of my army, was 3 drop pods, with Arjack, Ulrick and 5 WG with combi plasma, 10 Claws, with a flamer, and a unit of 5 Grey hunters, with a melta gun, and 4 TWC.

 

But going into a 1850 tourney, I can see we are falling behind the likes of Tau, Eldar, and also Necrons, thank Russ, there is a new codex coming, because the Necrons just now, are pretty darned good,

 

But anyway, how do we build a really rock solid list , I really feel that our Psykers, are not that good, and that a couple of TWC characters, or Ulrick are better,

 

Personally I really have been playing the heck out of Ulrick and Arjack, with the WG, and they rock, BUT.... I feel we could do better. I really do like our TWC, and Iron priests backing them up, I also feel our flyer is strong as well, good anti tank capabilities, also good at getting the hurt on a Knight.

 

So Immer, is a Knight a viable addition, or are you not playing with one?? You say you are open to ideas, but does your meta allow them??

 

But I am sure on board, to making this list as hard as nails, 

 

One thing I do feel is that we need some kind of way of taking down flyers, and or Wave serpents, both of these things, really do give me head aches.

 

 

 

Polle

[Frater Cornelius]

Most tournaments ban Superheavies, unless we're talking massive GTs.

 

I am considering the Culexus actually. Those 140 points seem to be well spent, even against armies without psykers. That beast can take apart a unit of Paladins without fear of retaliation. Daemons, Eldar and even Tiggy are bummed against that guy and he is damn hard to kill due to attacks and shots directed at him are resolved as WS1 and BS1. He is very sticky.

I am actually second-guessing my decision to put too much money into Grav. There are other ways of dealing with MCs. I am currently rethinking my previous concepts with my new found knowledge and see if I can come up with something else that could potentially be better.

[Sohail187]

Right now my SW/UM force is the most powerful I have, but I feel that focusing so much on TWC is not all that great. It is strong, but I still feel that SM units need synergy instead of numbers. Their units are too expensive to spam but many units work well together.

 

I also 2nd this. Wolves alone when list building no matter how clever you think you are being with the special rules we have do not cut it. However those small battle brother allies just add so much to your army. 

 

If not UM then Champions of Fenris suppliment + white scars strong! very Strong. White scars bikers is your alpha strike as long as you making use of the scout move!, and follow up attack is your sw army.

However again I agree with Immer, i think UM + SW is the strongest way to build at the moment. Tigi + cents in a space wolf drop pod... is just insanely good. 
 

[Frater Cornelius]

The reason I am looking for alternate ways is because tiggy + cents + massacre pod clocks in at 480 points without troops tax. Deadly but expensive. Too expensive.

 

I am currently looking into an alternate list building philosophy. You see, SM are by extension one of the most fragile armies. Their T4/5 means little next to the insane S6/7 spam these days. Their high PPM means lower numbers. They have a decent save but with that many wounds flowing it, it hardly matters. Also, Bolters are rather weak compared to what you find on Warp Spiders or Dire Avengers.

 

So, I will not bother with defense. Screw those silly notions of save and subtle gameplay. Screw strength through numbers. We are talking sheer, single-minded, balls-crushing offensive. That force needs to come in like a lightning bolt.

 

Eldar and Tau have both one thing in common. They deal good pressure and can resist alpha strikes to some degree, but they break under pressure. They can stop 1-2 units threatening them T1 but when they need to consistently deal with units throughout multiple turns that are directly in their face, they crumble.

 

This is why I am looking into pods, TDA and bikes as Grav platform as opposed to Cents. I may even screw grav at that points and switch to SS/CP + TH/CP TDA and the Culexus to deal with MCs.

I am also looking at the Damocles Command Rhino. Orbital Bombardment is nice and the Rhino itself offers consistent and safe deep striking action, that is key to having high pressure across the board.

[Sohail187]

Ye i understand exactly what you mean and that is why i wrote that sicaran army list with chapter master ect..ect to see if anything else can work but it will be hard tbh. One thing i can say though I have been using the Damochles command rhino for nearly 6-7 months now, and it really really really is the best 75 points i have ever spent. Now you got to keep one thing in mind with the damochles orbital bombardment. It is different to the orbirtal from the chapter master. The chapter masters orbital bombardment always scatters full distance, but the damochles doesnt. Reason for this is, if you look at the entry the item does not have the "orbital special rule" where as the chapter master does :D so you -BS. 

Yes it is still HIT AND MISS, but i fire it last after all other things have been shot to finish something off. Yes once it has fired its weapon, people might think that it has no other job, but it still provides 1+ - 1 to reserves!! and you can use it to capture objectives. Move 12, flat out 6, 3inch objective range 21 inches!! ill take that.

