Khorne Daemonkin - Discussion, Tactics, Background

[Nehekhare]

due to the deepstriking rule saying 'you MUST be in reserse', the BftBG rule would need to specifically say that it's NOT reserves to counter-act it.

 

quoted for truth. This guy gets it.

 

[Kol Saresk]

The same the other minis that don't start the game in reserves; not in reserves. When the game starts, those models don't exist. And they won't exist unless you choose for them to exist. And when you choose they exist, you roll for scatter and they join the game wherever they land. They don't come from Reserves. Otherwise, they would have to be in there at the start of the game.

 

Now, while we all disagree on how it happens, we do agree on one thing: You come in swooping, you can use that first turn to change to gliding, and the next turn you land. Unless a FAQ is printed that changes it.

[Nehekhare]

They don't come from Reserves. Otherwise, they would have to be in there at the start of the game.

wrong, false quotation. now you're reverting to the same mistake I already corrected 2 pages ago - the start of the game itself isn't mentioned anywhere.

What the rules say is: "the unit must start the game in Reserve" and "They always begin the game in Reserve" (BRB135)

THEY must start in reserves, not be in reserves when the game itself starts.

 

we do agree on one thing: You come in swooping, you can use that first turn to change to gliding, and the next turn you land. Unless a FAQ is printed that changes it.

absolutely, but here's why this reserves thing is essential:

The deep strike rules don't mention moving (not directly, not outside of the movement phase), only placing models. But they refer to the reserve rules, where it clearly says "move".

FMCs must declare change of flight modes at the start of their "move". DS is only a move if it's from reserves.

Luckily, it always is.

[Adra'Melek]

My disagreement with Nehekhare is that the deepstrike rule state that when you "enter play" (I think that's the term) you have to pick either Gliding or Swooping. If you deepstrike you have to be Swooping.  If the deepstrike is the "move" then the beginning of the move is when you enter play.  These are simulateous events and therefore I don't think you can change at that point.

 

However, I do think that you can chance when you run, as long as you have choosen a mode earlier in the turn.

 

EDIT: although this is going round the houses a bit, my Bloodthirster should be here tonight! Can't wait

[Teetengee]

In the gw example, did they have it assault the next turn after the summon? Or mention swooping/gliding mode?

[Kol Saresk]

In the gw example, did they have it assault the next turn after the summon? Or mention swooping/gliding mode?

They didn't say. They conveniently stop reporting about the game when they summon the Bloodthirster and instead move on to its rules for the C: CD.

[Adra'Melek]

They did say it was summoned on turn 5 and killed Ghazghkull before the end of the game.  Could have been charged I suppose, and who knows how long the game went on, so no real indication.

[Bodacious2182]

Enough about rules, how about tactics?

 

I got my skulltaker edition the other day and played my first game against eldar with a slaughtercult and a charnel cohort. Here is what I learned.

 

The hounds are worth their weight. Scouting them up really messes with the enemy's target priority. I say take two squad of 8.

 

I deep struck two squad of blood letters and thanks to BftBG it was very liberating not having to worry about mishaps. I could be a little more daring with their positioning. If they died, who cares? two tithe points! If they got blasted next turn, who cares? two tithe points and they are keeping shots off my other guys. If they live furious charge and a tithe bonus will assure I wipe out whatever I assault.

 

I think Berzerkers are dang near useless. Why should I take them when I can run cheaper marines that have bolters and a CCW for two points per and combine them with the tithe bonus that gives them rage and furious charge? If they are getting charged then I failed in my positioning so I don't need counter attack. I have the ability to go to ground. I can use my bolters to double tap after I disembark from my rhinos. The tithe bonus, especially with the slaughtercult, makes them better than berzerkes, especially for the points.  Thier only saving grace is WS 5 and if you have the points take them, but I think more can be done with CSMs

 

I ran my lord as cheap as I could on a juggernaught with a sigil and goredrinker. I put him with a full squad of spawn so he wouldn't lose anything out on majority toughness. I think as long as you hug terrain it shouldn't be much of an issue. Goredrinker is nuts. I want to pair goredrinker with an axe of khorne so later in the game he a cheaper, faster abaddon. All it takes is 8 kills.

