Frater Cornelius Posted November 15, 2014 Author Share Posted November 15, 2014 It is not worth because of AV12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 15, 2014 Author Share Posted November 15, 2014 There is 3 options in my eyes. 1) TWC + Centurions (similar to what I am running right now with SW/UM) 2) TWC + TDA (things like Arjac, WG TDA, Murderfang, Damocles, Culexus, combi weapons, deep strike and melee) 3) TWC + Bikes (Grav bikes, not WG Bikes) 4) TWC + ranged fire support (We are talking SM primary detachment and either COF or allied SW, bring a TWC blob, a Stormwolf and then spam stuff like Sternguard pod, Thunderfire Cannons and other shooty things) I do not think there is a way around the TWC. If am running TDA I might cut the IP, but I do not know any unit in the SW or SM codex that can put up as much pressure. The question is which one of those 3 above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcpolle Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 With version 3 of above, how about going WS prim, and using 2 Storm Talons, good against Wave serpents and knights, with movement, getting in their sides. Just been looking at some lists, just was not sure if Karo so Khan and the CM should be in the WS side f things, thinking the scout move and the Orbital bombardment. Polle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 15, 2014 Author Share Posted November 15, 2014 If you are going WS primary, then both Smashface and Khan. Smashface tanks and Khan provides Scout and access the to ever so important Command Squad. However, I am considering Red Hunters instead. The Chapter tactic is really appealing to me. I mean, Scout is nice but most players bring infiltrating road blocks or servo skulls. Skilled Rider is nice but I'd rather not jink at all. S5 HoW is okay, but I do not need bikes in melee. Passing Terrain checks is the only thing that is truly beneficial, but I am ready to give that up for Red Hunters. Think about it. You can give your Grav Command squad or Thunderfire Cannon Intercept at the start of the enemy's turn to stop alpha strike right in it's tracks. You can give Intercept to two units when we has T2 reserves. You can give Command Squad and another unit Skyfire T2/T3 to bring down that FMC with Grav shots. You will only need it once anyway. You can give Thunderfire Cannon Tank-Hunter to open up that transport or when Smashface tries to kill that Knight with his Hammer. So many options! If I go Red Hunters Primary, I would go for Smashface + Captain or probably just a Captain with Shield Eternal to get Command Squad and same me 200-ish points. After that it is 2 Thunderfire Cannons, a Stormtalon, Grav bike troops, Sicaran with Schizm of Mars and if I have the points I would get Scout Bikes and a Land Speeder Storm to cap stuff. On the SW side I would go for Wolf Lord on TWM, SS, RA, Black Death and Helm of Durfast (I can not get COF relics and bonuses since they are allied), 5-ish TWC dudes, an IP with 4 dogs and minimal Blood Claws I presume. I might drop Stormtalon and something else to get the 5 BC a Stormwolf transport to deal with flying stuff, or maybe just a Pod to land on an objective. I think this idea has merits. So we are either talking a 90% field presence TWC + Bike army with fire support RH/SW or a SW/OA reserve army. I will get 2 lists up soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 16, 2014 Author Share Posted November 16, 2014 Okay, I have prepared a little something. It will be a wall of text, but I tried to make it as informative and easy to read as possible. Enjoy! First up, I have created several incarnations of a pure SW list with FW support. List 1 (lowest manpower, greatest melee prowess): Wolf Lord • RA, SS, TWM, KBS, FCT, MB Iron Priest • TWM + 4 Cyber Wolves Iron Priest • TWM 5 WG TDA • 3x SS/CP, 2x TH/CP 5 WG TDA • 3x SS/CM, 2x TH/CM Murderfang + Drop Pod w/ Deathwind Launcher 5 TWC • 5 CCW, 5 Pistols, 1 MB Drop Pod • Deathwind Launcher Drop Pod • Deathwind Launcher Sicaran Battle Tank • Dozer Blade, Legacy: Schizm of Mars Assassins • Culexus 1750 points Two pods land T1, preferably on objectives. Deathwind act as horde control and to kill MSU units that I do not want to waste firepower on, something like Eldar Jetbikes. TDA have great melee prowess and will delete one unit each with ranged firepower. TWC advance and have solid survivability and an S10 character. List 2 (highest manpower, greatest ranged potential): Wolf Lord • RA, SS, TWM, KBS, FCT Damocles Command Rhino 5 WG TDA • 3x SS/CP, 2x TH/CP 5 WG TDA • 3x SS/CM, 2x TH/CM Murderfang + Drop Pod w/ Deathwind Launcher 10 Grey Hunters • 2 Meltas + Drop Pod w/ Deathwind Launcher 10 Grey Hunters • 2 Meltas + Drop Pod w/ Deathwind Launcher 5 TWC • 4 CCW, 5 Pistols, 1 Power Maul Sicaran Battle Tank • Dozer Blade, Legacy: Schizm of Mars 1750 points This bring the greatest manpower and firepower. While it lacks any S10, I have enough Deathwind and Bolters to threaten any Horde