JamesI Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 As an occasional Thousand Sons player, I think your idea of SG being 3+/4++ is a pretty good one. Add in a priest for FNP and I would take them over my Vanguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted March 12, 2015 Author Share Posted March 12, 2015 I added a quick review of the Deathstorm units to the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solrac Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I understand that if you look purely at the abilities of DW units, they are better than their BA equivalent, but when you factor in the cost of Belial and the extra points each DW termie costs, don't you think it might balance out in favour of the Archangels? Not gonna lie that points cost is a major factor however the difference between a BA vs DA Termie is only 4pts per model although it does add up. What we have to look at is our extra points expenditure "buys" us. Did a quick 1500pt BA list vs DW list. 1500 BA list had 31 Termies (@ 3x 225/ 2x 220/ 1x 260 pts per squad = base cost + weapon options) + Captain (guessed 120pts for Captain in TDA, TH/SS). Rules = Standard Termie Armour Rules + Archangel's Strike Force (1D6 scatter, Re-roll Reserves) + re-rollable Warlord Trait of choice. Deep Strikers come in T2>. 1499 DW list had 26 Termies (@ 3x 255/ 2x 245 pts per squad = base cost + weapon options) + Belial (special character, 190pts in TDA, TH/SS). Rules = Standard Termie Armour Rules + Deathwing Terminator Rules (Twin-linked ranged Weapons on deep strike for the whole Turn, Split Fire, Fearless, Preferred Enemy: Chaos Marines Faction, Deep Strike on T1 or T2 with no need to roll for reserves, Belial + unit does not scatter when deep striking, DW = Troops giving Objective Secured, Set Warlord trait = +1VP when Belial or his unit kill the enemy Warlord in CC). So the difference? We get 5 less bodies (200 pts) which is a pretty big deal in an Elite build and the disparity gets bigger the higher points limit you go. However I believe that Objective Secured, the ability to have Null deployment and not have to roll for reserves and a HQ that does not scatter is alone worth the extra cost not to mention the other rules we get. I have played a lot of pure DW armies from 1000pts to 1850pts (having better success at lower points brackets believe it or not) and I can tell you that 5 extra terminators wouldn't have made much more of a difference in the games where I lost. Naturally not even a pure Deathwing list runs without support e.g Dreads, an extra HQ etc. and BA has some really nice support units in the Elite slot, however strictly speaking to using Archangel's Strike Force as counts as Deathwing I am happy to pay the extra points to get all those extra rules and DA specific Deathwing units. This is just my opinion of course but I know it widely shared with most DA players I've talked to. Even with the latest 7th release of BA I still think Termies are grossly over costed for what they are but that's a different argument all together. I'll leave it there, don't want to de-rail your thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun03 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I got email from forge world about how to access relics from IA 2 Thanks for your email. With regards to the relic vehicles, Blood Angels can just use a standard chaplain to gain access to them. Cheers If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us. Regards, Forge World Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Priest Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I added a quick review of the Deathstorm units to the OP. Thank you for that If you'll indulge another newbie question, when running assault terminators in a Baal Strike Force, would you ever mix a few lightning claws into a unit of any size? I get the impression that hammernators are favored in most armies for the durability, but I was curious if the strength and initiative boosts during a charge were worth considering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted March 13, 2015 Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 Thank you for that You're welcome If you'll indulge another newbie question, when running assault terminators in a Baal Strike Force, would you ever mix a few lightning claws into a unit of any size? I get the impression that hammernators are favored in most armies for the durability, but I was curious if the strength and initiative boosts during a charge were worth considering. A worthy question. I don't think I would do that personnaly, simply because that makes the unit less good at solving the problems my army may be faced with. On the other hand, a few LCs can be useful against less deadly targets. My best advice would be to magnetise the arms on your Termies so you can experiment and determine which approach works best for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Thank you for that You're welcome If you'll indulge another newbie question, when running assault terminators in a Baal Strike Force, would you ever mix a few lightning claws into a unit of any size? I get the impression that hammernators are favored in most armies for the durability, but I was curious if the strength and initiative boosts during a charge were worth considering. A worthy question. I don't think I would do that personnaly, simply because that makes the unit less good at solving the problems my army may be faced with. On the other hand, a few LCs can be useful against less deadly targets. My best advice would be to magnetise the arms on your Termies so you can experiment and determine which approach works best for you. LC Termies, while fitting the rule of cool are sadly just not worth the cost compared to some of our other units that can do a very similar job (shred infantry really well) and they are also slow and not that durable. A priest definitely helps but that's more points too! One great way I've heard to use them is an allied Ordo Xenos inquisitor with Rad grenades,Psychotroke Grenades and the Hammer hand psychic power. Now you go and slice and dice the enemy who are at - 1 toughness, while