 

A squad of 8 bloodcrushers with a herald that gave hatred was a major beatstick. With all the target priority shenanigans these guys were able to move up the field and wreak havoc. I think they are a glass cannon, though. Enough shooting and they will fall pretty easy. That is why comboing them with other fast moving units like hounds works well.

 

If a rhino is being used don't mess with blowing smoke. You want them dead for that tithe point. Move them flat out for that extra 6 inches instead. A quick aside, if the enemy kills my rhino can my marines assault in my next turn? I remember there being a rules debate about this but I don't remember.

 

I used my cultists as objective campers but it brought up a really good issue of objective placement. I say place them in a potential mid field or entice a bias to one side and make sure the enemy gets it. Khorne Demonkin can move so fast that having units sitting in the back on objectives is a waste. Put those cultists up front early to get the blood tithe points for that army wide FNP or to summon some demons.

 

The tithe overall is great but not much past option 4. 5 and 6 are situational. I think if you can take advantage of some shooting with the skull cannon on some bunched up enemies then go for it. But summoning stuff that can't act for one or two turns is almost useless, not to mention sacrificing a character somewhere. 7 and 8 I think are really almost useless. Unless you can put a prince or thirster out on turn two, or one somehow, then they aren't going to have enough effect on the game to make it worth while. Besides, if you can get one out that early then the enemy is dying so fast you aren't going to need him or your models are dying so fast that putting even a thirster out there isn't going to make a difference. Coming in turn 3 and flying they might only effect two units. 

 

+1 attack characteristic will help your guys survive or finish subsequent rounds of assaults really nice. Army wide FNP is super awesome. If you know you are going to mass assault something the rage/furious charge tithe will smash the enemy and save you from having to buy berzerkers. 

 

I think the artifact armor on a flying demon prince would be cool but that is 250 points and would be too expensive by then.

 

Overall this codex is great and will take a lot of people off guard. As someone said elsewhere losing units really buffs your army

[Khornestar]

There's no way to charge out of a Rhino, unfortunately. Gotta wait a turn after disembarking no matter what.

[Megadoomer]

 

I think Berzerkers are dang near useless. Why should I take them when I can run cheaper marines that have bolters and a CCW for two points per and combine them with the tithe bonus that gives them rage and furious charge? If they are getting charged then I failed in my positioning so I don't need counter attack. I have the ability to go to ground. I can use my bolters to double tap after I disembark from my rhinos. The tithe bonus, especially with the slaughtercult, makes them better than berzerkes, especially for the points.  Thier only saving grace is WS 5 and if you have the points take them, but I think more can be done with CSMs

 

 

I somewhat disagree with this. A CSM with a CCW is 17pts a model. For 2pts more per model a Berskerker gives you:

 

WS5 - Hitting most things are 3's rather than 4's is a big deal, especially in a codex so melee centric

Fearless - No ATSKNF means your unit of expensive CSM's can easily be swepped off the board or fail a morale check and head for the hills. Berserkers don't need to worry about this. I never found the ability to Go to Ground to be better than having Fearless.

Furious Charge - Str 5 attacks, coupled with Rage is a scary thing. 

 

All that for 2pts a model. Yes, Bolters are nice but I think the point of this book is to get stuck in, not play like Codex Marines. And yes, you can get some of these bonuses for Blood Tithe points, but Berserkers allow you to not waste those points making "pseudo Berserkers" for a turn and spend them on other things like summoning.

 

I think Berserkers are the go to Troop Choice in this book. Cultists and Bloodletters have their place as well, but that place is mostly sending them to their death to draw some fire and generate some blood tithe. Berserkers get the job done after that first wave.

 

Just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

[Nehekhare]

My disagreement with Nehekhare is that the deepstrike rule state that when you "enter play" (I think that's the term) you have to pick either Gliding or Swooping. If you deepstrike you have to be Swooping.  If the deepstrike is the "move" then the beginning of the move is when you enter play.  These are simulateous events and therefore I don't think you can change at that point.

 

I think you mean BRB 68: "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves, then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode".

I'd say it refers to units "kept" in Reserves from the start of the game, so units placed in/arriving from reserves at a later time may need further clarification.