and a respectable amount of special weapon shots to delete the biggest threats at range without fear of counter attacks. The TDA have the option to deploy on the field instead of Deep Strike if I am facing alpha strike. They add target saturation and solid counter offensive. Damocles is there to shoot his Orbital Bombardment and ensure that TDA arrive on time and safely. I skipped the Assassin, but there is an option to add him instead of Murderfang and buy a FA pod for a TDA. Less melee prowess but very solid tarpit and anti-psyker unit. The Assassin also has the option to enter the pod. I am gravitating towards the Assassin, but I have no included him yet because I never tried him. There would be a third list, where I replace the TDA with PAWG and fill the FA lot with Swiftclaws for increased capping prowess, but the low survivability is not worth it in the end. This is my stab at pure SW. I am actually gravitating towards List 2 - Assassin variant, as it adds great flexibility and damage output. Now we talk about allies though. I have created a pure Red Hunters list... holy Emperor. That list makes Ultramarines look like amateurs when it comes to tactical flexibility. That list is the absolute killer. Have a look Red Hunters: Chapter Master • Artificer Armour, Thunder Hammer, Shield Eternal, Bike, Auspex Librarian ML1 • Bike Command Squad • Apothecary, 4 Grav guns, Bikes Damocles Command Rhino • Dozer Blade 8 Bikes • 2 Grav Guns + Trike w/ Multimelta 8 Bikes • 2 Grav Guns + Trike w/ Multimelta Stormtalon • TLAsC, Skyhammer ML Stormtalon • TLAsC, Skyhammer ML Thunderfire Cannon Thunderfire Cannon Sicaran Battle Tank • Legacy: Schizm of Mars 1746 points First, the basics. Chapter Master is there to tank. His Auspex gives the enemy -1 on his cover save. Librarian is there to unlock the Command Squad and roll on Divination. I will mainly use Prescience but I won't say no to some other powers. I kept him extra cheap. The Bikes will all combat squad. I will have 2 units of 5 with 2 grav each and 2 units of 3 with a trike each. That is 4 fast units that all have Obj.Sec. Damocles is mainly there to have the Stormtalons arrive in time. The Talons are tailored to spew out as many S6 and S7 as possible at a reasonable price. They are my pseudo-wave serpents. Thunderfire Cannons are there for horde control and transport busting. They are just amazing Sicaran is fairly self-explanatory. Here comes the crux. Because of their Chapter Tactic, they are so extremely flexible, it ain't funny anymore. Facing alpha strike? Give Intercept to the Command Squad, Melta Trike or TFC, depending what kind of unit is the biggest threat, and annihilate it. Facing T2 deep strikes? Give 2 units Intercept. Hm, Tyranid Skyblight? No problem, give Command Squad Skyfire and a Stormtalon Monster Hunter T2. Auspex gives the FMC -1 on jink. 12 Grav shots will shoot it down easily. Then we have a Stormtalon with Monster Hunter and another Stormtalon as well as the Sicaran and other bikes with TL-Bolters. The sky will be clear. Or maybe you are facing some nasty flyers? No problem. Give Tank-Hunter to Stormtalons and Skyfire to Sicaran. Sicaran has Tank Hunter due to his legacy and Skyfire and ignores jink. Stormtalons with Tank-Hunter will also take most flyers apart. Oh crap, Imperial Knights! No problem, Stormtalon circle around to avoid shield and get Tank Hunter and Sicaran has it already. 2 out of 3 units will shoot at a non-shielded side and bring him down. Then add 2 Orbital Bombardments. One from Chapter Master, who reduces cover by 1 with Auspex, and from Damocles. As you can see, the list is pure insanity. I must try it out as soon as possible. But for all the hype about how flexible it is, it has its flaws. Most notably: it will not stand up against consistent pressure. I can use the Chapter Tactic once. After that, I am naked. If there are more threats than I can deal with or if I have cold dice, I will be screwed. What this list needs is some elements that offers consistent pressure and good damage output. This will create a list that has good pressure and that can go full-retard for 1 turn and delete the biggest threats so that the opponent will crack under pressure. This combination is what I am working on right now. While I will almost definitely jump on the TWC bandwagon, I need to regard this with a clear mind. Any suggestions are welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcpolle Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Red Hunters, are they also IA? I ask because we do not use IA in Denmark. I think we have one place that allows everything. Otherwise we do no get to use it. Which is both good and bad. Anyway, I like list 2, if you had the Assassin. Think he brings more to the table instead of the Dread. Will depend on what you play against, to how much you get out of him, but he is a solid answer to things you have nothing against right now. Also like the Red Hunters list, again for me. Depending on if they