Khorne Daemonkin - Discussion, Tactics, Background

[Smurfalypse]

I think it's just a matter of crossed wires. Special characters were left out for reasons that are completely beyond me, and may not even exist, but that doesn't mean the decision wasn't deliberate, and even if it wasn't that doesn't mean a fix is coming.

 

More likely karanak, kharne, and skarbrand are simply slated to be removed from the game, and will be removed from the next incarnation of their parent books, along with chosen.

 

The more I think about it the more it makes sense in some ways for Kharne. This is Codex Khorne Daemonkin, Kharne has nothing to do with Daemons and more than likely is being kept for a different Codex, just seems to make sense to me. Karanak and Skarbrand however, that one I haz no clue about. 

@ Smurfalypse

 

The axe is unwieldy, so I don't think it would be that good on Lord. Also, as Venomlust pointed out, you can't give two artefacts to a same character.

 

He is tanky enough to go at I1 and be good with it. The other option would be Axe of Khorne because of the ID on a wound roll of 6 for similar points, though you lose the off hand attack. Personally though, I1 or I6 is not a huge thing, most other CC guys that do well vs CSM/Daemons are I1, S10 (TWC) anyhow so works for me :P

[Sception]

A direct reading of the wargear page implies one artifact per character in KDK armies. "A character may have ONE of the following (non weapon artifacts), or may INSTEAD exchange one weapon for one of the following (weapon artifacts)". The wording is different than for the CSM book. There it was arguable, this is much more clear. One of these, or instead of that one, may replace one weapon with one of those.

 

It seems to me that Goredrink/BFA is not a valid combination. Which leaves you without FNP/EW on your unwieldy lord, or with a somewhat less impressive melee weapon, though frankly I'm also not convinced the goredrinker is that great? I mean, it's not a specialist weapon, at least, but it's still unwieldy. Just take ye olde fisticlaws for only ten points more, and you have the same number of attacks, a strength that starts at 8 (which I'm not convinced is worse than starting at 6, 7 after a wound, and working up to 10 only after inflicting 5 wounds). Plus you'd have an at-initiative attack option when not facing 2+ saves.

 

Maybe if it upped attacks? I don't know.

 

I'm not at all convinced that he tops out a MoN bike lord with the Black Mace or Krannons gear, though it may be better than the equivalent MoN BL spineshiver bikelord. I guess it would depend on how many terminators you fight, and how successful you are at keeping your lord out of challenges with the better equipped duelists that loyalists have.

 

 

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While summoning a unit might occasionally be useful for objective purposes, any time you summon a thirster or prince, I really think you're missing out by not taking FNP or +1 attack on your army instead. Seriously, those immediate, multiplicative bonuses looked better than the delayed, additive summoning options to me back when I thought the bonus only applied to a single unit of your choosing. That they instead apply to all KDK stuff in your army, while also costing less blood points, just puts them so far over the top that the second half of the blood point table really may as well just not exist, it's so completely outclassed. IMO, FNP or +1 attack for the entire army would be better than a bloodthirster that didn't cost you a character and could charge the turn it appeared. There really is just no contest, here.

 

This isn't entirely a complaint. If anything, I think the blood tithe is better overall than smurf is even giving it credit for. It's just that that benefit is entirely within the amazing army-wide buffs and not at all in the summoning.

 

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Also, what do you mean daemon khorne characters are accounted for, smurf? Karanak isn't here, and neither is skarbrand. The only special character is skulltaker, and he loses his mount options.

 

Rather than a promise of some sort of future legion codex, I would take this as a sign that the missing characters, kharne included, are more likely to simply be dropped from the game altogether.

 

Seriously, 'they're just saving him for a legion book'? How long have we been telling ourselves that? It's not coming. They aren't doing it. This is, in GW's mind, the definitive Codex: Khorne. Any Khornate stuff that isn't in there is almost certainly on the chopping block.

 

I mean, we knew that about scarbrand already when he wasn't in the new bloodthirster box, but yeah. They aren't saving Khârn for another book because he doesn't fit the fluff of this one. He's practically the definition of the fluff of this book: a raving madman who kills indiscriminately for the glory of khorne, too blinded by bloodlust even for the remains of the world eaters legion to tolerate. Those who follow him aren't warriors who obey his orders, for he has no interest in giving any, rather they're mad cultists who worship him as an embodied avatar of Khorn's wrath.