 

That's why the sentence that regulates DS follows immeadiately afterwards: "If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike, it always counts as being in Swooping mode". 

 

Change of flight modes must be declared "at the start of its move" (i.e. the DS deployment) - so it's exactly the same as in sentence 1!

 

This is actually not exclusive at all, since arriving happens before deployment: "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table [...] Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves" (BRB 135). No roll is needed for blood tithe, but the order of events stays the same.

[Lucio]

 

 

I think Berzerkers are dang near useless. Why should I take them when I can run cheaper marines that have bolters and a CCW for two points per and combine them with the tithe bonus that gives them rage and furious charge? If they are getting charged then I failed in my positioning so I don't need counter attack. I have the ability to go to ground. I can use my bolters to double tap after I disembark from my rhinos. The tithe bonus, especially with the slaughtercult, makes them better than berzerkes, especially for the points.  Thier only saving grace is WS 5 and if you have the points take them, but I think more can be done with CSMs

 

 

I somewhat disagree with this. A CSM with a CCW is 17pts a model. For 2pts more per model a Berskerker gives you:

 

WS5 - Hitting most things are 3's rather than 4's is a big deal, especially in a codex so melee centric

Fearless - No ATSKNF means your unit of expensive CSM's can easily be swepped off the board or fail a morale check and head for the hills. Berserkers don't need to worry about this. I never found the ability to Go to Ground to be better than having Fearless.

Furious Charge - Str 5 attacks, coupled with Rage is a scary thing. 

 

All that for 2pts a model. Yes, Bolters are nice but I think the point of this book is to get stuck in, not play like Codex Marines. And yes, you can get some of these bonuses for Blood Tithe points, but Berserkers allow you to not waste those points making "pseudo Berserkers" for a turn and spend them on other things like summoning.

 

I think Berserkers are the go to Troop Choice in this book. Cultists and Bloodletters have their place as well, but that place is mostly sending them to their death to draw some fire and generate some blood tithe. Berserkers get the job done after that first wave.

 

Just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

 

Whilst my experience of Berzerkers so far has been limited to Kill Team games, I have to agree that they seriously mess other Marines up in close combat, Hitting on 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound and 4 attacks on the charge is very nasty.

[Khornestar]

I was determined to avoid adding more fuel to the fire, but Helden on Warseer brings up an interesting point:

 

 

 

I disagree completely

Deep Strike Reserve =/= Deep Strike

Deep Strike Reserve is a place (ie where you keep your units with intention to deep strike)
The Tactical Objectives for Daemonkin (Objective 15: Murdercall) point out the difference between the two:

"Score 1 victory point at the end of your turn if, during your turn, at least one unit with Daemon of Khorne special rule arrived from Deep Strike Reserve or was summoned as a result of the Blood for the Blood God! special rule". 

First note that all summoned daemons via BftBG special rule arrive using Deep Strike, so there would be no need to mention it if Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserve

Second note the use of "FROM" Deep Strike Reserve. Deep Strike Reserve is a place not an action. Otherwise there'd be no reason to mention BftBG specifically as a separate thing. In Daemonkin Codex you can arrive via Deep Strike Reserve (if you kept a bloodthirster/prince or any other daemon in reserve) OR you can arrive via BftBG, which is different from Deep Strike Reserve.

Same reason they mention with Necron Deathmarks that their special rule only applies when arriving via Deep Strike Reserve and not Deep Strike via veil of Darkness or something (which is confirmed in the FAQ)

[Targetlock]

ugh tired of this debate, just hoping for an FAQ or something for a clarification of this.

[Trokair]

Regarding the Blood-forged Armour, is it worth it on a Lord on Juggernaut? As the Lord already has a 3+ it is a lot of point for Eternal Warrior and FNP. On a Daemon Prince it looks like a good deal but i am not so sure on a lord.

 

 

Has anybody used it on a lord yet? If so was its ability useful?

