Khorne Daemonkin - Discussion, Tactics, Background

[Tenebris]

The new codex Khorne Daemonkin was revealed and many of us already have it. I think it is time to begin to debate about facts and rules within the new book. For the background the use of "spoiler" tags is advised. During the weekend we mods endeavor to establish also the Khorne Daemonkin community, feedback and ideas are appreciated.  

 

Have fun Daemonkin!

 

 

PS: Play nice!

 

 

Let's begin with an argument. The general feeling about the new codex. What stands out, how is the presentation, first ideas... in short how is the first feeling about the new book?

[Trokair]

I am not able to pick up my book for a week or two, could somebody tell me if Skarbrand and Karnak are in the book?

Also can one still take four Heralds as one HQ choice?

 

From what I have heard this new book looks promising, though as with the Necrons the special formations look good but I do not have the right units to use it. I guess it is CAD all the way.

 

 

It feels a little unfair that a pure demon army can’t summon a Thirster with its Blood Tithe, surely the flavour of a lesser demon being elevated to Thirster would justify such an action. Just disallow Monstrous Creatures from turning into Thirsters and it should be fine instead of just non-demons.

 

As for tactics, as a I am starting with a pure demon army the removal of instability, the amount of times I have lost by one point and rolled a double 6 for my herald and hound unit is worryingly high. Non-random wargear is welcome, now I don’t need to look at my book every combat to work out what my unit does this game.

 

I have little experience with current CSM, what would people say is a good starting point for addition to a pure Demon army?

 

 

 

 

If this is the wrong place to post let me know, not sure if I should post in Deamons or CSM.

[the jeske]

the good stuff.

When an character dies it give a blood point. Put your cultists sgts at the front.

 

khorn dogs are good. use them

 

Am not a math person, but imo unless your using multiple cultist units and you know your opponent will shot them up turn 1, the formation should be give more blood tokens and then CAD.

 

6th was ally land. So is 7th. Us them. Wyverns work well with the list [+confuse your opponent. no matter how much you explain which cultists unit is which book, and which cultists are cultists and whcih are renegades, when your using 5+ your opponent will mix them up. It takes 4-5 games for my opponents to figure which were which, on avarge].

 

Demon ally have super synergy with kin. thing is your probably want to main demons, and as ally demon kin are meh compering to other options[specialy if someone uses FW]. But if you realy want to use demon kin, demons or IA is probably the best thing you can take.

 

You summon dogs, cannons and that is it. You do not summon letters, crushers or BT. They are either bad[the first two] or win more[the BT].

 

You don't realy want meq in your list other then a lord[duh I know].

 

Keep stuff cheap.The kin relics are crap. a Kin army could look something like this

 

 

Kin

HQ=as long as it is not a BT[or that no longer BT special dude I always forget name guy] it is free game. Belfegor is imo best choice.

troops

4xunits of cultists

FA

2-3xdogs

Ally

faterweaver/tzeench disc herald

2xhorrors

1xscreamers

[totgeboren]

I posted a comment in the rumour thread, but didn't get any response before it got locked, so I'll post my though again, with some elaboration. Enter the Mitosis Lord!

 

If you give a Chaos Lord the Axe of Ruin, then do Dark Apotheosis or Fury Unbound on him, you get both a Daemon Prince (with the Axe and warlord trait) or a Bloodthrister (with trait) depending on Bloodtithe and an additional Bloodthirster because of the Axe. If you do Dark Apotheosis on him, he gets to keep his Axe and thus turns into a BT upon death.

 

But still, mitosis for the Blood God!

 

A drawback with this is that getting 1 or 2 Bloodthristers at the point of the game where you have 8 Blood Tithe points seems to be either pointless or overkill, especially if you accept that they have to spend the first turn Swooping, and then the next turn Gliding, and then after that they can assault.

 

I guess it could be argued that even though they arrive in Swooping mode, the summoning is done at the start of the turn, which is before the movement phase, and even though they are prohibited from moving any further because of the deep strike rules, deciding on what flight mode to use is not movement but rather something you simply must do at the beginning of your movement phase. Especially since summoning is done "At the start of the Turn", and p.17 of the Rulebook clearly states this is before the Movement phase.

 

So by RAW they can actually go over to Gliding move on the turn they are summoned, which makes summoning a BT something rather good instead of pretty stupid.

So the rules about arriving in Swooping mode when you Deep Strike would only be there to indicate they never take Dangerous Terrain Tests when they arrive.

 

On a related note, Possessed can buy an Icon of Wrath, full price! It gives +1 to combat resolution, and that's that. They already have fleet, and Furious charge because of Daemon of Khorne, so I don't really see the point of the Icon. Give attendant characters a buff perhaps?