you are at strength 7 re rolling wounds. If they are a psyker they also strike at I1. This will eat big nasties very easily, especially daemon Princes of they are psykers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 A lot of BA players have a huge hardon for pod-borne suicide melta ASM, which leads me to believe their regular opponents must not know about this thing called "bubblewrap"… They have the best defense per wound/hullpoint in the codex, while having strong offensive capabilities. I don't really think of them as suicide squads, if you are running jump DC or similar up the board you need distractions and meq saturation and due to the low price they make for very cost effective distractions while having a fair chanse of taking out key targets. Running them in a Rhino also seems overlooked. Rhinos are great for blocking units, cover and tank shocking troops off objectives, getting a fast Rhino for free is huge. Its 17 meltabombs for 5 assault marines and a Rhino, dealing with them requires a much larger invesment. In the months to come flesh teares/assault squad will probably be a staple allied detachment in competitive lists due to assault marines and empty pods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvious Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 A lot of BA players have a huge hardon for pod-borne suicide melta ASM, which leads me to believe their regular opponents must not know about this thing called "bubblewrap"… They have the best defense per wound/hullpoint in the codex, while having strong offensive capabilities. I don't really think of them as suicide squads, if you are running jump DC or similar up the board you need distractions and meq saturation and due to the low price they make for very cost effective distractions while having a fair chanse of taking out key targets. Running them in a Rhino also seems overlooked. Rhinos are great for blocking units, cover and tank shocking troops off objectives, getting a fast Rhino for free is huge. Its 17 meltabombs for 5 assault marines and a Rhino, dealing with them requires a much larger invesment. In the months to come flesh teares/assault squad will probably be a staple allied detachment in competitive lists due to assault marines and empty pods. When you think about it, the assault squad in a drop pod is criminally cheap. You pay 115 points for a 5 man squad with 2 meltaguns, a combi-melta and a drop pod. After taking the costs off for the drop pod and the melta's you are left with 10 points per marine. I wonder how effective it would be to do multiple assault squads all 5 men with drop pods, equip them for combat and just deep strike them in your enemy's face first turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartali Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Good review. The monobuild of the codex for me remains BSF with DC and Bikes, my fast and elite slots are always maxed whenever I build a list. The HS and Troops slots are mostly junk. The codex suffers from a general marine malaise that GW really needs to re-visit - Terminators, Mech of all kinds, Pistols and CC weapons are all too expensive. They where all designed in a much different game, and haven't really been adjusted since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun03 Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Terminators do need a overhaul, last time the hit the table and option said :cuss was 2nd when you need a calculator to solve light claw damage, Speaking of LC terminator's somtimes for fun I ally my space sharks with tuberous and red brother 5-8 scoring LC equiped Term are fun, but not competive. Hamantors in drop pods are usefully in full drop pod list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arufel87 Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 What do you use to kill tanks as you're not taking assault pod melta or predators? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Commander Vulkus Dorn Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Well after a long hiatus, I'm slowly getting back on the 40k scene, this time with the Sons of Sanguinius. I so far have the models from the campaign set and am possibly leaning towards rolling as FTs but still unsure, I've given some thought to the possibility of another of the 2nd founding successors. Any advice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted March 13, 2015 Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 They have the best defense per wound/hullpoint in the codex, while having strong offensive capabilities. I don't really think of them as suicide squads, if you are running jump DC or similar up the board you need distractions and meq saturation and due to the low price they make for very cost effective distractions while having a fair chanse of taking out key targets. I think just getting another 5 naked DC with JPs is probably a better idea, myself. Running them in a Rhino also seems overlooked. Rhinos are great for blocking units, cover and tank shocking troops off objectives, getting a fast Rhino for free is huge. Its 17 meltabombs for 5 assault marines and a Rhino, dealing with them requires a much larger invesment. The downside is that if your opponent has the first turn, he can focus on the Rhino, kill it, gain First Blood and leave your short-ranged squad to hoof it all the way from your deployment zone. In the months to come flesh teares/assault squad will probably be a staple allied detachment in competitive lists due to assault marines and empty pods. I don't see it. I could be wrong. We'll see. Comments in red. Good review. The monobuild of the codex for me remains BSF with DC and Bikes, my fast and elite slots are always maxed whenever I build a list. The HS and Troops slots are mostly junk. The codex suffers from a general marine malaise that GW really needs to re-visit - Terminators, Mech of all kinds, Pistols and CC weapons are all too expensive. They where all designed in a much different game, and haven't really been adjusted since. I don't think it's monobuild, but it for sure has far less good options than the 5th ed book (back in 5th ed). Sad. I agree on