[Nehekhare]

 

"Score 1 victory point at the end of your turn if, during your turn, at least one unit with Daemon of Khorne special rule arrived from Deep Strike Reserve or was summoned as a result of the Blood for the Blood God! special rule".

already adressed that.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or may refer to:

• Inclusive or (Logical disjunction), a logical operation (e.g. "A or B or both")

 

 

Same reason they mention with Necron Deathmarks that their special rule only applies when arriving via Deep Strike Reserve and not Deep Strike via veil of Darkness or something (which is confirmed in the FAQ)

 

this is actually an argument FOR deep strike = DS reserves, because:

"If this unit is in Deep Strike Reserve, immediately after an enemy unit arrives from Deep Strike Reserve this unit may choose to immediately arrive using the rules for Deep Strike" (C:Necrons pg. 80)

used synonymously.

 

Also: hunters from hyperspace (same page) says "during the player turn in which this unit arrives from Deep Strike Reserve, [...]" - but the only possibility to DS during the opponent's player turn is the above, mentioning only DS, not DS reserves. Unless the two are synonymous, the use of "player turn" is redundant.  

[Scribe]

Regarding the Blood-forged Armour, is it worth it on a Lord on Juggernaut? As the Lord already has a 3+ it is a lot of point for Eternal Warrior and FNP. On a Daemon Prince it looks like a good deal but i am not so sure on a lord.

 

 

Has anybody used it on a lord yet? If so was its ability useful?

 

Eternal warrior matters a lot, FNP helps as well. Being able to skip out on S10 insta death is nice enough, and the Axe of Khorne is serviceable enough.

[Kraytirous]

 

The tithe overall is great but not much past option 4. 5 and 6 are situational. I think if you can take advantage of some shooting with the skull cannon on some bunched up enemies then go for it. But summoning stuff that can't act for one or two turns is almost useless, not to mention sacrificing a character somewhere. 7 and 8 I think are really almost useless. Unless you can put a prince or thirster out on turn two, or one somehow, then they aren't going to have enough effect on the game to make it worth while. Besides, if you can get one out that early then the enemy is dying so fast you aren't going to need him or your models are dying so fast that putting even a thirster out there isn't going to make a difference. Coming in turn 3 and flying they might only effect two units. 

 

 

Don't under-estimate the amount of tokens you can get from Blood Tithe. Every single unit that dies is a token. Your Helldrake killing that small unit of Devastators? Token. That rhino your plasma-gun popped? Token. Your opponent destroying your rhino? Token. It adds up really fast.

[Scribe]

Yes, for those who have not yet had a game, if you have a blood host, your Turn 2 charge also grants Furious Charge if you so choose, and thats assuming nothing died in either players T1, maybe you have FnP and FC, maybe you have +1A and FnP across that whole formation. At the end of my Apoc game (which we took to 8 sacred turns) I think only the last 2 I didnt have +1A or FnP, as there was just too little left on the table.

 

I also had my Lord in CC soaking up Challenges, but it really does add up fast.

 

Is summoning ever going to be my focus? I'm not sure it will, but its a nice option.

 

Considering the ease of getting FC, I dont see the need to go with berzerkers as the troops, as every point matters in the list.

 

EDIT:

 

I've settled for now on the following.

 

BT of Insensate Rage

Lord, Jugger, BF Armour, Axe of Khorne, Sigil or Aura

2 x 8 CSM, CCW, Rhinos

Possessed

2 x 5 Bikers

15 Flesh Hounds (or 3 x 5, I'm still partial to blobs...)

2 Maulers, Lasher

 

Speed, punch, ability to grind on units, and away we go.

[Kraytirous]

I'm wondering about the viability of grabbing two Bloodhost Detachments and, in essence, having two Slaughtercults. I want both a Khorne Lord on Juggy and a Herald on Blood Throne with Greater Locus. I know the points are a little rough, but I also REALLY like the change to Possessed getting Daemon of Khorne AND Mark of Khorne.

 

That way I can also guarantee +2 Blood Tithe tokens a turn.

 

The list proper would look like this...

 

Slaughtercult 1:

 

Blood Throne

 

Bloodletterx2 (8 strong each)

 

Possessed (8 strong)

 

Slaughtercult 2:

 

Khorne Lord

 

Bloodletterx2 (8 strong each)

 

Possessed (8 strong)

 

Chaos Spawn x5

 

Land Raider x2

 

Then I'd fill what's left with MSU cultists.