[Cheex]

Had a game today, 3000pts against Space Marines. I had some incredible luck with invulnerable saves and this codex seems much better at higher points values, so it's hard to see how good it is yet.

 

I'm very much liking the Blood Tithe, the Bike/Hound formation and Maulerfiends so far. I'm going to have to keep trying at lower points to see how well it scales down.

[Kol Saresk]

Is there a battle report?

[Dragonlover]

I've got a game lined up this evening with it. I can't use the detachment due to not having the models for half of it, so I'll let you all know how that goes.

 

Some of the fluff is a little meh, but I love the idea of the guys that deliberately take a stronghold in the path of a Hive Fleet or Waagh! because sieges are incredibly brutal. Might make an army of them

 

Dragonlover

[Joasht]

When an character dies it give a blood point. Put your cultists sgts at the front.

 

Only if they die in a challenge. Seems to be a commonly misinterpreted rule...

[lcannard]

Only if they die in a challenge. Seems to be a commonly misinterpreted rule...

There's a comma in the rule that complicates things.

[Skyrar's Finest]

the good stuff.

When an character dies it give a blood point. Put your cultists sgts at the front.

 

khorn dogs are good. use them

 

Am not a math person, but imo unless your using multiple cultist units and you know your opponent will shot them up turn 1, the formation should be give more blood tokens and then CAD.

 

6th was ally land. So is 7th. Us them. Wyverns work well with the list [+confuse your opponent. no matter how much you explain which cultists unit is which book, and which cultists are cultists and whcih are renegades, when your using 5+ your opponent will mix them up. It takes 4-5 games for my opponents to figure which were which, on avarge].

 

Demon ally have super synergy with kin. thing is your probably want to main demons, and as ally demon kin are meh compering to other options[specialy if someone uses FW]. But if you realy want to use demon kin, demons or IA is probably the best thing you can take.

 

You summon dogs, cannons and that is it. You do not summon letters, crushers or BT. They are either bad[the first two] or win more[the BT].

 

You don't realy want meq in your list other then a lord[duh I know].

 

Keep stuff cheap.The kin relics are crap. a Kin army could look something like this

 

 

Kin

HQ=as long as it is not a BT[or that no longer BT special dude I always forget name guy] it is free game. Belfegor is imo best choice.

troops

4xunits of cultists

FA

2-3xdogs

Ally

faterweaver/tzeench disc herald

2xhorrors

1xscreamers

 

No offense or anything, but why are you even bothering to play Khorne Daemonkin if thats the list you come up with?  Whats the point of using this dex with that list?  

 

Seriously you might as well just use the CSM dex allied with Tzeenchian daemons.  Your not using any of the strengths of a Khornite themed army, hell yer not even trying to use them.  I'm not saying this list won't work, I just don't see the point of doing it with this dex.

[the jeske]

No offense or anything, but why are you even bothering to play Khorne Daemonkin if thats the list you come up with? Whats the point of using this dex with that list?

I played more, I always test stuff, even if it is realy bad like harli or tempestus . On the why this one as an example. Because it is full of the effective stuff and I posted other lists in the rumor sections, and a few on other forums .On why the stuff in the list was taken. The belfegor+fateweaver/heralds give the army the resilienace it needs and the support kin characters do not have. The horrors are add to the dice pool and can even sometimes help dispel something, but what is more important they add range to the list.

Joasht, on 28 Mar 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

Only if they die in a challenge. Seems to be a commonly misinterpreted rule...

There's a comma in the rule that complicates things.

This.

[Slayer le Boucher]

After a bit of research it seems, at least from my interpretation of the rules, that a DPrince or BT summoned via the Blood Tithe can switch his flight mode the same turn it comes in DS.

 

Pages 68, you see the rules for FMC and DS, it says"...a FMC that comes in DS from RESERVES, is treated has beenin swooping mode".

 

I looked at the scans of the Blood Tithe pages of the codex, it simply says that Deamons summoned with the Blood Tithe arrive via DS, no mention of reserves or anything.

 

So first, Deamons from the Blood Tithe arn't in reserves for the obvious reason that they don't exist before the game.

 

But you can argue that it is the same with Deamons summoned with Malefic powers, so i checked how the Powers where written, it simply said that its an Summon/Evocation( dunno in english whats the term used, in french its Invocation), so i checked page 26 for those, it clearly says "...Summoned units, arrive using the DS rules, this unit is under controle of the player who used the power and its treated like coming from the reserves for rules purposes..."

 

No where in the Blood tithe rules is there a mention such as this, no where does it says "...units summoned via Blood Tithe, are treated as coming from reserves for rules purpose..." or anything the like.

