Is the autocannon our best weapon?

[irwit]

Hi all

So I am new to Astra Militarum but have ordered my first models, a unit of Death Korps, a Chimera and 3 Sentinels (I love the Sentinel Models!!!")

Anyway I am now trying to come up with a list and as much as I keep trying to find an alternative, I just seem to keep adding autocannons to EVERYTHING!

Heavy weapon squad? Autocannons,

Sentinels? Autocannons

Infantry and command squads? Autocannons

Taurox comes with a free twin linked autocannon :)

Im even tempted by the 4 shot twin linked leman russ autocannon!

The only things I am also finding I want are

Punisher cannons on Leman Russ and FW Vulture (which is twinlinked )

Wyvern Batterys, basically reroll everything

I'm tempted by the Executioner cannon on the Leman russ, Large ap2 blast.

Vetrans with meltaguns

Am I alone in seeing Autocannons as our best weapons? Is there a flaw I'm not seeing in fielding so many autocannons?

[WarriorFish]

Best is a subjective and relative term, but yes the autocannon is a good weapon. It occupies a neat middle ground, good strength and AP and two shots for a modest price make it a good option to have for Guard. Autocannons will do a good job tackling light armour such as transports and the number of shots lets them do things like glance medium armour to death. Not too shabby for turning on flyers too if you're in a pinch and battering down pesky skimmers, so when in doubt adding some more autocannons is usually a good idea as they can reliably do their job.

 

They also do a good job tackling infantry if you need a bit of support, though it's not an ideal use as you can usually do this better elsewhere. You can't dine on autocannons alone though, so I don't think you should go mad with them but that's not so much of a flaw given that anything will be bad taken to the extreme!

[irwit]

Agree with your comments,  however I feel that for units such as Infantry Squads (excluding vets),  Command squads, Heavy Weapon Squads and Sentinels,  theres no point taking any other options.  

 

My issue is the other options you have are...

 

Lascannon?   Half the ammount of shots and only 2 points higher in strength.  Yes it lets you pen av14 but you still need a 4 just to glance so its not exactly great vs av 14.  

Mortar?    Take a Wyvern instead,  cheaper and lots of rerolls and more reliable.

Missile Launcher?    Similar to lascannon,  half the shots,  1 point more strength not worth it.

Heavy Bolter or Multlaser?   I would maybe go with a heavy bolter or Multilaser but the reduced range makes me still lean towards Autocannon.  This I see as the autocannons best competition. 

Plasma Cannon for Sentinels?   Less shots,  less range,  more points.  Worth considering but I see Sentinels as lurking around the back taking pot shots and assaulting to protect bigger tanks. Executioners are better for a plasmacannons.

Heavy Flamer for Sentinel?  Just don't go there!

 

So to avoid too many Autocannons I have to look at taking other options...?  

 

What are the best of the rest for Astra Militarums?  Wyverns have to be one of the most undercosted units in the game next to TWC.  So many shots and so many rerolls make these an amazing infantry killer. Outside of these I struggle to find a real star ? 

[Kierdale]

If you're looking for one star, one solution, then you probably won't find it.

The IG codex is one of the most flexible. We have lots of useful and customizable units (e.g. Veteran squads). There are so many different approaches to army building: blob squads, mechanised infantry, mechanised veterans, heavy on tanks, heavy on flyers, deep striking Scions here there and everywhere, heavy on the artillery...

we got knives, sharp sticks...

[TompiQ]

Now I'm not a guard player (yet, considering branching out into a krieg regiment which is why I'm popping by ^^), but I'd say the thing with lascannons is that you can hand out tank hunter with your orders. Suddenly each hit has a 75% chance to take of a hullpoint and a 55% chance to pen AV13. If you add in prescience on a blob with five lascannons, you average just over 2.8 hull points and 0.3 explosions in a round of shooting. That's about 3.5 HP all in all, or a wrecked tank. If you go up to AV14 it's 2 hp + 0.2 explosions, so lower but still not too bad. By comparison 5 autocannons average 2.3HPs vs AV13 with the same buffs, granted for 50 less points.

 

Another secret star of the AM codex I'd say would be the heavy artillery battery from Forgeworld. http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/h/Heavy_Artillery.pdf

 

I intend to run 3 Medusae with Breaching Shells, small blast 48" S10ap1 Armourbane. Direct fire only, but will surely hurt whatever tanks it lands on. As they are artillery, they can take orders, and each crew added is a T7 wound vs ranged weapons. Tank hunters or ignore cover as seen fit, and you're good to go.

[CoffeeGrunt]

The Autocannon profile is considered the best balance of Strength, AP, rate-of-fire and price, as well as range. From Lootaz to MissileSides to Venom Cannons, it's a pretty common profile and is spammed as much as possible for most tournament players.

 

However, it doesn't have the punch to really hurt a Wraithknight, not even en masse.