 

I mean, he's on the cover of the special edition!

 

If he doesn't belong in this book, then he belongs nowhere at all. And since he's not here, then I'd wage dollars to doughnuts* that nowhere is exactly where he'll be when C:CSMs sees its next update, and Karanak and Scarbrand will be right there with him when C:CD get theirs. If it's any consolation, the existance of this book means we probably won't be seeing those updates in this edition, so it's not like the axe is coming down any time soon (har har), and by the time it does, maybe the designers will have changed their minds?

 

Regardless, I would not expect any sort of errata adding him, or any sort of legion codex for him. Frankly, it's long past the time when we should have just given up on legion support.

 

 

*seriously, if errata adds Khârn to this book, or if a legion book is released that includes him, I will personally buy a doughnut for any forumite who swings by Baltimore to visit and rub how wrong I was in my face.

[Smurfalypse]

A direct reading of the wargear page implies one artifact per character in KDK armies. "A character may have ONE of the following (non weapon artifacts), or may INSTEAD exchange one weapon for one of the following (weapon artifacts)". The wording is different than for the CSM book. This is not the wording from the CSM codex. There it was arguable, this is much more clear. One of these, or instead of that one, may replace one weapon with one of those.

 

It seems to me that Goredrink/BFA is not a valid combination. Which leaves you without FNP/EW on your unwieldy lord, or with a somewhat less impressive melee weapon, though frankly I'm also not convinced the goredrinker is that great? I mean, it's not a specialist weapon, at least, but it's still unwieldy. Just take ye olde fisticlaws for only ten points more, and you have the same number of attacks, a strength that starts at 8 (which I'm not convinced is worse than starting at 6, 7 after a wound, and working up to 10 only after inflicting 5 wounds). Plus you'd have an at-initiative attack option when not facing 2+ saves.

Indeed, I missed the "Instead". I would still take the armor over the weapon and just do an Axe of Khorne. He is still pretty baller and it saves a few points. To compare that weapon to Claw/PF combo is just odd though, that combo is pretty bad normally and way way expensive. The things that beat CSM/Daemon CC are TWC types of units now, all of their characters will have S10 I1 weapon and be T5, 2+, so not having AP2 weapons is just asking to get crushed. Also when you fight them you are going at I1 anyhow because you would be using your PF for AP2, so all youve done with that combo is basically use 10 more points when you could just have the Gorger instead. With that said, I think I would take the Armor instead since I must choose one, making him EW and FnP, an Axe of Khorne + Meltabomb is a better setup than anything else in that book I would guess. He still rips in CC and can ID on a wound roll of 6. Saves a few points as well :P

[Sception]

Agree with you on armor > axe. Defenses matter so much in melee in this game, especially for characters expected to take part in challenges. It's why khorne's "all offense no defence" general policy just falls flat on its face. And that's still the case here, the units that pay more for offense (bloodcrushers, Princes, Berzerkers, etc), are all just flat out worse than the units that pay more for defense (hounds), and where a character has the option to invest in either defense or offense, the defense is just always the better choice. Jugger mounts are nice at least in that they do both.

 

Heck, the best blood table result is FNP for your entire army - which is admittedly pretty amazing. In the past I claimed the Blood Tithe wouldn't be a faction-making rule, but that was when I thought the FNP was for one unit only. On everything? It might just justify the 2x bloodletters, 1x possessed requirement for the formation, if you're playing enough points.

 

 

I'm not entirely convinced of the axe of khorne. At init AP2 is real good, but specialist weapon and the shear price tag hurts, plus you still need something to deal with walkers & vehicles.

 

I agree that a juggerlord with AoK and the armor is probably the best choice for your compulsory HQ in the formation or a CAD. I wouldn't call him better than a nurgle marked crannon on a bike, though. And he's certainly no MoN daemon prince, black mace or otherwise. Not bad, imo, but I wouldn't call him 'one of the best melee characters in the game'.

[Smurfalypse]

Agree with you on armor > axe. Defenses matter so much in melee in this game, especially for characters expected to take part in challenges. It's why khorne's "all offense no defence" general policy just falls flat on its face. And that's still the case here, the units that pay more for offense (bloodcrushers, Princes, Berzerkers, etc), are all just flat out worse than the units that pay more for defense (hounds), and where a character has the option to invest in either defense or offense, the defense is just always the better choice. Jugger mounts are nice at least in that they do both.