 

And a FMC is treated to be in swooping mode only if it comes in DS from reserves.

 

So if i'm not mistaken a BT or Dp summoned via the Blood Tithe can switch flight modes the turn it comes in DS.

 

There is also the fact that DS happens at the beginning of the turn, and you change flight mode at the start of your movement phase, and a good thing with 7th Ed( one of the few) is that they made a difference between beginning of the turn, and movement phase, unlike precedent editions.

[Sception]

I find your reading on character deaths highly dubious. Facetious, even. Also, Belfegor? Isn't that what you Call Be'lakor? He's not an HQ choice for KDK.

 

If you want to run KDK, from what I can tell you run cultists, maulers, and dogs with juggerlords in. Basically the existing CSM rush list, but with juggerlords and dogs instead of bikelords and bikes/spawn. Of course, KDK juggerlords are worse in melee than nurgle bikelords due to lower toughness and worse weapons, but the hounds are arguably better retinues than bikes/spawn, opponent depending.

 

If you want to get much out of the blood tithe, then you need to run the main formation, but I'm not sure it's at all worth the obligatory possessed and 2x CSM/Zerkes/Letters. +1 attack and FNP for your entire army (or at least the KDK portion of it) is a big deal when it happens, so if you can pull it off even 2-3 times per game it might be worthwhile. I'd have to see it in action. Unfortunately, the summoning is basically pointless. Deep strike prevents units from charging same turn. Deep striking FMCs can't charge in the following turn either, even more facetious rules readings not withstanding, plus princes/BT's cost you a character in the mean time, and a ton of blood points - way more than the army-wide buffs which would be better than summoning a BT even if it could charge in the same turn, so... yeah. There's just no point to any of the blood boons other than +1 attack and FNP.

 

Of the other formations, the bike/dog formation is interesting for making dogs even better, and for the 2 bike tax not being very painful, but it's still a lot of points. Giving hounds impact hits is nice, but you're fielding less hounds to get the bikes to do it.

 

The war machine formation is worth commenting on for how bad it is as a piece of design. Not bad in a competitive sense, mind - free reign to field as many mauler fiends as you want in a battleforged army without taking heavy slots isn't competitively bad, but it is bad for the game, because it encourages spamming, and because it's the exact opposite of what a formation is supposed to be - encouragement to field a fluffy combination of units which otherwise don't synergize well. Instead it's just spamming a unit that's already good.

 

It's only there to allow the KDK 'formation of formations' to field war machine units at all, and it highlights the fundamental design problem of the main formation.

 

It should have been a detachment instead.

 

Seriously, it's pretending to be a detachment so hard, like 'you can only have X of this formation which is basically 'one heavy support unit from this book' per main formation', utterly forgetting that a battleforged army can then field any number of that formation in the same army outside of the main formation, and it makes no difference. The bonuses and rules of the main formation apply to KDK units army-wide, not just to the ones within it. Just... bleh.

 

Poor design decisions here. Decisions with implications that were never considered. Another rules book from GW that doesn't seem to have gotten a second reading before going to printers, another book with mechanics full of unforeseen consequences that prevent them from working as intended, that punish fluffy armies and encourage spam.

 

----

 

My other reaction is that a Chaos: Khorne codex, what should be the definitive book for monogod Khorne players, is downright insulting without Berzerker terminators and HQs, especially when such wouldn't even have needed new models or extra space in the book (termies and lords in KDK armies could and should have had the 'zerker rules and stat augmentations by default), that a 'definitive' khorne book without Khârn is likewise a waste of effort, and that anyone who claims this isn't or wasn't supposed to be the definitive codex for khorne players is setting the bar way, way too low for GW.

 

On top of that, nothing has been meaningfully reconsidered from the existing rules apart from making the daemons fearless instead of unstable to allow mortal characters to join and vice versa. Units that didn't work before still don't work. In fact, even for Khorne-only players the book removes more options and power from its unit than it adds, blood tithe possibly excepted. KDK chaos lords are weaker than C:CSM lords, CS Lords, or even BL lords in melee due to MoN still being better, plus those books each have better melee weapon artifacts. Daemons lost their rewards, making KDK princes even worse than khorne princes from the CCD book, which were already the worst of the lot, and making the new Blood Thirsters considerably better when allied in from CCD.

 

The book still gives no reason to field power or terminator armored infantry except maybe as taxes for the main formation (though letters pay that tax cheaper, so yeah).

 

Chaos, Khorne especially, needed a rethink and a ground-up redesign. This book instead enshrines all the current problems as they are - in some places actually making them worse, while at the same time letting us know that those changes, that redesign, just isn't every going to appear as long as the current development team remains in place, which is incredibly depressing.