[Ethzor]

I feel like the biggest problem while building list consisting of Deep Striking units, be they Pods or TDA, is the amount to deep strike and the amount to have on the table. I for one often get "cool" ideas for a list just to discover when playing that the idea has a great flaw in it. Is it really viable to have a null deployment, can half of your army survive the first and second turn while the rest trickle in?

I think that all the Astartes armies have a on-the-table disadvantage due to the high PPM that what we supposedly do best is not viable against most other armies. Sure if you could Pod in your entire army the first turn you would be able to emulate what sounds so damn awesome in the fluff and books, but on the table top I think we cant allow ourselves this kind of flair

I think we as an army need the most thinking and careful approach when we come to list building and sadly all those cool ideas need to be held back to your friendly games and fantasies.

 

/Ethzor

[Frater Cornelius]

Actually, null deployment is damn awesome since you lost the 50% requirement you had in 6ed. What you are essentially doing is robbing the opponent of his first turn of shooting.

 

The real problem is having to choose, I am afraid. There are not enough points in 1500-1850 to get in TWC, Bikes and TDA. We have to decide on a strategy. Is it going to be deep strike focused? Or is it going to be field advance? There is enough points to have two of the 3 unit options given (TDA, TWC, Bikes). Now, I know some of you will throw caution and thought to the wind and shout 'TWC', but I want you to go deep down and think. Is it your reason or your favouritism speaking?

[Z00Z]

I'm thinking along the lines of an outflanking LR with an assault focus unit inside, definitely Arjac with others. Would love a discussion around that and its merits as we ont have a lot of AV14 options out there. But if it feasible for its huge points investment, what would the unit inside it look like to guarantee at least getting all the pts back?

[Frater Cornelius]

If I have an assault unit inside the LR, I want it on the field T1 and advance with the best of it so that a T2 charge can happen. Arjac's Super Shield Bro's (get it? :D) are a fine formation, although they cost 615 with the setup I would use.

To be honest, a Land Raider has crossed my mind several times. On the one hand, I know how fast it can explode against the likes of Wraith Knights and Imperial Knights. On the other hand, I know how durable they are in almost every other scenario. I guess the one thing that definitely holds me back from getting one is that it requires a 500 point commitment before it will be any good. That is an awful lot of points to lose when the opponent has hot dice and a stray lascannon.

 

However, a Land Raider would only be feasible in an advancing army with 75%-100% board presence at the start. If the focus will be a reserve army, then a Raider has no room in there.

[mcpolle]

Thatiis always the problem with a Land raider. One lucky shot, and it's gone. And that's a lot of points

 

There has not been a lot of talk about trying Storm wolves. If we can do something to help them arrive. They have really good firepower anand if you buy them as dedicated transports. They are super scoring. I played a tournament with both of our flyers, and was pretty impressed by them. Those backed up with some TWC with an IP or two ththen we can grab a Cullexus, which can also fly around in one of the flyers. Now what else to ally in? I find that 3 Cents Og Tiggy is an expensive unit, and they are so small that they do not last long.

 

Anyway. What do you guys think about the flyers.? Worth taking a couple of them.?

[Sohail187]

Thatiis always the problem with a Land raider. One lucky shot, and it's gone. And that's a lot of points

 

There has not been a lot of talk about trying Storm wolves. If we can do something to help them arrive. They have really good firepower anand if you buy them as dedicated transports. They are super scoring. I played a tournament with both of our flyers, and was pretty impressed by them. Those backed up with some TWC with an IP or two ththen we can grab a Cullexus, which can also fly around in one of the flyers. Now what else to ally in? I find that 3 Cents Og Tiggy is an expensive unit, and they are so small that they do not last long.

 

Anyway. What do you guys think about the flyers.? Worth taking a couple of them.?

The flyer is to expensive a couple if WAY TO expensive. 450+ points sitting and waiting for turn 2?. 

[Frater Cornelius]

If flyer then either 1-2 UM Stormtalons with either Tiggy or Damocles or an empty Stormwolf with Damocles. No dead weight and solid fire support as well as reserve manipulation.

[mcpolle]

What exactly is the Damocles, have not seen this before??

 

Polle

[Frater Cornelius]

Damocles Command Rhino is a 11/11/11 Fast Rhino with a 12" beacon, gives you +1 or -1 on your reserve rolls, which ever you desire and has an Orbital Bombardment. Costs 75 points. Rules can be found in IA2 v2.

[Frater Cornelius]

I have finished the first draft for a pure-ish SW reserve list.