[Scribe]

The Landraider isnt coming from either slaughtercult, or Unbound?

[Kol Saresk]

That would have to be a rather large game as you're not only taking to Slaughtercults, but two auxilliary formations as well. It would be cheaper to just do one Slughtercult and then a Charnel Cohort, if you just want to have a Juggy Lord and a Blood Throne. Other than that, the only benefit other than more bodies on the tabletop would be the +2 Tithes a turn. And maybe up to three Tithe abilities a turn depending on how the ruling works out.

[minionboy]

To get back on topic, and off GW bashing, Has anyone gotten more battles with the codex?

 

I've played 5 games with the book so far and haven't lost one yet (though one was a tie to Tyranids). It's amazing...

 

The list i've been running is:

 

Slaughtercult:

Chaos Lord: lightning claw, power fist, Juggernaut of Khorne, sigil of corruption

8 Chaos Space Marines: bolt pistols, close combat weapons, in Rhino

8 Chaos Space Marines: bolt pistols, close combat weapons, in Rhino

5 Possessed

 

Lord of Slaughter:

Bloodthirster of Insatiate Rage

 

Gorepack:

5 Chaos Bikes: 1 meltagun

5 Chaos Bikes: 1 meltagun

5 Flesh Hounds

5 Flesh Hounds

5 Flesh Hounds

 

War Engines:

Maulerfiend: lasher tendrils

Maulerfiend: lasher tendrils

Maulerfiend

 

Though last game I dropped a set of Lasher Tendrils to change my lord to have the Sword of Endless Bloodshed and a power axe. So far every game I summon a blood thirster by turn 2-3, almost always have FNP on most of the units. Last game I summoned 2 Blood Thirsters and a squad of Bloodcrushers, it was a slaughter fest. I've had great luck with just overwhelming my opponent with fast assault units, and this list has those in droves. I've gone against a FMC spam list tailored to beat it, a combat Ork army tailored to beat it, sisters of battle (he went 3-1-2 at the LVO with the same army) and space marines. I've got another game against Space Marines scheduled, so we'll see how that goes, hopefully I'll get some more games against other Xenos in soon as well.

 

The Insatiate Rage thirster is an amazing insurance policy against enemy super heavies, and charging in simultaneously with a Maulerfiend against a Knight has been awesome.

[the jeske]

you went first when playing against tyranids ?

[Chaeron]

 

To get back on topic, and off GW bashing, Has anyone gotten more battles with the codex?

 

I've played 5 games with the book so far and haven't lost one yet (though one was a tie to Tyranids). It's amazing...

 

The list i've been running is:

 

Slaughtercult:

Chaos Lord: lightning claw, power fist, Juggernaut of Khorne, sigil of corruption

8 Chaos Space Marines: bolt pistols, close combat weapons, in Rhino

8 Chaos Space Marines: bolt pistols, close combat weapons, in Rhino

5 Possessed

 

Lord of Slaughter:

Bloodthirster of Insatiate Rage

 

Gorepack:

5 Chaos Bikes: 1 meltagun

5 Chaos Bikes: 1 meltagun

5 Flesh Hounds

5 Flesh Hounds

5 Flesh Hounds

 

War Engines:

Maulerfiend: lasher tendrils

Maulerfiend: lasher tendrils

Maulerfiend

 

Though last game I dropped a set of Lasher Tendrils to change my lord to have the Sword of Endless Bloodshed and a power axe. So far every game I summon a blood thirster by turn 2-3, almost always have FNP on most of the units. Last game I summoned 2 Blood Thirsters and a squad of Bloodcrushers, it was a slaughter fest. I've had great luck with just overwhelming my opponent with fast assault units, and this list has those in droves. I've gone against a FMC spam list tailored to beat it, a combat Ork army tailored to beat it, sisters of battle (he went 3-1-2 at the LVO with the same army) and space marines. I've got another game against Space Marines scheduled, so we'll see how that goes, hopefully I'll get some more games against other Xenos in soon as well.

 

The Insatiate Rage thirster is an amazing insurance policy against enemy super heavies, and charging in simultaneously with a Maulerfiend against a Knight has been awesome.

 

 

Is that at 1850pts? I like the idea of it though!