are IA or not. But would be good to see some games with the lists. So we can see how they are playing. I hear what you are saying about WS, and fully understand it. Was also considering Raven wing. But thoughttthat we S a little perverse, as them and Wolves do not play well together, they kinda hate each other Polle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 16, 2014 Author Share Posted November 16, 2014 Yes, it is a FW Chapter Tactic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Luck Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 Okay, whilst you've sold me on how useful the Red Hunters chapter tactics are, there are two main gripes with it. 1) You have to activate it at the start of a turn. Whilst not a huge issue, this means the enemy can position units away from your declared interceptors. Still useful, as it'll prevent enemies alpha striking units close to the interceptors - but just a thought. And the other rules are still solid. 2) They are the Red Hunters - the SM chapter that attacked Fenris under the command of the Inquisition... Even using them as SWs with RH tactics, it just feels wrong. Agree with you that list two seems more solid. Is there a way to get the points required for the assassin without dropping Murderfang however? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 17, 2014 Author Share Posted November 17, 2014 Yes. I dropped the Damocles, FA pod and a TDA unit to get in a mounted IP with 4 dogs (TWC feel naked without) and Murderfang in a Deathwind pod. This leaves me with 3 pods and 1 deep striker. Losing Damocles sucks but I do have greater power on the field. There may be a way to cram one in if I remove all Deathwind upgrades and the 4th dog from IP... yeah, lets go with that. Wolf Lord • RA, SS, TWM, KBS, FCT Damocles Command Rhino Iron Priest • TWM + 3 Wolves 5 WG TDA • 3x SS/CP, 2x TH/CP Murderfang + Drop Pod w/ Stormbolter 10 Grey Hunters • 2 Meltas + Drop Pod w/ Stormbolter 10 Grey Hunters • 2 Meltas + Drop Pod w/ Stormbolter 5 TWC • 5 CCW, 5 Pistols Sicaran Battle Tank • Dozer Blade, Legacy: Schizm of Mars Culexus Assassin 1750 points The one question is whether Murderfang offers greater use than a TDA unit. He will not be able to up against a Wraithknight due to a WK having I5 but he can take any other MC apart without much trouble. He is also a very good horde breaker. But TDA are good manpower and decent staying power. I will need to try it out. I have also created two more lists. One SW/UM and one SW/RH. I will post them some time later and see whether they live up or even surpass the SW/OA list here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcpolle Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 Well lets put it like this, your Dread is basically going to die to whatever it fights against, because it is I4, and only arm 12, so any random heavy weapon shot could also kill it off, so if it's a choice between the Dread and a unit of TDA, I know which I would choose, but play styles and meta differ, so.... Also think the TDA are much more tactical than the Dread., Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 17, 2014 Author Share Posted November 17, 2014 And cost around 100 points more. Murderfang can easily deal with annoying things like Plague Zombies, Conscripts, Guardsmen and other things I can not kill with shooting or elite melee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 18, 2014 Author Share Posted November 18, 2014 So, I have been thinking a bit. This list might seem a bit unusual for me, but it looks interesting. Wolf Lord - 220 • TWM, RA • Black Death, Helm of Durfast Iron Priest - 165 • TWM + 4 Wolves 5 Power Armour Wolf Guard - 140 • 5 Combi-Meltas (or Plasmas) 10 Grey Hunters - 210 • 2 Meltas + Drop Pod w/ Deathwind Launcher 10 Grey Hunters - 210 • 2 Meltas + Drop Pod w/ Deathwind Launcher 4 Thunderwolf Cavalry - 160 • 4 CCW, 4 Pistols Drop Pod - 50 • Deathwind Launcher 5 Long Fangs - 115 • 4 Heavy Bolters 5 Long Fangs - 155 • 4 Lascannons Sicaran Battle Tank - 165 • Dozer Blade • Legacy of Glory: Schizm of Mars Assassins: • Culexus - 140 1730 points When playing 1750 I can add a SS and MB to the TWC or Heavy Bolters on the Sicaran. When going up to 1850 I can add a TDA WGPL to the Long Fangs and more TWC, maybe even combi-meltas for GH. The fist surprise is that I play CAD. I figured that only 4 models benefit from WS5 here and a Drop Pod with Obj.Sec. that just lands on an objective and is a massive 'screw you' towards Land Speeder Storms, Eldar Jetbikes and all those dedicated cappers that can not remove an AV12 vehicle from the objective to score it. It requires actual shooting to remove it. Delicious! Also, I like Black Death + Helm of Durfast. I skipped SS because 15 points. I already have a 4++. And finally, COF forces me to roll on COF table because I do not get re-roll on rulebook warlord traits. I want to roll on the Personal Traits from now on. 2 gives my Warlord Furious Charge, 4 gives me a VP for