 

Heck, the best blood table result is FNP for your entire army - which is admittedly pretty amazing.

 

 

I'm not entirely convinced of the axe of khorne. At init AP2 is real good, but specialist weapon and the shear price tag hurts, plus you still need something to deal with walkers & vehicles.

 

I agree that a juggerlord with AoK and the armor is probably the best choice for your compulsory HQ in the formation or a CAD. I wouldn't call him better than a nurgle marked crannon on a bike, though. And he's certainly no MoN daemon prince, black mace or otherwise. Not bad, imo, but I wouldn't call him 'one of the best melee characters in the game'.

Hounds do not fall flat on their faces :P

Also Heralds of Khorne are some of the scariest things for CC in the entire Daemon Codex. Just take a Juggy and a Lesser Gift for AoK and he is hot to trot man, that dude has killed many many things in hundreds of games so far. You CANNOT run a Hound unit without one, it is nearly mandatory :P That ID chance and AP2 puts the fear of God into people. 

 

The problem with Nurgle Prince and mace is that he is super killy but he is still super fragile and super expensive. He literally is the same price as 20 Khorne Hounds and that is just insane (Assuming you ML3 him, which you should since he has to get a shot at Iron Arm or Endurance). That guy is just usually bad except in very casual games with some beer and pretzels (which I love to play, but I also tourney it up).  That said, this Khorne Lord does hold a flame to those things, he runs with Hounds and a Herald of Khorne, both of which are no joke and add ablative wounds to your Lord.

 

Gotta play test though, my mind could drastically change once I get a few games in :P

The lack of a chance for Endurance bugs me a bit, I love that chart as there are so many handy powers. 

[Slayer le Boucher]

Mali, i really don't think that Khârn will be squatted.

I mean he has become quite popular withe the Betrayer HH novel, thry also released the new novel Khârn Eater of worlds.

 

There is so much material that focus on him, that this would be a very bad marketing decision.

 

Also if they brought back Belakor and Cypher, who where models Oop for nearly a decade, its for the same marketing puposes.

 

They know that they will cash in big time if they release a new Khârn model, since theh want to get ride of the failcast kits for plastic kits.

[Scribe]

Yeah, my Warlord...Lord will be Jugger, Armour, Axe of Khorne, Melta, Sigil, my secondary  HQ on Bike with Blade of Endless Bloodshed to try and push Blood Tithe.

[thraxdown]

I just don't see them deleting Khârn from the game yet not skulltaker. Khârn is more iconic, in my mind at least. doubt skarbrand remains as he doesn't have a model but khârn, skarbrand and karanak all have finecast models. I bet they both stay in csm and cd when those are updated, and SKulltaker gets limited to daemonkin.

[Adra'Melek]

I can see it being more likely that Special characters will move to be separate data slates, rather than being removed completely.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

What do you all think of Princes now?  I would save the Blood Forged Armour for them.  But a Juggerlord probably is the easier way to get into combat safely.

 

What are your thoughts on the BT with the D weapon?  Allying in Belakor for Invis would be a good delivery system for that D.

[Lagrath]

Here is roughly what I would take for ~1850

 

Slaughter Cult KD:

1x Juggerlord with the armor and the powerfist and a 4++

8x Bloodletters

8x Bloodletters

5x Possessed

4x Khorne Maulerfiends with lasher tendrils

15x Flesh Hounds

5x Khorne Bikers, 2 meltaguns

5x Khorne Bikers, 2 meltaguns

 

Allied CSM:

1x Zhufor

1x minimum-sized unmarked Cultist squad for objectives and hiding

1x Land Raider that has the IA:13 upgrade for +1 to invul save for Daemons of Khorne within 6"

 

Zhufor joins the Possessed in the Land Raider. Now when the Possessed assault out of the Raider, they have a 4++ and can tank for Zhufor while he hits stuff with a Str 10 powerfist or his AP4 axe. (If you really needed to, they could all also deep strike together).

