Battle for the Abyss audiobook...

[Veteran Sergeant]

Out of all the novels that still need conversion to audio format, they chose that one? The novel that almost caused me to quit the entire series.

 

That poor bastard who had to sit there and read the whole thing out loud, in multiple takes.

[Loesh]

Because Black Library hates you, obviously.

 

I'm actually kind of interested in this, Ben Counter comes up with some interesting ideas and it's nice to break away from Dan Abnett, Graham, and ADB once in awhile...with no offense to any of those authors, it's just they are good staples but it's nice to have a little spice now and again.

[Phoebus]

I wish I could have been a fly on the studio's wall during that recording...

“The enormous book that served as the ship’s figurehead was intact. Slowly, silently, the metal book cracked open and folded outwards.

The massive bore of a gun emerged from behind it... wait, wait. Hold on. Cut. Cut. Are you serious? You want me to read this? Is this actually part of the story? You're having a laugh with me, aren't you?"

[Loesh]

I wish I could have been a fly on the studio's wall during that recording...

“The enormous book that served as the ship’s figurehead was intact. Slowly, silently, the metal book cracked open and folded outwards.

The massive bore of a gun emerged from behind it... wait, wait. Hold on. Cut. Cut. Are you serious? You want me to read this? Is this actually part of the story? You're having a laugh with me, aren't you?"

You find that funny, I find that ridiculously awesome, but also funny.

[Sothalor]

Suffice to say, Black Library's been making some odd decisions the last couple of... years.

Limited Edition spam, I'm looking at you.

[Phoebus]

Loesh,

 

There are tears behind that laughter.  I'm trying to laugh at something I thought was plainly ridiculous.  That scene was camp, pure and simple, in an entry of a series that I would argue is intended to be taken seriously.

[Jareddm]

The fact that they're doing this one when The First Heretic still doesn't have one is just galling to me.

[Loesh]

Loesh,

 

There are tears behind that laughter.  I'm trying to laugh at something I thought was plainly ridiculous.  That scene was camp, pure and simple, in an entry of a series that I would argue is intended to be taken seriously.

 

I don't know, I mean in a setting where the common weapon is a chainsaw *sword* is a giant gun coming out of an ornamental book really that much weirder? Half the charm of Warhammer is that it's outrageous.

 

Poor characterization on the other hand will almost always draw my ire, that there's not much excuse for.

[Phoebus]

A chainsaw wielded as a melee weapon is going to be horrific in any case.  You have to try to make its use and effects comical.  A giant book opening up to reveal a giant gun, on the other hand, starts at that point - and it's questionable if it can be manipulated so as to come off as serious even within the context of the setting/story.

[Loesh]

A chainsaw wielded as a melee weapon is going to be horrific in any case.  You have to try to make its use and effects comical.  A giant book opening up to reveal a giant gun, on the other hand, starts at that point - and it's questionable if it can be manipulated so as to come off as serious even within the context of the setting/story.

 

Is it? Is a Chainsaw Sword horrific or comically ridiculous? Some people would question you on that. :p

 

To me, incorporating a weapon into a motif is more impressive then anything.

[Phoebus]

As a generalization, sure.  In this specific instance, though, it's camp.

 

The damage a chainsaw inflicts is always horrific.  The context in which it is used determines whether it is seen as a brutal weapon or as something ridiculous.  Is the intent of the Black Library authors since, oh, 2006 or so (when the Horus Heresy series started) to showcase it as camp?  I don't believe so.  I think most of them would gladly offer that there is a lot about the setting that is over the top, but I sincerely doubt they would say that their work is meant to elicit laughs.  Nothing about A D-B's contributions to this forum leads me to think that he wants readers to think of what he's writing as ridiculous or funny.

 

Point of fact, I doubt Counter wants that either; I think it was a swing and a miss on his part... an attempt to show something at once new but still apropos to the Word Bearers.  The idea that this scene is intended to be funny, ridiculous, or outrageous (size of the Furious Abyss aside) is contingent on the story being meant to vacillate from serious/tragic to comic.  I doubt that's the case, but if it was the author failed even more.

[Loesh]

Well when I said I found it ridiculously awesome I do mean that I actually found it as cool mind you, it seems like something that a Word Bearer would make.

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative Phoebus, though it might seem like that I am. I just genuinely don't see the problem with that kind of doomsday weapon when people detonate stars for mood lighting, everything in Warhammer is scaled up and giant guns are the norm.

 

Now if you told me that someone or something in Furious Abyss acted in a particularly stupid manner, or how they explain the weapon in question functions as completely nonsensical, then I can understand.

[Phoebus]

Scale is not the issue here.  I have no problem with a weapon of the size and scale described in the book.  My problem is with the ludicrous image of a book opening to reveal a giant gun - an image that hitherto has been the province of children's cartoons.  It's a ham-fisted attempt at visualizing the theme of violence backing up ideology.  It's a concept that would have worked far better as a statement (something along the lines of "Our faith is backed by our weapons") than as a literal object.  This is something a Word Bearer would make if his intent was to satisfy sophomoric expectations/humor.