each character killed by warlord in a challenge, 5 gives FnP and 6 gives IWND.. maybe not in that order but those are there. Amazing for a combat lord. The next curious addition are Long Fangs. I was looking for general combat units to keep up the fight next to a few specialists. I have TWC as close range generalists and the Sicaran as long-ranged one. Heavy Bolter LF are pretty cheap and will not attract much fire, but they deal with dedicated scoring units, hordes, light vehicles and low model count units very well. LC Fangs are to pressure MCs. They will draw more fire, but that means they will not shoot the TWC or GH. The PAWG Pod is in the FA slot just so that the Culexus has the option of entering. But most of the time, the PAWG will ride it. The rest seems fairly self explanatory. Here is a summary why I brought what unit: Wolf Lord + TWC + IP = close range general combat unit Sicaran Battle Tank = anti-Skimmer, makeshift anti flyer, general ranged unit Grey Hunters = anti-armour and anti infantry PAWG = 'problem' solvers (delete a tank, walker or super heavy and then die) Deathwind Pods = anti-horde, capping objectives LC LF = anti-tank and anti-MC HB LF = anti-light armour and anti-infantry, makeshift anti-light flyer and FMC Culexus = anti-psyker, backfield killer, elite units or MC killer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z00Z Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 now this is an interesting list, it has potential to unsettle and sufficient variability that the opponent will be wondering what the underlying strategy is. The only issue I see is the PAWG dont have a ride to get in close fast to 'delete' a problem unit. Im almost tempted to say drop a deathwind launcher and buy them a rhino. Thats smack on 1750 and will give them mobility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 18, 2014 Author Share Posted November 18, 2014 PAWG are going in the FA pod. I said that the only reason their ride is in FA is that the Culexus could potentially hijack it. Otherwise, they have their Deathwind pod to get to that Baneblade and blow it up, hopefully, while the Culexus infiltrates. The only scenario where the Culexus would take the pod is when there are no super-heavies there and I need to drop in precisely to remove Endurance, Invisibility or Shrouding from a unit, so it can be killed, and the Culexus has no option of infiltrating close enough. In all other cases, PAWG take pod and Culexus infiltrates. No mobility problems here :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donkalleone Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 What about Lucious Droppod for Murderfang? Cost the same as one a normal One with Deathwind Lanucher and Keeps the Murderfang save and Gives Shrouded for him and evrything behind it (its massive) . So dropping it in front of the enemy it can Block sight so TWC can run up and gives them exspecially in night fighting great saves (since u run them naked). Templates are on the internet if u wont to buy it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 18, 2014 Author Share Posted November 18, 2014 My problem with that strategy is that it gives the opponent too much time to react. It lands and stays there for a turn, when not disembarking. It gives the opponent time to gain distance and at that point, it is unlikely that Murderfang will catch up. Besides, getting MF means either losing an Obj.Sec. pod with meltas and good amount of bodies or a 5CM squad to deal with problems. Murderfang was initially there to deal with hordes, but Deathwind + HBLF do that just as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tylerw Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 I had a lot of fun and success last weekend with a list you MIGHT enjoy - it was 1K points, vs IG (he had 2 tanks, a transport with vets/flamers, and lots of HW teams or whatever they're called, with 3 lascannons and... 5ish autocannons? plus 1 unit of ratling snipers and 1 unit of 3 scout sents, his fun choices). Lone WolfUlrik WGBL - TW mount, Power Fist Dreadnought MM, PF with storm bolter Drop Pod w/ DW Missile Launcher GH x 102 Meltaguns Drop Pod GH X 5 (Ulrik rode in this unit) Razorback Drop Pod (For the Lone Wolf to ride in) Predator Heavy Bolter Sponsons Predator Lascannon Sponsons The drop pod units were allstars, either killing or tarpitting 2 tanks, 2 troop units, and the snipers. The deathwind ML... man, what a beast. The reasoning was that it might clear out potential tarpits so my dread could manhandle tanks, and boy did it ever. It managed to kill 3-4 figures, causing morale failure/fleeing table on turn 1. On turn 2 it took out a heavy weapon. The meltacrews cleaned up the armor, preventing it from really ever being relevant, while soaking up a bunch of dakka, both from the armor and the snipers. The WGBL did a nice job of running into the sentinels, killing 1 right away, then the other two the next turn, and ulrik and the razorback fellas didn't