 

It doesn't have the punch to kill AV13 reliably, and physically cannot do AV14.

 

It's going to bounce off 2+ Saves like a cork gun, and 3+ Saves will still laugh at it.

 

Lascannons with their high strength and AP2 with no Gets Hot, combined with their similar range can hurt a Toughness 7 Talos Pain Engine on 2s with only the Feel No Pain save, whereas an Autocannon only Wounds on 4s with a 3+ Save. In this instance, the Lascannon has an 83% chance to convert a Hit into a lost Wound, and even after the FNP save, it's still a 42% chance.

 

The Autocannon only has a 50% chance to land a Wound, and a 33% chance to get it through. This translates to a 16% chance, an 8% chance after Feel No Pain. Even adjusted for the Autocannon's superior rate of fire, and comparing its 10 point cost to the Lascannon's 20 to quadruple its odds - you could never do this as the base cost of the platform carrying it doesn't allow you to- it's still only a 32% chance to get a Wound.

 

Against 2+ Saves, the difference is even larger.

 

Autocannons are a good jack-of-all-trades, but they don't scare much in this game, and there's a reason they're spammed to be effective. Guard work best in a combined-arms approach with a lot of different elements at play, I wouldn't discount the other options, though I'd say that for Heavy Weapons teams, your options are basically Autocannon or Lascannon.

 

Also the Executioner is a Heavy 3 small Blast, not a large Blast, so it runs the danger of Gets Hot, especially with Plasma Cannon sponsons. I also wouldn't discount Plasma Cannon Sentinels - they're cheap for mobile Plasma blasts, something few armies get.

[WarriorFish]

You just need to make sure that you have other capabilities in whatever form - autocannons won't be popping open heavy armour for you for example. MCs, super-heavies and terminators for example as Coffee said will shrug off autocannon fire so a bit of plasma and melta to diversify your capabilities is worth considering.

[GreyCrow]

Autocannons are great against light vehicles when spammed, 10 Autocannon shots will likely get a few pens on a Rhino that will either Stun or Immobilize it or force my Landspeeders to Jink for instance.

 

As Coffee said, any of 2+-3+ save models will shrug off autocannon fire. Sure, you might wound on 2+, but you'll land on average one hit per autocannon and 3+ is my worst save. Against T6 Monstruous Creatures with a 3+, it's the same ! You will be more effective not trying to get a one-size-fits-all gun, but have units with different roles to support one another in battle, depending on your battleplan.

Having played with and against 3+ saves for quite a while now, relying on volume of fire to force the opponent to fail saves is both a sound and a very risky strategy. With 3ups, out of 6 wounds, you can fail 4 in a row or you can make them all... for a couple of turns in a row. So, having the ability to prevent me from rolling saves is great or will force me to go in cover, where you can predict my movemens and trap me.

 

If you're going for defense relying on range, then Lascannons are awesome, with Autocannon filling the "I've fired with everything with dedicated weaponry, which target should I aim my Autocannons at to be more effective ?", supporting your most dedicated weapons and acting as a back-up gun to finish off units. If you're going for a more mobile Guard, then plasmas or Meltas are very interesting !

[Jacinda]

Irwit, don't let all these comments fool you.  Yes, the AC is one of the best weapons IG can take.  It has a wide range of targets, does its role well for few points and gets even better when taken in numbers.

 

What people are saying is don't forget to fill in the gaps and take some weapons for the things an AC cannot do.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Oh yeah, not to discount the Autocannon - it's awesome. If you're facing a Transport-heavy army, it will strip Hull Points like nothing else. It's a weapon that will never be found wanting for a target, as it has so much versatility.

 

However, above all else remember that it's a Jack-of-all-Trades weapon. The best generalist.

[Altasmurf]

The autocannon is the best heavy weapon but it's not the be all and end all. Yes you can engage darn near any target in the game with them but they're not always the most efficient for the task. You still need some specialized support for anti heavy tank, monstrous creatures, and terminators. Personally I use them in any kind of infantry squad where they general purpose supports what ever my squad needs to do, but I always have some form of lascannons, plasma, and meltas ready to back them up.

[Thoqqu]

3 demolisher cannons to create a death zone the enemy won't advance into, hundreds of lasguns to create a sea of light that blinds your enemies and a deathstrike to clear the remaining enemies that are quivering in fear and trying to regain their eyesight in the protective shade off your typical terrain piece.

[irwit]

3 demolisher cannons to create a death zone the enemy won't advance into, hundreds of lasguns to create a sea of light that blinds your enemies and a deathstrike to clear the remaining enemies that are quivering in fear and trying to regain their eyesight in the protective shade off your typical terrain piece.

 

So basically stay 25 inchs or more away and youve won?  ;) 

[CoffeeGrunt]

Lasguns, while occasionally capable of killing something they have no right to, are still pretty rubbish overall. Remember that FRF, SRF works best when you're within comfortable charging range of your target, and any competent opponent will have diminished your numbers heavily.