 

2 Options.

 

First one:

 

 

Wolf Lord

• RA, SS, TWM, KBS, FCT

 

Damocles Command Rhino

 

Iron Priest

• TWM

+ 4 Cyber Wolves

 

5 WG TDA

• 3x SS/CP, 2x TH/CP

 

5 WG TDA

• 3x SS/CM, 2x TH/CM

 

Murderfang

+ Drop Pod w/ Deathwind Launcher

 

Lone Wolf

• TDA, Chain Fist, CM

 

Lone Wolf

• TDA, Chain Fist, CM

 

6 TWC

• 6 CCW, 6 Pistols

 

Drop Pod

• Deathwind Launcher

 

Drop Pod

• Deathwind Launcher

 

Sicaran Battle Tank

• Dozer Blade, Legacy: Schizm of Mars

 

1750 points

 

At 1850 I can get Arjac to solo deep strike or something.

 

 

 

Second one:

 

 

Wolf Lord

• RA, SS, TWM, KBS, FCT

 

Iron Priest

• TWM

+ 4 Cyber Wolves

 

5 WG TDA

• 3x SS/CP, 2x TH/CP

 

5 WG TDA

• 3x SS/CM, 2x TH/CM

 

Murderfang

+ Drop Pod w/ Deathwind Launcher

 

6 TWC

• 6 CCW, 6 Pistols

 

Drop Pod

• Deathwind Launcher

 

Drop Pod

• Deathwind Launcher

 

Sicaran Battle Tank

• Dozer Blade, Legacy: Schizm of Mars

 

Assassins

• Culexus Assassin

 

1675 points

 

 

 

This is rather similar to my 5ed SW list. A bit of flexible reserves and a bit of field presence. This is as far I will go pure SW without including Formations. I will try to make a list with Arjac's Super Shield Bros as well as an alternate SW/SM list that is not my usual SW/UM but rather SW/Red Hunters.

[mcpolle]

Ok, a few questions on list 1,

 

The Lone wolves, do they have TDA on??

What kind of results have you had with the Murderfang, the games I have had, it gets downed very easily as its only I4,

No shields or fists on the TWC? How come?

Are the TDA units in the pods??

No assassin??

 

Are the rules for the Sicaran also in IA 12

 

Polle

[Frater Cornelius]

Ok, a few questions on list 1,

 

The Lone wolves, do they have TDA on??

What kind of results have you had with the Murderfang, the games I have had, it gets downed very easily as its only I4,

No shields or fists on the TWC? How come?

Are the TDA units in the pods??

No assassin??

 

Are the rules for the Sicaran also in IA 12

 

Polle

 

Yes, they have TDA. I added it to the list.

I have had decent experience with him. If he lands in cover he can survive quite a bit. He will be useless against some armies due to his AV12, but he is mainly a tarpit breaker. Most of the time he will drop T2 anyway.

I prefer my TWC cheap. They get 6 rending attacks at I4 with WS5. Giving them fists reduces the attacks and initiative and adds 50% more for the model. I do not think that it is cost effective. I have had the most success running them naked.

I find SS quite overrated on TWC since I only ever saw them die to massed armour saves anyway.

TDA use the pods, yes.

An Assassin is included in List 2. I skipped him in list 1 due to point constraints.

 

Sicaran is also in IA2 v2

[mcpolle]

Seems like I am going to have to buy IA 2, silly question, but is that Imperial armour 2, v2?

 

Interesting on holding the TWC naked, can see it saves points, and you have the IP to tank for them.

 

Would be great to get Arjack in the list, but its difficult to get him in the pod, no place for him;-( unless you go with 4 termies.

 

Have no idea what the Sicaren can do, or the price of it, also can see you are using the Fenris supplement, do not have that either.

 

Still feel a stormwolf would help out.

 

Polle

[mcpolle]

Well, I made a list, but when it copied it over, it was pretty unreadable, Immer, how are you printing those lists out??

[Frater Cornelius]

I type all my list by hand, don't be a lazy bum! :D

 

And please use [spoiler#] list [/spoiler#] (without the #) to avoid bloating the thread.

[mcpolle]

me. Lazy bum... Fair enough.

 

And wondered how you did that spoiler thingy.

 

Polle

[wulfgar hammerfist]

Personally, I like list 2 better. It has a good mix of units and will force your opponent to pick his poison. Does he want 10 TDAWG and Murderfang running around his backfield or does he want TWC deathstar hitting his lines untouched? If you're bumping up to 1850, perhaps a couple of Deathstorm pods would be beneficial, especially against horde armies.

[Z00Z]

What are thoughts on bringing 2 rifle dreads. With the sicaran it will add significant dakka at range and can double as AA?

 

Pts wise is it worth it?