do much, but I built/utilized that unit really poorly. I had plenty of shooting from the predators, and that unit shouldn't have been so worried about moving 6" to get better shooting - instead of I should have been having it fly up the battlefield. When he finally got in assault range, Ulrik (and the GH in tow, sort of), mashed the Chimera singlehandedly, which was nuts to see. Anyway, as far as things I wanted you to look at - I loved the melta dread with the missile drop pod. The pod + LW was also a fairly cheap way to get a threatening figure into back lines, while bringing in my two "real" pods on turn one (and giving me to the option to hold one back in a conservative deployment on turn one as needed). The predators were fine shooting threats as well. The other stuff was just okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tylerw Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Also, returning from the Arjac thread - if you could keep it cheap enough, I'd love to get Arjac into the LW's pod-slot, but afaik you have to take 3 TDA to begin with, before you can even upgrade to get him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 18, 2014 Author Share Posted November 18, 2014 I feel your list is burdened by too much AV. Personally, I dislike relying on AV. But the ideas of the lists are similar ;) I am actually considering to drop the IP to get more TWC. I feel I get more mileage out of TWC. 1 IP with 4 dogs vs 4 TWC, I think I want to go for the TWC. However, the second TWC unit will be naked and no tank for it. On a related note, although I see the merits of Long Fangs and I NEED longer ranged support than 12"-24", I also want either second TWC unit or a beefed up 6 man TWC unit. I am preferring 2 units of TWC, but I am afraid that I will be lacking the ranged support. I consider this a solid core: Wolf Lord - 220 • TWM, RA • Black Death, Helm of Durfast 5 Power Armour Wolf Guard - 140 • 5 Combi-Meltas (or Plasmas) 10 Grey Hunters - 210 • 2 Meltas + Drop Pod w/ Deathwind Launcher 10 Grey Hunters - 210 • 2 Meltas + Drop Pod w/ Deathwind Launcher 4 Thunderwolf Cavalry - 160 • 4 CCW, 4 Pistols Drop Pod - 50 • Deathwind Launcher Sicaran Battle Tank - 165 • Dozer Blade • Legacy of Glory: Schizm of Mars Assassins: • Culexus - 140 1295 points Help me out a bit in here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tylerw Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Yea, I did over-do the AV role. It was with the concern that my opponent LOVES armor. I didn't want to see a 3-tank unit followed by a 2-tank unit or something silly! I would have been better with more dakka, less AV somewhere, possibly with flamers or heavy bolters somewhere in place of the las sponsons or the meltas or something, or swapping out the storm bolters on the dreadnought or other 2 drop pods, or even having a more powerful loadout on the Lone Wolf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nadir Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 To Immersturm: If you will go seckond, opponent just shoot everything on your TWC and lord... Even if he will survive (porbably he will), the unit will be cripled. Maybe something to give him a screen/ bullet magnet? Another TWC unit, or even LF as you said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 19, 2014 Author Share Posted November 19, 2014 The problem with another TWC unit that that I am lacking a second tank. I think it would be better to beef up thr current one to 6 dudes, 2 SS and 1 TH. LF... I do not know. I like the fire support but I they seem like a relic of a bygone age, too static and easily crippled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 but Immersturm , more Thunderwolves O- O is always the answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 19, 2014 Author Share Posted November 19, 2014 Indeed, more TWC is, but more UNITS is not ;) If I am tallking two units, I will need another IC to tank. Multiple TWC units also means that I need adequate ranged support. That are additional 200-300 points that are not shooting. Right now I have 2GH units. I might beef them up with a combi-weapon as well as a possible melee weapon, probably a fist. The idea is to draw fire away from the TWC blob. The combi-melta death drop will remain as will Sicaran. Those last 300-ish points are either another TWC squad and an IC (ending up with 2*4 TWC equipped and 2 ICs). Alternatively, ranged support. I feel safer with additional ranged options, although a second TWC unit has its charms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Luck Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 Could always upgrade the wolf guard to TDA. It's only 10pts per model with combi, gives a 2+/5++ and access to storm shields or power weapons. Turns them from a one trick suicide pony into an alpha strike that can remain as a durable generalist unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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