 

Also, it tells us that after not knowing what to do with chosen as a unit for several editions, and having the unit languish without its own box set for all that time, the designers have in the end decided to just give up and remove them from the game. There is no other reason for the lack of chosen in this book.

 

Very frustrating.

[Adra'Melek]

Hasn't that already all been said (multiple times) in the rumour thread?

[Sception]

"Let's begin with an argument. The general feeling about the new codex. What stands out, how is the presentation, first ideas... in short how is the first feeling about the new book?"

 

Doesn't say only feelings that haven't been elsewhere expressed allowed.

 

Honestly, all the rules were leaked and discussed in the preview thread. There's no way a 'first reactions' thread wasn't going to be largely redundant in that sense.

 

The only content in this thread so far that hasn't already been expressed in the other is a rules argument over deep striking FMCs that arguably belongs not only in a separate thread, but a separate sub-forum altogether, so....

[Adra'Melek]

Fair enough

[incinerator950]

Had a game today, 3000pts against Space Marines. I had some incredible luck with invulnerable saves and this codex seems much better at higher points values, so it's hard to see how good it is yet.

 

I'm very much liking the Blood Tithe, the Bike/Hound formation and Maulerfiends so far. I'm going to have to keep trying at lower points to see how well it scales down.

What kind of army did you face?

 

I kinda see demonkin being way more beneficial at high cost, but I'm only interested at 1800< games.

[Sception]

KDK do benefit more than most from increased points. It softens the penalty of the formation taxes, while the blood points ramp up way faster. the effect of summons gets diluted, but summoning with blood points is counter productive at any points value. But while the already ban boons get worse, the good boons, +1 attack and FNP, never reduce in value as game size increases, since they apply to your entire army, or at least all the KDK elements within it.

[Khornestar]

I really want to know why Karanak is in the HQ section on the web store now.

 

Most likely explanation is that someone made a mistake when they were adding the new formations and stuff for sale, thought Karanak was in the book, and added him.

 

Far less likely, by orders of magnitude, is that the real mistake is that Karanak was supposed to be in the book and will be added via erratum later. Let's hold our breath for that one.

 

That would be a huge buff, the inverse  of the scenario with flesh hounds scouting up independent characters. Scouting up Draznicht's Ravagers with plasmas or meltas, a block of terminators, raptors, bikers, hell anything! And that is why it won't happen.

 

I mentioned before, but I expect them to nerf Scout the way they nerfed Infiltrate. I hope I'm wrong, but let's take advantage of it while we can (which is hopefully forever).

[Sception]

I think it's just a matter of crossed wires. Special characters were left out for reasons that are completely beyond me, and may not even exist, but that doesn't mean the decision wasn't deliberate, and even if it wasn't that doesn't mean a fix is coming.

 

More likely karanak, kharne, and skarbrand are simply slated to be removed from the game, and will be removed from the next incarnation of their parent books, along with chosen.

[Khornestar]

It is definitely more likely, yeah. Probably just a goof on their part.

[Scribe]

I dont have the book yet. Its in transit so cannot yet comment on the Fluff, Art, 'feel' etc.

 

That said, I have all the rules in scan's, and what I posted in the rumour thread will be the basis of what I'm looking at.

 

Blood Host

Jugger Lord rides with Hounds, with min sized Letters spammed as my Troops, 1 Unit of MSU Possessed in a Rhino, 2+ Maulers, and the Colossal Axe Thirster for the STR D.

 

CAD

Biker Lord rides with Bikes from the Blood Hosts Gorepack (Bikes x 2, Hounds) Formation with the sword that pumps more Blood Tithe, 2 min sized Cultists as Troops.

 

Thats the starting point for me, as I'll have 2 faster units (Hounds, 1 Bike Unit will be large one small) and enough units to spread out and contest/kill/die for Maelstrom.

 

---

 

Changes to the list will be a meta call, almost every tournament posts its missions before hand, so you'll know if you need to bring in help through a different CAD (Drakes, Forgefiends) or Allie's to fill in the gaps.

 

Long story short, you bring these guys if we can abuse the Blood Tithe, or at least use it to our advantage, otherwise there is no crunchy reason to bother as it can be done better elsewhere.

[Sception]

Looks about right, scribe. though I'd put that juggerlord with more hounds, and take the bikes MSU with meltas to hunt tanks instead of as a retinue. Throw in maulers and sacrificial cultists, make sure you play as large a game size as you can (2.4k+, I'd say), so that the blood tithe can tic up fast enough while still having enough units left for the +1 attack / FNP to swing things for you when it triggers.