 

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as blunt.  This is, frankly, the most inapropos image I've seen in this series thus far.

[Loesh]

Well how are you looking at it? How cartoonish it is probably is the same way a Chainsword can be cartoonish. In my brain it's not like the book snaps open and the gun just pops out with a rubber sound effect, I see it as the Word Bearer book slowly opening and the gun pushing out through it's center, which is much more menacing. Furthermore this is something that the Word Bearers do all the time, they make their bodies into books, tattooing so much scripture that at time they pay to have small letters written on the jelly of their eyes. I see nothing pretentious about that, it's an iconic image that goes with their whole ideology.

 

When i'm almost certain that far more stupid things have probably shown up in Black Library books, I just don't see what that should get singled out, Mortarion dresses up as the bloody Grim Reaper but I don't think that invalidates him as a character.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Suffice to say, Black Library's been making some odd decisions the last couple of... years.

Limited Edition spam, I'm looking at you.

I dunno. Without looking at the numbers, it seems difficutlt to tell. My guess is the LE books are working. They sell right out, and I'm guessing the margins on them are huge so it's a great short term way to generate cash. If there are people willing to buy them, they might as well sell them.

But BftA? Jebus. I can't think of a book more universally reviled. Codex: Space Marines 5th Edition probably has more fans.

[Phoebus]

Well how are you looking at it? How cartoonish it is probably is the same way a Chainsword can be cartoonish. 

Nothing about chainsaw trauma is cartoonish.  Again, you have to manipulate the scene against type to make this comical.  American Psycho did a fairly good job of it, and then only after an extended effort into making the protagonist wielding said weapon appear more bizarre than menacing.

 

Nothing about a post-human living weapon eviscerating people is meant to provoke humor, never mind bring the reader in an uncomfortable intersection between humor and revulsion, as Ellis attempted in the novel cited above.

 

In my brain it's not like the book snaps open and the gun just pops out with a rubber sound effect, I see it as the Word Bearer book slowly opening and the gun pushing out through it's center, which is much more menacing. Furthermore this is something that the Word Bearers do all the time, they make their bodies into books, tattooing so much scripture that at time they pay to have small letters written on the jelly of their eyes. I see nothing pretentious about that, it's an iconic image that goes with their whole ideology.

I see nothing wrong with the latter.  Whether it's Colchisian script (which was still considered the language of the gods, right?) or runes and glyphs of the Ruinous Powers, I think there is an undeniably powerful visual quality to what you're describing.  The overall effect is little different than, say, that of a Maori warrior.  And, unlike the real world example, past a certain point in this series' timeline, said tattoos would have a physical and psychological impact on those who laid eyes on them... and those who wore them, as well.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on the former, though.  Any which way I try to visualize this, it looks like an absolutely ridiculous attempt to squeeze every last ounce out of the already overly literal "Word Bearers Equals Books" trope.  It is no less ridiculous than the Word Bearers themselves carrying boltguns with books tacked on to the barrels, which open up whenever the wielder is about to fire.

 

When i'm almost certain that far more stupid things have probably shown up in Black Library books, I just don't see what that should get singled out, Mortarion dresses up as the bloody Grim Reaper but I don't think that invalidates him as a character.

But that's a false argument, man.  I'm not denying that there is other stuff that predates this series that is also ridiculous.  I'm arguing that what Counter wrote, too, is ridiculous; that the authors who have penned the majority of the Black Library novels since this series began aim to write fiction that is meant to be taken more seriously than decade-old Index Astartes articles.

 

So many of the Legiones Astartes, for instance, are based on paper-thin concepts, which often shamelessly borrow from real-world parallels and such.  I'm all about the authors who try to elevate them to something more plausible, original, and thought-provoking.  Counter's Surprise Book-Cannon looks in precisely the opposite direction.

[Loesh]

The book cannon isn't meant to provoke humor either, but that's how you're taking it. It's a matter of perspective and what i'm pointing out is that to many people the idea of a Chainsaw sword, arguably a rather redundant weapon, can easily be taken as cartoonish. I don't personally think that, but it's not like i'v never seen the concept met with humor rather then horror.

 

Furthermore I doubt he meant to say that 'Word Bearers equal books' but books are a common motif and one I don't think should change, should the Night Lords stop running around with Batwings and Skulls? I don't think they should, death imagery has been part of them since their founding, and without any of that imagery they would lose part of their identity. The imagery is quite literal and quite blunt, but a lack of subtly has never in my mind translated to a lack of depth.

 

You might not be denying that there isn't other stuff, but when I hear that the book is universally reviled and Codex: Space Marines has more fans when so far all I know of it's crimes is that it has a book cannon...something that isn't even a quart as bad as some of the stuff in the recent God of Mars book, you have to understand that my reaction is more incredulity then anything else.