 

You put the Juggerlord with the Hounds in front of the Land Raider, then Scout them 12" before the game starts. You put 2 Maulerfiends on either side of the Land Raider and move the Land Raider 18" and the Maulerfiends go 15"+ inches with the fleet re-roll. The Maulerfiends have 4++ within 6" of the Land Raider. The Land Raider also gives the 4++ to any Hounds in range (including in CC).

 

The bikes go up the flanks to kill easy infantry or to hunt vehicles (including shooting meltas into Knights from the side angles).

 

It's not game-breaking good, but the sheer speed and number of high-threat units should give you a chance in a lot of games. It might also be really fun to play, since you assault 1710 points worth of units on turn 2. If a lot of units die between what you lose and what you kill, summoning in extra daemons may turn the tide, since you'll be summoning them near combats to assist with tipping things in your favor.

 

If you assault turn 2 and you have not lost any Hounds, they will hit for 15 str 4 and 60 Str 5 attacks. If you have 3 points (from killing or losing even 1 unit!), you can do that AND give your whole army FNP. Plus the Hounds have Scout, Counter-Attack, Fearless, Hatred: Slaanesh, and Preferred Enemy: Psykers.

[Sception]

You're missing the min 2 of letters, zerkers, or csms on the slaughtercult.

 

Personally, I still think khorne princes aren't worth fielding; too fragile even with the armor. Not a big fan of the thirsters, either.

[incinerator950]

Do the possessed and bikers also have to be at minimum of 8 bodies?

[Sheesh Mode]

More likely karanak, kharne, and skarbrand are simply slated to be removed from the game, and will be removed from the next incarnation of their parent books, along with chosen.

 

Along with... 

 

What? I can't see what you wrote Malisteen, did you say something? 

 

*beginning to worry*

[Sception]

Along with chosen, which also don't appear in this book.

[Lagrath]

You're missing the min 2 of letters, zerkers, or csms on the slaughtercult.

 

Personally, I still think khorne princes aren't worth fielding; too fragile even with the armor. Not a big fan of the thirsters, either.

 

Thanks. I thought you could take Cultists. Well, that just means 16 Bloodletters to deep strike in turn 2 to help the assaults in turn 3, instead of relatively useless cultists.

 

I agree the Juggerlord is not as good as Captain America, but considering that he is slightly cheaper and can do some cool stuff (down to 1 wound, turn into a daemon prince with full wounds, keeps the armor), I think it's almost as good.

[Adra'Melek]

Do the possessed and bikers also have to be at minimum of 8 bodies?

No. I don't have the CSM or Daemons books but I'm guessing they're the normal starting numbers.

[Sception]

But would you really ever go prince to save a few wounds on the lord, in the process booting yourself out of hand to hand and sitting in the open hoping for 5++/fnp to keep you alive for another turn, when you could instead give your entire army fnp or +1 attack right now? More to the point, would you ever pass on giving your evtire arny a buff in one turn, just to save up blood points on the off chance that by the next turn your lord will have taken multiple wounds but not died in the mean time?

 

Blood tithe goes to four. There is no second half of that table. That's not even a complaint, the 4 point capstone is amazing, esp for slaughtercult.

[Scribe]

Yeah I agree I want army buffs as many turns as I can get them

[Lagrath]

But would you really ever go prince to save a few wounds on the lord, in the process booting yourself out of hand to hand and sitting in the open hoping for 5++/fnp to keep you alive for another turn, when you could instead give your entire army fnp or +1 attack right now? More to the point, would you ever pass on giving your evtire arny a buff in one turn, just to save up blood points on the off chance that by the next turn your lord will have taken multiple wounds but not died in the mean time?

 

Blood tithe goes to four. There is no second half of that table. That's not even a complaint, the 4 point capstone is amazing, esp for slaughtercult.

 

I think that I would use the army-wide buffs for at least the first half of the game, and when I have less units alive the last 2-3 turns, I would summon hounds to grab open objectives/tarpit a unit. I would use it for sure to save the lord though- going from 1 wound back to 4 wounds + keeping the artifact is amazing, especially since by that time the escorts are probably dead anyway. And if the Lord is within 6" of the land raider, he has the same 3+/4++/FNP as he did starting out (he's even one Toughness higher). It also keeps your opponent from getting Slay the Warlord easily. Plus, you can always pick one lower army-wide result as your second buff when you do a Daemon Prince.

