Starting Out 3: Sicarian Infiltrators and Ruststalkers

[Brother Amarel]

Do we think that groups of 5 are large enough to weather fire before Assaulting?

 

Even with 2W, FNP and likely Turn 2 Charge, they're only T3 and can be ID'ed by Autocannons with no saves.

I don't, no. But each extra one is so expensive (for the flaws that you list). It's why I'm leaning towards Infiltrators for the aura, to give them a use if charging isn't a particularly viable option.

[Aethernitas]

I still think both Sicarian units are best used as counter-charger. That way I can make full use of the +3 BS and +2 BS doctrina imperatives without suffering from the WS mali. Keep the Infiltrators close behind your frontlines for their aura and punish them for failing a charge or if they manage to charge your Rangers/Vanguard charge into that combat without worrying about grenades. Even Ruststalker profit from this as you get fewer Ruststalkers into base contact and more will live to really take advantage of their AP2 weapons.

If you additionally fire of your +3 WS Doctrina MEQ will only hit your Infiltrators on 5+ so... thats good I guess.

[Zembar]

Do we think that groups of 5 are large enough to weather fire before Assaulting?

Even with 2W, FNP and likely Turn 2 Charge, they're only T3 and can be ID'ed by Autocannons with no saves.

No saves isn't 100% true, they do have 6++...

[Vel'Cona]

Hmm, I'm still not sure about Infiltrators vs. Ruststalkers for melee champion.  Mathhammer away!  (note: I always round up, give the benefit to the unit being tested)

 

5 Ruststalkers (Transonic Razor and Chordclaw)= 4 attacks each (2 base, +1 charging, +1 dual melee weapons), Princeps has 5 attacks, all attacks have AP5 unless a "6" is rolled To Wound, then AP2; 1 attack per model gets Fleshbane

5 Infiltrators (Stubcarbines and Power Swords)= 3 attacks each (2 base, +1 charging), Princeps has 4 attacks, all attacks have AP3

5 Infiltrators (Flechette Blasters and Taser Goads)= 4 attacks each (2 base, +1 charging, +1 dual melee weapons), Princeps has 5 attacks, all attacks have AP-

 

Ruststalkers charge Tactical Marines w/ 21 attacks, 8 normal hits and 3 Fleshbane hits (WS4 vs. WS4 rounded up), 6 normal wounds (S5 vs. T4) and 3 Fleshbane (2+), Transonic makes 1 wound AP2, space marines save 5 of the AP5 wounds= 4 dead marines

 

Infiltrators (Stubs and PS) charge Tactical Marines w/ 16 attacks, 11 hits (WS4 vs. WS3), 6 wounds at AP3 = 6 dead marines

 

Infiltrators (Blasters and Goads) charge Tactical Marines w/ 21 attacks, 14 hits (WS4 vs. WS3), 12 wounds (S6 vs. T4), space marines save 8 of the 12 = 4 dead marines

 

 

Hmm, that's interesting.  It seems that Infiltrators are better vs. MEQ with their standard equip, but both units are equally effective in the other configs.  For sake of argument, let's look at Ruststalkers w/ Transonic Blades:

 

Same # of attacks, still Transonic (yup) and AP5

Ruststalkers (Blades) charge Tactical Marines w/ 21 attacks, 11 hits (WS4 vs. WS4), 9 wounds (S6 vs. T4), 1 AP2 wound and 8 normal wounds, space marines save 5 of the 8 = 4 dead marines

 

 

This is also interesting, since Transonic Blades give the Ruststalkers the same S6 as Taser Goad Infiltrators.  Maybe they're not a crap upgrade after all (though you do still lose assault grenades and can't hurt RA 13+).

 

In the other scenario, the issue will be that Infiltrators w/ default equip are better at killing marines, but are pathetic for dealing with tanks.  Standard Ruststalkers aren't quite as good in melee, but have Haywire for tank killing.  If you give the Infiltrators the Flechette Blaster + Taser Goad combo, they lose a bit of killing power but can now punch most tanks (and have more attacks to do so).

 

TL:DR, Infiltrators are better against MEQ stock, but Ruststalkers can handle more targets.