your second point though. Marines just don't function that well in the current meta. What do you use to kill tanks as you're not taking assault pod melta or predators? Bikes, melta Command Squad, melta Tacticals. Well after a long hiatus, I'm slowly getting back on the 40k scene, this time with the Sons of Sanguinius. I so far have the models from the campaign set and am possibly leaning towards rolling as FTs but still unsure, I've given some thought to the possibility of another of the 2nd founding successors. Any advice? -Build your DC with jump packs -Get some thunderhammers and stormshields for your termies -Build your Dread as a fragioso -Get some drop pods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Commander Vulkus Dorn Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Will do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shandwen Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I have to say that one or two lightning claw termies in a squad can do work. The extra attack they have, and the bonus strength from furious charge makes them superior to vanilla termies, but more importantly gives them the ability to make the thunderhammer squad fear of tarpits lessen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun03 Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Well after a long hiatus, I'm slowly getting back on the 40k scene, this time with the Sons of Sanguinius. I so far have the models from the campaign set and am possibly leaning towards rolling as FTs but still unsure, I've given some thought to the possibility of another of the 2nd founding successors. Any advice? Look at FW downloads they have some good places to start. Malakim Phoros is a good second founding CH , S6 on charge striking a I value, than if he takes a wound he gains 1+ S and A so S7 on charge. Than he gains rage so does the SQ he is in. also he has knock off of Dante inferno pistol . His warlord trait gives everyone in 6" hatred. At 2+/4++ he can do well in fight. Biggest down side no JP, so he limited to who he fights with, and how he gets to the fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood & Thunder Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 love the review, have been thinking a lot of the same things myself. Although I'm sure there are numerous options that could work, but since in a tourny you want to make a list that can tacticfully take on anything I think we get a little shoehorned. I would have liked to see assault marines stay troops, but alas that's just wishful thinking to be able to field 40+ assault pack models. The FTD I think gives us what we want, mainly bikes and assault, but at that point are we really an assault based army anymore? I find myself thinking more about getting more shoots off than assault. assault feels more like a novelty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted March 14, 2015 Author Share Posted March 14, 2015 love the review, have been thinking a lot of the same things myself. Although I'm sure there are numerous options that could work, but since in a tourny you want to make a list that can tacticfully take on anything I think we get a little shoehorned. I would have liked to see assault marines stay troops, but alas that's just wishful thinking to be able to field 40+ assault pack models. The FTD I think gives us what we want, mainly bikes and assault, but at that point are we really an assault based army anymore? I find myself thinking more about getting more shoots off than assault. assault feels more like a novelty. Yep. It's pretty telling that I would always recommend bikes over jump ASM these days. Very sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 A worthy question. I don't think I would do that personnaly, simply because that makes the unit less good at solving the problems my army may be faced with. On the other hand, a few LCs can be useful against less deadly targets. My best advice would be to magnetise the arms on your Termies so you can experiment and determine which approach works best for you. Am I the only one who is getting really tired of my assault units bouncing off armor saves? With DC in particular losing WS 5 and to wound rerolls. Now they constantly underperform in my games. While we gained grav we also lost much of our ability to chew up units with a 3+ save (or worse). As long as you take a raven for other purposes 5 LC termies hitching a ride could do a decent job of taking out units in cover or with numbers that we can't deal with effectively in the shooting phase. 20 S5 I5 AP3 attacks with shred is pretty dangerous after all. I think CC scouts and scout bikers deserve a little more credit than you give them, if one wants to stay pure BA. With allies however space wolves fill the same roles better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 I think CC scouts and scout bikers deserve a little more credit than you give them, if one wants to stay pure BA. With allies however space wolves fill the same roles better. Which SW units would you suggest here? Blood claws? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 I think CC scouts and scout bikers deserve a little more credit than you give them, if one wants to stay pure BA. With allies however space wolves fill the same roles better. Which SW units would you suggest here? Blood claws? Yes, swiftclaws or blood claws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted March 14, 2015 Author Share Posted March 14, 2015 I think CC scouts and scout bikers deserve a little more credit than you give them, if one wants to stay pure BA. With allies however space wolves fill the same roles better. CC Scouts would probably rate higher if they could charge on T1. Scout Bikes are just too underwhelming in spite of the gimmicks they bring to the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 I'm thinking inexpensive SR cargo, not on table deployment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 I'm thinking inexpensive SR cargo, not on table deployment.This is how I am considering running scouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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