[Amornar]

 

But would you really ever go prince to save a few wounds on the lord, in the process booting yourself out of hand to hand and sitting in the open hoping for 5++/fnp to keep you alive for another turn, when you could instead give your entire army fnp or +1 attack right now? More to the point, would you ever pass on giving your evtire arny a buff in one turn, just to save up blood points on the off chance that by the next turn your lord will have taken multiple wounds but not died in the mean time?

 

Blood tithe goes to four. There is no second half of that table. That's not even a complaint, the 4 point capstone is amazing, esp for slaughtercult.

 

I think that I would use the army-wide buffs for at least the first half of the game, and when I have less units alive the last 2-3 turns, I would summon hounds to grab open objectives/tarpit a unit. I would use it for sure to save the lord though- going from 1 wound back to 4 wounds + keeping the artifact is amazing, especially since by that time the escorts are probably dead anyway. And if the Lord is within 6" of the land raider, he has the same 3+/4++/FNP as he did starting out (he's even one Toughness higher). It also keeps your opponent from getting Slay the Warlord easily. Plus, you can always pick one lower army-wide result as your second buff when you do a Daemon Prince.

 

I agree, if you are running high on blood tithe turn 4ish and your down wounds on your lord turning him into a flight-less prince is a great solution to keep him kicking even longer. I say flight-less so you can change the next turn, and like Lagrath says, try to summon him in range of your land raider buff for the 3+/4++/FNP and then take FNP as the secondary buff for the formation and just take the hit of not getting plus one attack for that turn. Certainly not an every game plan, but a solid option for when the situation arises and really can throw a wrench in your opponent's plans.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

I think it's just a matter of crossed wires. Special characters were left out for reasons that are completely beyond me, and may not even exist, but that doesn't mean the decision wasn't deliberate, and even if it wasn't that doesn't mean a fix is coming.

 

More likely karanak, kharne, and skarbrand are simply slated to be removed from the game, and will be removed from the next incarnation of their parent books, along with chosen.

The more I think about it the more it makes sense in some ways for Kharne. This is Codex Khorne Daemonkin, Kharne has nothing to do with Daemons and more than likely is being kept for a different Codex, just seems to make sense to me. Karanak and Skarbrand however, that one I haz no clue about.

@ Smurfalypse

 

The axe is unwieldy, so I don't think it would be that good on Lord. Also, as Venomlust pointed out, you can't give two artefacts to a same character.

He is tanky enough to go at I1 and be good with it. The other option would be Axe of Khorne because of the ID on a wound roll of 6 for similar points, though you lose the off hand attack. Personally though, I1 or I6 is not a huge thing, most other CC guys that do well vs CSM/Daemons are I1, S10 (TWC) anyhow so works for me :P

Actually Skarbrand is easier than Khârn. This book is about armies who devoted to Khorne, and they worship Khorne by picking one Bloodthirster as a representation of Khorne's will made manifest and then they fight to summon that Blood Thirster and his Legion to the material realm until they either ascend or die.

 

Skarbrand is a Bloodthirster who tried to kill Khorne. So they might respect him for being a symbol of strength, but ultimately 1.)he lost and 2.)to follow him would put them outside of Khorne's favor.

 

As for Karanak, I assume his role as someone who specifically hunts down those who insult Khorne or breakways with his creed(in other words, blasphemers and apostates of the Eightfold Path), would mean he doesn't especially have a place among warbands who are so devout that they've actually read books written by Khorne.

 

I think what has completely flown over people's heads is the theme of this book.

 

Normally, a Codex strives to allow various themes into your armies so every can be unique and represent several playstyles. Even Codices like the Space Wolves and Blood Angels, which are meant to represent specific Chapters(and their very similar descendants in the BA's case) are still able to be represented with different themes and playstyles.

 

This is different. It only has one theme; to rush forward into battle, not caring if you live or die, only that you summon the servants of your god onto the battlefield. Sure, people might be able to find different playstyles, but something tells me those won't work to well. Especially when there's things like a Banner of Blood which tries to make all non-Daemons of Khorne scatter.

 

Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows. This book is for those who are willing to bleed as much as their allies.

