Knurd Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Are Dark Angel Successors automatically part of the Unforgiven? Or would the Chapter have to prove itself before the secret of the Fallen is revealed? I would think that some Chapters would not go along with the Hunt so it would be unwise to divulge that information too soon? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303046-non-unforgiven-da-successors/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 All Dark Angels successors are Unforgiven, whether they know the secret or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303046-non-unforgiven-da-successors/#findComment-3940867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Belial Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 While I would agree with the above, I'd say not all chapters are inducted into the Inner Circle to the point that they know the knowledge of the Fallen. The reasons can be various for including / not including them as is the means of introducing them to the Fallen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303046-non-unforgiven-da-successors/#findComment-3940992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Well the Star Phantoms are rumored to be Dark Angels successors and don't seem to follow the whole Unforgiven thing. As far as we know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303046-non-unforgiven-da-successors/#findComment-3941038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 You can't be Unforgiven without actually knowing that there is a reason you would need to atone/be forgiven. Successors that don't know about the Fallen/have no one part of the Inner Circle likely wouldn't even be considered as part of the Dark Angels "family", regardless of gene-line. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303046-non-unforgiven-da-successors/#findComment-3941067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Bryan is right. You are only Unforgiven if you share the burden of the secret. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303046-non-unforgiven-da-successors/#findComment-3941256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 The Angels of Absolution I believe, don't consider themselves Unforgiven at all, despite being perfectly aware of the Legion's secret. They continue the Hunt through duty rather than a desire for redemption, so I don't see why there couldn't be a successor that isn't Unforgiven and doesn't know our secret. Such chapters would be successors through gene-seed alone though; they would never be accepted or trusted by the Unforgiven. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303046-non-unforgiven-da-successors/#findComment-3941264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJedi Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 They are Unforgiven, they just are free of guilt. They fight for the old Legion's honor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303046-non-unforgiven-da-successors/#findComment-3941491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 In the old days (Angels of Death, 3rd and 4th Edition Codex) only the Second Founding DA were known as being the Unforgiven. I can see why that was so. Never quite understood why that has now been enlarged to cover all DA Successors - no matter what their philosophy or knowledge of the Fallen. Not that I dislike the name - subconsciuosly it binds us as a legion. And is certainly better than being collectively called "dress wearers" :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303046-non-unforgiven-da-successors/#findComment-3941574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 The Angels of Absolution consider their guilt to have been expunged by the actions of the Legion at Caliban. How can you be Unforgiven if you no longer believe there is anything for you to be forgiven for? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303046-non-unforgiven-da-successors/#findComment-3941672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 You tell me. I'm just stating facts :) Cheers I Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303046-non-unforgiven-da-successors/#findComment-3941729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 There was non Unforgiven successors once. Once ...once The Legion suffers no fools (except Asmodai) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303046-non-unforgiven-da-successors/#findComment-3942657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
twopounder Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 The codex specifically states "The Dark Angels and their successors refer to themselves as the Unforgiven". No allowance is given to be exempt from this. Further more, DA only have second foundings. There geneseed is refused for any further foundings, despite being pure. So yes, GW is saying that any marine with DA geneseed is Unforgiven. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303046-non-unforgiven-da-successors/#findComment-3943147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epimetheus13 Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Further more, DA only have second foundings. There geneseed is refused for any further foundings, despite being pure. Not quite. Disciples of Caliban are not a Second Founding Chapter, being apparently founded in the 37th millennium. There's no evidence that the Guardians of the Covenant are a second founding chapter - earlier codexes didn't even identify them at all - and no evidence for the Consecrators as Second Founding either. The codex says that the High Lords "often" i.e. not always overlook the DA geneseed. So there probably have been several Chapters founded down the ages, though its not common. Of course, if the chapter doesn't know they come from DA geneseed, or have been lied to and told their geneseed is Ultramarine, for example, then they wouldn't refer to themselves as Unforgiven. Even if they know they are Unforgiven, I agree that they may not know the truth why they earn that epithet. They may believe that it comes from (just off the top of my head) their failure to protect the Emperor and prevent his internment in the Golden Throne. Only a few, maybe none, of the most senior Masters in the newer chapters may come close to knowing the true story. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303046-non-unforgiven-da-successors/#findComment-3943200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Epithemus13 has the whole of it right there. I'd actually be really shocked if even the High Lords of Terra are fully conversant on all the aspects that a Founding could actually take. For all we know, the Mechanicum has accidentally swapped some gene-seed for others throughout the years, and potentially the only real way to know that is if there is visible or verifiable manifestation of a flaw that matches another gene-line. After all, the BA 'Dex gives a specific example of a Founding that used BA gene-seed and yet the Successor thought 100% that they descended from the Ultramarines and just had really, really bad anger issues (and were possibly a little too bloodthirsty). Something that it seems like a lot of people forget is that the majority of the Dark Angels also don't know about the Fallen either. The name "Unforgiven" may only be something spoken of within the Inner Circle. It is also possible that the Dark Angels themselves choose to actively disregard any Foundings that are not directly linked to them from the beginning (such us what is rumored to have occurred with the Star Phantoms). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303046-non-unforgiven-da-successors/#findComment-3943406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
