Khorne Daemonkin - Discussion, Tactics, Background

[Hellrender]

1 pool per army, all benefit and the slaughtercult can get a second effect as per it's special rules.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

A unit gains a Blood Tithe point for your army if it is destroyed or destroys another unit and at least one model in the destroyed/destroying unit has the BftBG rule. Cultists from a CAD would not gain a Blood Tithe point for your army for being wiped out, for example, unless they were joined by an IC with BftBG who was also destroyed.

 

Any unit not from a Blood Host detachment or a Daemonkin formation does not benefit from the Tithe reward.

 

An IC with BtfBG does not confer same on a unit that doesn't have BftBG, so Cultists from a CAD who are joined by an IC with BftBG do not benefit from Tithe Rewards, though the IC does.

[Dysorange]

Another crazy idea, what if you want to play, two slaughter cults?

 

Would that make you automatically generate two Blood Tithe points at the beginning of each turn?

 

I know there would be the additional tax of 1 optional detachment but with two maulerfiends it could work.

A unit gains a Blood Tithe point for your army if it is destroyed or destroys another unit and at least one model in the destroyed/destroying unit has the BftBG rule.

 

Cultists, or any unit, from a CAD would not gain a Blood Tithe point for your army, for example.

Unless said cultists and all other units from the CAD are drawn from the Daemonkin. Right?

 

Which would be my plan.

[Kol Saresk]

A unit gains a Blood Tithe point for your army if it is destroyed or destroys another unit and at least one model in the destroyed/destroying unit has the BftBG rule. Cultists from a CAD would not gain a Blood Tithe point for your army for being wiped out, for example, unless they were joined by an IC with BftBG who was also destroyed.

 

Any unit not from a Blood Host detachment or a Daemonkin formation does not benefit from the Tithe reward.

Actually since the models in the CAD he is asking about would still be from the Daemonkin Codex, the CAD would still contribute to and benefit from the Tithe Pool. The only thing a model needs is the BftBG rule and to be a part of a Battleforged Army. Which could be CAD, the Blood Host, or a Daemonkin Formation.

 

EDIT: Dysorange: you would have to have two Blood Hosts to gain two Tithe Points per turn. The only thing two Slaughtercults could get you is a third Tithe ability(one primary per Army, and then a lesser ability for each Slaughtercult). And that's if a FAQ isn't issued stating otherwise.

 

Although personally, that is something I would discuss with the opponent before hand. Two Blood Tithes is bad enough. I know I wouldn't be too happy if someone tried to throw three or more at me with no heads up.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

You can't take BftBG units in a CAD. Only a Blood Host Detachment (BHD) or a Daemonkin formation.

 

Cultists in that example would be part of a Slaughtercult, not the CAD, as units cannot count as part of a Formation and a Detachment with the exception that a unit in a Daemonkin Formation can be part of a BHD.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Another crazy idea, what if you want to play, two slaughter cults?

 

Would that make you automatically generate two Blood Tithe points at the beginning of each turn?

 

I know there would be the additional tax of 1 optional detachment but with two maulerfiends it could work.

 

Yes, but you'd have to **** away 300pts on Possessed.

[Dysorange]

Yes this idea of two Blood Hosts detachment seems interesting, but the amount of Troops you must take makes it difficult to make work as a cohesive force.

 

I'll stick with one not to create any unnecessary debating!

 

Regarding the CAD I don't know what prevents anyone from taking a CAD of Daemonkin? The CAD seems to be available for every and any Codex or Army list as long as you can satisfy the 1HQ + 2Troops requirements. And the Daemonkin is a standalone thingy.

 

You just don't get any benefit other than re-rolling your Warlord Trait.

 

So I could take a Lord, two squads of Cultists and have my Daemonkin CAD.

 

Another crazy idea, what if you want to play, two slaughter cults?

 

Would that make you automatically generate two Blood Tithe points at the beginning of each turn?

 

I know there would be the additional tax of 1 optional detachment but with two maulerfiends it could work.

 

Yes, but you'd have to **** away 300pts on Possessed.

 

Haha yes that is a very bad point!

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

You can only take units from Khorne Daemonkin as part of a Khorne Daemonkin Formation (KDF). A unit that is part of a KDF cannot be part of another Detachment, except a BHD.