 

EDIT: And they are also partially correct about the "one artefact". Your choices are to either take the rune, armor or helmet, or trade one weapon for one of the special weapons. Otherwise I'd take the armor and the axe that can give you souble strength after you cause so many unsaved wounds. The exact wording is

 

“ARTEFACTS OF SLAUGHTER

Only one of each Artefact of Slaughter may be taken per army. A model may take one of the following:

- The Brazen Rune…15 pts

- The Skull-helm of Khorne 3…15 pts

- The Blood-forged Armour 6, 7…50 pts

 

A model may instead replace one weapon with one of the following:

- Goredrinker 7…30 pts

- The Blade of Endless Bloodshed…35 pts

- Kor’lath, the Axe of Ruin 7…60 pts”

 

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex - Khorne Daemonkin.” Games Workshop Ltd, 2015-03-16. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

Which honestly makes sense. The goal is to proliferate the items throughout the army because when this army requires that your HQ units might have to sacrifice themselves by becoming Bloodthirsters or dying to get you another Blood Tithe point, why would you put all your eggs in one basket?

 

Me personally, the Bloodforged armor and an axe of Khorne. Expensive, yeah but you get Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain, AP2 at Initiative and Instant Death on any To Wound rolls of a 6.

[Kol Saresk]

Oh, my biggest disappointment is that you can only have one command formation in the Blood Host detachment. Which does keep in with the theme of the army worshipping only one Greater Daemon as the Will of Khorne Made Manifest. But basically if you want the Wrath of Khorne or the Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

But on the brightside, you can take the formations outside of the Blood Host detachment system.

[Slayer le Boucher]

I think it's just a matter of crossed wires. Special characters were left out for reasons that are completely beyond me, and may not even exist, but that doesn't mean the decision wasn't deliberate, and even if it wasn't that doesn't mean a fix is coming.

More likely karanak, kharne, and skarbrand are simply slated to be removed from the game, and will be removed from the next incarnation of their parent books, along with chosen.

The more I think about it the more it makes sense in some ways for Kharne. This is Codex Khorne Daemonkin, Kharne has nothing to do with Daemons and more than likely is being kept for a different Codex, just seems to make sense to me. Karanak and Skarbrand however, that one I haz no clue about.

@ Smurfalypse

The axe is unwieldy, so I don't think it would be that good on Lord. Also, as Venomlust pointed out, you can't give two artefacts to a same character.

He is tanky enough to go at I1 and be good with it. The other option would be Axe of Khorne because of the ID on a wound roll of 6 for similar points, though you lose the off hand attack. Personally though, I1 or I6 is not a huge thing, most other CC guys that do well vs CSM/Daemons are I1, S10 (TWC) anyhow so works for me

Actually Skarbrand is easier than Khârn. This book is about armies who devoted to Khorne, and they worship Khorne by picking one Bloodthirster as a representation of Khorne's will made manifest and then they fight to summon that Blood Thirster and his Legion to the material realm until they either ascend or die.

Skarbrand is a Bloodthirster who tried to kill Khorne. So they might respect him for being a symbol of strength, but ultimately 1.)he lost and 2.)to follow him would put them outside of Khorne's favor.

Yeah..., except this fall flat on his face when in the same darn book its says that a few Deamonkin Warbands devote themselfs to Skarbrand because in their eyes, he is the manifestation of the Laws/tennets of Khorne; Kill; no matter who, no matter the odds.

It was in the part where it explained how a greater deamon can challenge another one in the Arena to gain his title and standing, it goes on by saying that the only who was victorious several times in a row was Skarbrand.

Oh, my biggest disappointment is that you can only have one command formation in the Blood Host detachment. Which does keep in with the theme of the army worshipping only one Greater Daemon as the Will of Khorne Made Manifest. But basically if you want the Wrath of Khorne or the Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

But on the brightside, you can take the formations outside of the Blood Host detachment system.

Would personnaly have loved to see another Command formation involving 1-8 Heralds/Blood Thrones, so that you can put more of those in different units and scatter the Locis around.

[Targetlock]

My 1000pt force i am roughly working towards is the slaughtercult plus the gorepack, fast and fun possessed are in my opinion very characterful of the army but I have trouble trying to find a use for them, but if that is the 'tax' i must pay so be it. i only know the list roughly as i wont have the book till later in the week.

for hq would a basic herald with axe of khorne upon a juggernaught be a decent hq? planning to stick in a large unit of flesh hounds