 

I'd consider also an allied detachment of CSMs to pick up Khârn (because it's frankly criminal that he isn't here to begin with) and maybe some oblits for range support. Plus some backfield camper cultists, and maybe a dreadclaw out of fast attack to deliver kharne and those obligatory possessed, instead of the rhino you're currently got them it.

[Smurfalypse]

Have not played a game yet, had a rough week or work and have a rougher week next week so bowed out of a monthly RTT in the DC area. Was going to use this book so I will not play again until Thursday evening. 

 

Here are a few things that caught my eye. 

You can take some of the CC based things that are normally in the CSM Codex AND a few of the Khorne Daemons and it counts as one source. This is good for the tourney scene as there is usually a source limit (NOVA Open for example has a 2 source limit). Basically I can do a Lord, Herald of Khorne on Juggy, Khorne Hounds, Cultists, Maulerfiends that are all in my normal tournament list and instead of being two sources it is now one. This is good for the CSM tourney players if they use some of the Khorne stuff previously :P

 

Lord is an absolute monster, literally one of the best CC guys in the game comes from this book. 

Lord+Juggy+Goredrink (op)+Blood-Forged Armor (Eternal Warrior, FnP, 3+). This gives him S6, T5, W4, A5. Also gains Rage (MoK), Counter Attack (MoK), Fleet (Calvary). If he gets ONE kill he will be S7 standing still and S8 on the charge. Dude is pricey at 230ish but darn if he doesnt rip some stuff up at AP2, also is super tanky at T5, FnP, 3+/4++/FnP. I really like this guy and he will probably replace my Nurgle Lord I use from the Crimson Slaughter Supplement. 

 

The best part is that the CSM and Daemon elements of this book can join each others units. This is how it should have been all along, CSM and Daemons are married, it may be an unhappy marriage at times but it is a union none the less. This book intertwines these different elements together decently. I would more than likely ally with Daemons from here since CSM stuff is well known for being pretty sub par mostly and just cherry pick what I want (Maulers, Lord, Cultists).

 

Going to list some Pros and Cons in my opinion just to sum it all up.

PROS

*Units can join each other at will here. Heralds can join CSM units, Lords can join Daemon units.

*Get rewarded for your :cuss dying. At least you gain something when Cultists run off the board or your Maulerfiend gives up First Blood :P

*Blood Tithe can be helpful. Can turn a Cultists Champ into a Thirster or a Prince (if he passes his LDR).

*This book is all about CC, everything hits hard. If you like that aspect of the game you will like this book.

*Has a good feel to the marriage of CSM and Daemons. They mix well and compliment each other in a few different ways.

*CSM units that are also Daemons have both Mark of Khorne and Daemon of Khorne which gives a little boost to a few units (Furious Charge, Rage, Counter Attack).

*No Instability or Warp Table, random elements mostly removed except for Possessed and Spawn. 

 

CONS

*CSM units are still kinda poopy as a whole. Zerkers still not good and they really missed a chance for them to be a mainstay of this book I think.

*A lot of things are more expensive due to Marks and Daemon Of being added to stuff. Made some units much worse (Warp Talons, Possessed).

*No Psychic Powers. Nothing to add to it, which is fine, but this is a big part of the game and they have no presence outside of a single one use item. 

*Formations are kinda clunky and bad. I read them and get excited and then the last part it forces your hand in adding a really poopy unit. Feels forced unlike a lot of other Forms.

*Kharne MIA, though this TO ME (as in my opinion) leads me to believe that he will show up in a separate Codex for his Legion or Legions. I say this because the Daemon Khorne Characters are mostly all accounted for in this book. So this may not be a CON.

*Models with Skulls for the Skull Throne rule (ALL characters have it) are forced to challenge or accept challenges. For some reason, the way it works in this book (exactly the same way as the CSM Codex) feels less out of place than in the CSM book. Maybe because it is Khorne so the flavor feels right and not forced. You also get rewarded win or lose a little bit from it, so not 100% bad. Maybe I am just so used to it at this point that it did not phase me, who knows :P

 

 

Just my two cents.

As to Jeske wanting to ally with Tz Daemons, I wholeheartedly agree. I would probably take two Horror Blobs and two Heralds of Tz as the core of my allies. Curse Earth should be a mainstay of anything with Daemon rules. The downside to this is the characters from the Daemon Codex cannot join units from this book because they do not have Instablility (thank the gods). 

[Hezirah]

@ Smurfalypse

 

The axe is unwieldy, so I don't think it would be that good on Lord. Also, as Venomlust pointed out, you can't give two artefacts to a same character.