 

You can include a KDF, such as the Gorepack, alongside a CAD, but it is not part of the CAD.

 

Moot point anyway really as you have to have BftBG to benefit from Tithe Rewards.

[Kol Saresk]

You can't take BftBG units in a CAD. Only a Blood Host Detachment (BHD) or a Daemonkin formation.

 

Cultists in that example would be part of a Slaughtercult, not the CAD, as units cannot count as part of a Formation and a Detachment with the exception that a unit in a Daemonkin Formation can be part of a BHD.

“When choosing an army to play a game of Warhammer 40,000, there are two main ways of organising your collection. These are the Unbound method, which means taking whichever units you like, and the Battle-forged method, which is more rigid but has extra benefits. Both are described fully in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.

 

If you are using the Unbound method, simply use the datasheets later in this section that correspond to the models in your collection. If you are using the Battle-forged method, you will instead need to organise the models in your collection into Detachments. This is a fun process in its own right. The most common of these are the Combined Arms and Allied Detachments. Note that you can also include any of the Formations presented in this section as part of a Battle-forged army.

 

The Blood Host Detachment is a special type of Detachment that can be included in any Battle-forged army. Unlike the Detachments shown in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules, it has a Force Organisation Chart whose slots are a combination of specific Formations and Army List Entries instead of Battlefield Roles. However, it still has compulsory and optional elements, as[…]”

 

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex - Khorne Daemonkin.” Games Workshop Ltd, 2015-03-16. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

Could you point out the text that says Daemonkin units cannot be a part of a CAD?

[Quixus]

I didn't read through all 22 pages of this thread so it might have been mentioned before, but I find it weird that PAed marines cannot have heavy weapons. Havocs with autocannons seems pretty Khorny. I know they are in DoW 2 and I think I remember reading about them in GW publications as well. And CSM squads with a heavy weapon don't sound too unfitting for Khorne. It's not like you cannot reap a tally of blood with ranged weapons, especially things like heavy bolters and autocannons.

[Lucio]

You can only take units from Khorne Daemonkin as part of a Khorne Daemonkin Formation (KDF). A unit that is part of a KDF cannot be part of another Detachment, except a BHD.

 

You can include a KDF, such as the Gorepack, alongside a CAD, but it is not part of the CAD.

Not sure where this misunderstanding came from but first and foremost a Khorne Daemonkin is an army list and can take any of the units listed in the list as part of a CAD, Allied Detachment or an Unbound list.

 

Additionally you may optionally chose to field a Blood Host as your detachment, which consists of a series of formations. This detachment can be your only detachment in your army but it's not required. The Blood Host has a special rule which means the detachment benefits apply to the models in the formation which isn't usually rhe case

 

Finally, the formation datasheets are valid formations which can be taken stand alone as required

[Adra'Melek]

Yep, no idea where the idea you can't take a Daemonkin CAD has come from.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Formations are a special type of Detachment, each a specific grouping of units renowned for their effectiveness on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium. Whilst some Formations provide you with all the gaming information you will need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them simply to describe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific units together. Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain. Unless stated otherwise, each individual unit maintains its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a Formation.

 

 

There is no limit to the number of Detachments a Battle-forged army can includeand you can use any mixture of Detachments you have available, within the restrictions of the rules that follow. However, all of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment.

 

Rulebook.

 

Although units cannot normally belong to more than one Detachment, units from a Formation that is part of a Blood Host Detachment are an exception. They count as part of both their Formation and the Detachment, and have all associated Command Benefits and special rules.

 

Codex: Khorne Daemonkin.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

A CAD is a Detachment. A Formation is a Detachment. Ergo, a KDF is a Detachment. A unit cannot belong to more than one Detachment, except that a KDF can be part of a BHD.

 

The only way to take units from Codex: Khorne Daemonkin is in a KDF and a KDF can only be a standalone or part of a BHD.

[Adra'Melek]

Right. So a model is in a CAD and not in a formation. I fail to see the issue.

 

Edit: since when can KDK units only be taken in formations?

[Trokair]

There is nothing stopping you from taking a CAD of Demonkin.