[Phoebus]

I didn't think it was funny; I thought it was silly and inappropriate to what this series is trying to be. You're the one that found it funny, which kind of proves my point.

Again, I'd rather stick to specifics as opposed to generalizations. Who have you known that reacted to a scene describing someone being disemboweled by a chainsaw as if it were a source of humor? If that was their reaction, I'd argue that the author didn't do their scene justice.

[Loesh]

I didn't think it was funny; I thought it was silly and inappropriate to what this series is trying to be. You're the one that found it funny, which kind of proves my point.

I found it awesome as well as amusing which is different from finding something inappropriate and silly, so no, not really valid....Well valid, actually, but finding something funny in the ridiculous context of Warhammer but also finding it worthy of awe and reverence is quite a different thing from finding it out of place and stupid,

And it's not merely that there was an excessive amount of gore(Though the near anime levels of blood geysers might be found silly to someone with a particular well developed sense of gallows humor.) but merely the concept of combining a chainsaw with a sword is in itself, absurd. But within the context of the setting *we* accept it as normal.

[Phoebus]

We keep dancing around the key issue.  Do you genuinely think the Heresy authors feel that their stories that meant to be viewed within a ridiculous context?  Do you think Counter intended for his audience to receive that scene as being any combination of funny?

[Loesh]

We keep dancing around the key issue.  Do you genuinely think the Heresy authors feel that their stories that meant to be viewed within a ridiculous context?  Do you think Counter intended for his audience to receive that scene as being any combination of funny?

 

Do I think Counter intended that scene to be funny? Certainly not, but do I think it's funny in the context of the Warhammer universe? Not really, with a setting that has giant world shaking doomsday weapons that explode planets with sound it's hardly the most absurd thing i'v seen. That's my point, within the upscaled universe a giant cannon inside a ornamental book isn't extraordinary, you'll have to do some legwork to convince me it's in the same ballpark as spiritual liege.

[Phoebus]

Do I think Counter intended that scene to be funny? Certainly not, ...

That's it right there, though.  Whatever our own tastes might be, the second we can both acknowledge that the object in question elicits reactions opposite to what was intended (camp for me, funny to you), there really is no point in debating this.

 

Something else, altogether - more of a qualifier on where I'm coming from than anything else.  Whatever Warhammer 40k was, the authors tasked with stories that bring it to life (or, at a minimum, certain periods of its timeline) don't seem to feel as they should be constrained by that past.  That doesn't mean they are immune from error, of course, and that's not to say that Abyss is the only entry in the Heresy series guilty of eyebrow-raising material.  This specific topic, however, is about a particular novel.

[Loesh]

 

Do I think Counter intended that scene to be funny? Certainly not, ...

That's it right there, though.  Whatever our own tastes might be, the second we can both acknowledge that the object in question elicits reactions opposite to what was intended (camp for me, funny to you), there really is no point in debating this.

 

Something else, altogether - more of a qualifier on where I'm coming from than anything else.  Whatever Warhammer 40k was, the authors tasked with stories that bring it to life (or, at a minimum, certain periods of its timeline) don't seem to feel as they should be constrained by that past.  That doesn't mean they are immune from error, of course, and that's not to say that Abyss is the only entry in the Heresy series guilty of eyebrow-raising material.  This specific topic, however, is about a particular novel.

 

 

I guess? Because I think context is extremely important with critiquing any piece of work, sound-biting something outside of a setting is one of the laziest ways to critique or praise any piece of work and what i'm saying is that it's funny specifically outside the context of Warhammer Lore. Which was my point with the Chainsword as well, in any other setting said Chainsword would be ridiculous.(No offense to you in particular, but hell how many times can you think of someone just shoving a chunk of work in your face and saying it's bad? Happens all the time in the fandom and leads to a lot of misinformation.)

 

And I know, but if you'll notice Veteran Sergeant is saying this like Battle for the Abyss is some great crime on the lore of Warhammer when the examples i'v seen so far are...underwhelming...at best compared to something that actually makes a mockery of lore.

[Phoebus]

Of course context is important.  Our issue is that the context you're ascribing to this series is, no offense intended, not an accurate one.

 

Where Veteran Sergeant's opinion is concerned, what can I say other than that it's his and that it doesn't necessarily inform mine?  I don't think Abyss is some "crime"; I don't even think it's as poor as many members of many fora claim it is.  I'm just calling something as it is:  in this case, a specific scene being camp.

[Loesh]

Of course context is important.  Our issue is that the context you're ascribing to this series is, no offense intended, not an accurate one.

 

Where Veteran Sergeant's opinion is concerned, what can I say other than that it's his and that it doesn't necessarily inform mine?  I don't think Abyss is some "crime"; I don't even think it's as poor as many members of many fora claim it is.  I'm just calling something as it is:  in this case, a specific scene being camp.

 

Fair enough, and I haven't even read the book so I obviously cannot leverage too much in saying that i'm actually informed on the subject, and I was unfairly lumping you in with him because of what I saw as a similarity of opinions.