[irwit]

So firstly thansk to everyone for contributing to this post.   Ive actually ended up going a full 180 on the whole topic.  

 

So ...

 

For leman russ I will take Punishers with Pask,  3 of them!    Reason being theres not reallya  better unit for causing lots of wounds.   Also Pask is a beast vs armour as on average I have read he does 3 glancings on av14.   Makes sense with all the rerolls +rending.  So I have av14 9 hull points dishing out 60 preferred enemy S5 shots per turn!  Thats my anti infanty midfield. 

 

Wyverns for Heavy Support.   Longer range anti infantry,  again these guys are beasts at causing wounds with so many rerolls.  I dont care if Im shooting at TDA or grotz Im causing wounds and enough wounds always cause kills.  

 

Sentinels -  I'm actually leaning towards lascannons.   3 mobile lascannons on a small av12 vehicle are going to be pretty handy and if ignored can sit back sniping for an entire game.  Av12 is as good as a dreadnought but lots more HPs and damage output for less points.   Being honest i would be better with a vendetta here as they are twin linked and on a flyer but I love the models and don't like paying for models that don't start on the board turn 1.  

 

Troops,   Melta vets in Chimeras and Taurox here.   The Taurox and its twin linked autocannon I a great choice but the Chimera is probably going to cause more damage with 6 shots vs just 2,  even with the reroll,  plus av12 vs 11,  and only 15 points more expensive.  

 

The only place I would take autocannons now would be on standard infantry or a heavy weapons team.  

 

I guess jack of all trades,  master of non,  didn't really suit my plans in the end,  lol! 

[WarriorFish]

Do you have enough dice for that many Punishers in a single squad? :lol:

[irwit]

Do you have enough dice for that many Punishers in a single squad?

I believe thats called a first world problem ?

[CoffeeGrunt]

I have the apocalypse dice box of 125 dice, though the most I've ever rolled was 50 attacks in CC with Kroot against a Fire Dragon, (I was just mopping up and having fun at that point.) 

 

That said, I do want to run a trio of Vultures and watch the carnage unfold. Unlike the Punisher, those guys are likely to hit with most of their shots!

[irwit]

 

I have the apocalypse dice box of 125 dice, though the most I've ever rolled was 50 attacks in CC with Kroot against a Fire Dragon, (I was just mopping up and having fun at that point.) 

 

That said, I do want to run a trio of Vultures and watch the carnage unfold. Unlike the Punisher, those guys are likely to hit with most of their shots!

 

I was looking at Vultures too,  mainly because the model is awesome but also twinlinked punisher is also awesome.  However you only actually cause 1 extra wound  (9 vs 10) vs t4 with twinlinked vs prefered enemy and no twin linked. You also start from turn 1 on the board and get rending and bs4 on one of the tanks :) 

[CoffeeGrunt]

Mmm, but on the other hand the Punisher can struggle to get Turn 1 fire if you're going first in my experience, and can't get to Side/Rear Armour like the Vulture can. Also Twin-Linked is better when Snap-Shooting, plus Jink is a nice ability.

 

Each has its strengths and weaknesses for sure, I personally field both a pair of Vultures in separate FOC slots, and a Pask Punisher. Dakka dakka dakka!

[irwit]

Hi all

 

So I have posted up my list which has a total of 3 autocannons all within the same unit,  the irony!  

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299638-lots-of-dice-lots-of-av/

 

Be great to get all of your feedback! 

[irwit]

Mmm, but on the other hand the Punisher can struggle to get Turn 1 fire if you're going first in my experience, and can't get to Side/Rear Armour like the Vulture can. Also Twin-Linked is better when Snap-Shooting, plus Jink is a nice ability.

 

Each has its strengths and weaknesses for sure, I personally field both a pair of Vultures in separate FOC slots, and a Pask Punisher. Dakka dakka dakka!

Yeah I'd go for that but I like 1s or 3s, purely an aesthetic reason. I hate a tank commander needs another tank, means either don't take one or take 3!

[depthcharge12]

Why not take the leman Russ Exterminator?

 

That has 4 twin linked auto cannon shots on it and you can toss Pask on it too :)

 

I think that would be a more reliable, sturdy platform an you can toss a las cannon on the front as well!!!

[CoffeeGrunt]

The thing with the Exterminator is that it has the "Jack of All trades, master of none" trait the Autocannon has.

 

Plus being Twin-Linked, it doesn't benefit much from Pask's bonuses, and doesn't have the sheer number of shots or near-guaranteed Penetration ability of the Vanquisher.

[irwit]

Agree with comment above,   4 autocannon shots,  although twinlined,  dont really compete against 20 strength 5 shots,  especially on pask where you get prefered enemy,  bs4 and rending!