 

Just because there are the special formations does not mean that all other Force Organisation methods don’t work. If you are using one of the campaign books or scenarios where there are other Force organisation charts then you can use them.

 

It is the same confusion as when the Necrons came out.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

On a re-reading, maybe my understanding is a bit wonky. I was of the impression that a KDF is the only way to take a unit from C:KD, but that's not entirely borne out by the text, though it appears to be hinted at.

[Dysorange]

Otherwise that would mean that Necrons could also only be taken as Decurion and not CAD?

 

That seems odd to me. Plus why would they bother tagging each and every unit by HQ, Troop, Heavy, Elite and Fast otherwise? It does not matter for the Blood Host.

[Kol Saresk]

Res, the Blood Host is a detachment made up of formations. What the rules point out is that normally, a formation would count as being its own detachment. The Blood Host Detachment negates that and allows for multiple formations to be in one detachment. None of that stops a KDK unit from being part of a CAD, which would be a separate detachment from the Blood Host.

 

Just like how one can take a Charnel Cohort and a Gorepack and have two separate detachments, in one army.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Res, the Blood Host is a detachment made up of formations. What the rules point out is that normally, a formation would count as being its own detachment. The Blood Host Detachment negates that and allows for multiple formations to be in one detachment. None of that stops a KDK unit from being part of a CAD, which would be a separate detachment from the Blood Host.

 

Just like how one can take a Charnel Cohort and a Gorepack and have two separate detachments, in one army.

 

I see that now.

[Kol Saresk]

I didn't read through all 22 pages of this thread so it might have been mentioned before, but I find it weird that PAed marines cannot have heavy weapons. Havocs with autocannons seems pretty Khorny. I know they are in DoW 2 and I think I remember reading about them in GW publications as well. And CSM squads with a heavy weapon don't sound too unfitting for Khorne. It's not like you cannot reap a tally of blood with ranged weapons, especially things like heavy bolters and autocannons.

They are Khorne-y. In fact, Havoc squads are known as the Teeth of Khorne. However, they do not jive with the Daemonkin.

 

Reason being is that the Daemonkin are a specific subfaction within those who worship Khorne. They are warbands who are devoted to manifesting the Daemons of Khorne and organize themselves into ways similar to how the armies of Khorne's daemons are organized. And since the Daemons of Khorne have nothing like a Havoc squad, neither do the Daemonkin.

[Quixus]

Interesting point. Khorne daemonkin don't have havocs, but they do have some ranged support in the form of Forgefiends and appropriately equipped Helbrutes. So I still think Teeth of Khorne should have been in the Codex.

[Scribe]

I dont. In a WE codex, 100%, in a CSM based Khornate force? Sure why not. However thematically they have no place in KDK.

 

Daemonkin are a different approach and theme however to a Khorne army. Its not even a CSM army and thats the distinction that needs to be made here. Its a Khorne army, not Chaos Space Marines.

 

Throughout the book one of the themes that is pushed (mechanically as well) is that Khorne cares not who dies. Havocs are a support consideration. They dont get up there and stab someone or increase the likelihood of being stabbed. They do not mirror a Daemonic unit in form and function.

 

One of the greatest joys any Chaos Lord can feel is to be ripped asunder as his flesh is possessed by a Bloodthirster. Marines are glad to die, if it will bring forth a lowly Bloodletter.

 

This is Khorne at his most self destructive and nihilistic. Support? Not here.

[Kol Saresk]

Exactly. Forgefiends, Defilers and Helbrutes are daemons in mechanical bodies. A daemon and a human in the case of the Helbrute.

 

To follow Scribe's post, the Codex even says that Raptors are looked at with disgust, exactly because they have no place according to the Scriptures of Slaughter. But many warbands put up with that because the Raptors bring so much carnage to the battlefield.

 

And it is similar with the Warp Talons, because the Warp Talons are seen as harbingers of a coming daemonic incursion because usually where they pop up out of the warp, a daemonic incursion isn't far behind.

[Scribe]

Yes another distinction is Soul Grinders, who are despised twofold, one for losing and being banished, and two for going to someone other than Khorne for power!

 

Khorne is all, the Daemons are seen as higher in the hierarchy, and there arent any ranged Khorne Daemons. :D