twopounder Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Epithemus13 has the whole of it right there. I'd actually be really shocked if even the High Lords of Terra are fully conversant on all the aspects that a Founding could actually take. For all we know, the Mechanicum has accidentally swapped some gene-seed for others throughout the years, and potentially the only real way to know that is if there is visible or verifiable manifestation of a flaw that matches another gene-line. After all, the BA 'Dex gives a specific example of a Founding that used BA gene-seed and yet the Successor thought 100% that they descended from the Ultramarines and just had really, really bad anger issues (and were possibly a little too bloodthirsty). Something that it seems like a lot of people forget is that the majority of the Dark Angels also don't know about the Fallen either. The name "Unforgiven" may only be something spoken of within the Inner Circle. It is also possible that the Dark Angels themselves choose to actively disregard any Foundings that are not directly linked to them from the beginning (such us what is rumored to have occurred with the Star Phantoms). It would be more probable that the DA themselves created them as a chapter that could be wielded as a distraction or when multiple chapters are necessary but they don't want to tip off the inquisition to the fact that they still operate as a legion. There are a plethora of uses for a chapter that doesn't realize it's real affiliation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303046-non-unforgiven-da-successors/#findComment-3943640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 But Chapters don't create other Chapters... Foundings are performed by the High Lords of Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303046-non-unforgiven-da-successors/#findComment-3943706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
twopounder Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 But Chapters don't create other Chapters... Foundings are performed by the High Lords of Terra. As previously stated, things can happen without their knowledge. And since when were DA concerned with following the rules? It's not like inquisitors typically survive first contact with the legion anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303046-non-unforgiven-da-successors/#findComment-3943713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Assuming the Dark Angels even have the full ability to create an entire Chapter, I think that people would notice if an entire Chapter of Marines just suddenly started operating in a sector. At some point, a Chapter like the Minotaurs would be sent out, it would escalate beyond just Inquisitors. I don't think that the Dark Angels would be willing to risk outright warfare with a Chapter like that, considering that would be the exact opposite of "deflecting suspicion". Best case scenario for such a Chapter is that they get created by the High Lords, get subtly invited to something by the Dark Angels, and are turned into the deflection machine without the Dark Angels actually inviting them in for tea and secret sharing. At this point though, the situation posited isn't very likely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303046-non-unforgiven-da-successors/#findComment-3943777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
twopounder Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Assuming the Dark Angels even have the full ability to create an entire Chapter, I think that people would notice if an entire Chapter of Marines just suddenly started operating in a sector. At some point, a Chapter like the Minotaurs would be sent out, it would escalate beyond just Inquisitors. I don't think that the Dark Angels would be willing to risk outright warfare with a Chapter like that, considering that would be the exact opposite of "deflecting suspicion". Best case scenario for such a Chapter is that they get created by the High Lords, get subtly invited to something by the Dark Angels, and are turned into the deflection machine without the Dark Angels actually inviting them in for tea and secret sharing. At this point though, the situation posited isn't very likely. Actually, that happens all the time. Proper records don't exist and nobody knows all of the chapters that are operating in the 41st millenium. Canon is that there is an approximation of the number of chapters operating, but many chapters don't know their progenitors and most of the chapter's history has been lost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303046-non-unforgiven-da-successors/#findComment-3944115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 We'll have to agree to disagree on it then. Canon for the Imperium as a whole is different than what the High Lords of Terra have access to, IMO. Again, it doesn't really matter, it isn't plausible to me, but if it works for you, well, that's why it is a loose canon universe. No need to argue vociferously about it on the Internet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303046-non-unforgiven-da-successors/#findComment-3944194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Considering a handfull of marines in the D.A know of the fallen whose to say that the grand master of a new founded chapter is not part of the inner circle who knows only enough to provide a base for the formation of an inner circle if the chapter ever has encounters with the fallen so when the first legion show up the inner circle of the new chapter can be read in to the truth of the legions dark past. Trust but control the information. There are 3 side to every story yours mine and the truth. Circle within circles. Sound about right for the Dark Angels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303046-non-unforgiven-da-successors/#findComment-3944201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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