[Aethernitas]

Hmm, I'm still not sure about Infiltrators vs. Ruststalkers for melee champion.  Mathhammer away!  (note: I always round up, give the benefit to the unit being tested)

 

5 Ruststalkers (Transonic Razor and Chordclaw)= 4 attacks each (2 base, +1 charging, +1 dual melee weapons), Princeps has 5 attacks, all attacks have AP5 unless a "6" is rolled To Wound, then AP2; 1 attack per model gets Fleshbane

5 Infiltrators (Stubcarbines and Power Swords)= 3 attacks each (2 base, +1 charging), Princeps has 4 attacks, all attacks have AP3

5 Infiltrators (Flechette Blasters and Taser Goads)= 4 attacks each (2 base, +1 charging, +1 dual melee weapons), Princeps has 5 attacks, all attacks have AP-

 

Ruststalkers charge Tactical Marines w/ 21 attacks, 8 normal hits and 3 Fleshbane hits (WS4 vs. WS4 rounded up), 6 normal wounds (S5 vs. T4) and 3 Fleshbane (2+), Transonic makes 1 wound AP2, space marines save 5 of the AP5 wounds= 4 dead marines

 

Infiltrators (Stubs and PS) charge Tactical Marines w/ 16 attacks, 11 hits (WS4 vs. WS3), 6 wounds at AP3 = 6 dead marines

 

Infiltrators (Blasters and Goads) charge Tactical Marines w/ 21 attacks, 14 hits (WS4 vs. WS3), 12 wounds (S6 vs. T4), space marines save 8 of the 12 = 4 dead marines

 

 

Hmm, that's interesting.  It seems that Infiltrators are better vs. MEQ with their standard equip, but both units are equally effective in the other configs.  For sake of argument, let's look at Ruststalkers w/ Transonic Blades:

 

Same # of attacks, still Transonic (yup) and AP5

Ruststalkers (Blades) charge Tactical Marines w/ 21 attacks, 11 hits (WS4 vs. WS4), 9 wounds (S6 vs. T4), 1 AP2 wound and 8 normal wounds, space marines save 5 of the 8 = 4 dead marines

 

 

This is also interesting, since Transonic Blades give the Ruststalkers the same S6 as Taser Goad Infiltrators.  Maybe they're not a crap upgrade after all (though you do still lose assault grenades and can't hurt RA 13+).

 

In the other scenario, the issue will be that Infiltrators w/ default equip are better at killing marines, but are pathetic for dealing with tanks.  Standard Ruststalkers aren't quite as good in melee, but have Haywire for tank killing.  If you give the Infiltrators the Flechette Blaster + Taser Goad combo, they lose a bit of killing power but can now punch most tanks (and have more attacks to do so).

 

TL:DR, Infiltrators are better against MEQ stock, but Ruststalkers can handle more targets.

 

To be clear - I exclusivly talk about the Infiltrators with taser goads. The other configuration is not nearly as good.

 

You forgot the 3,5 taser attacks which equal another 10,5 additional hits with St6. You also seem to ignore that changing the Ruststalkers weapon to the Transonic blades removes their biggest asset and their only safing grace - the multi purpose grenades.

 

Also saying that Infiltrators are "pathetic" when dealing with tanks when they actually beat everything apart from Land Raiders is kinda comical.

 

Last but not least there is still the fact that the Infiltrators have the debuff-aura, they can outflank and infiltrate and they have stealth so they are also more flexibel, can be used defensivly and are more resilient due to higher saves.

 

I already did the math above so if anyone finds any oversights or mistakes please correct me. Right now it still stands that the only thing Ruststalkers are better against are Land Raiders, Walker with 13 front and TEQ if they survive into the second combatround.

 

btw none of my calculation include the average 5 wounds against MEQ that the Infiltrators can do with their flechettes...

[CommodusXIII]

Welp, I've been going back and forth on the two units since they were spoiled, since I really want to make the most of an expensive box set.  I'll weight in thusly:

 

[...]

 

I'm surprised you didn't include Neurostatic Aura as a plus for the Infilitrators - being able to mess around with nearby enemies is a huge bonus that can be taken advantage of by other supporting units in the backfield.

[Vel'Cona]

Good point, CommodusXIII.  I've included Neurostatic Aura in my brief review, among a few other adjustments.

 

On the other topic, I suppose Mathammer isn't my strong suit.  I definitely missed the Taser rule (oops!) in my analysis, and I suppose I did overrate the value of Haywire a bit.  Even so, I don't think losing the grenades for twin Transonic Blades is as big of a deal for Ruststalkers as we first thought, since effectively they have the same stats as Infiltrators with Taser Goads in that config.  The bigger issue for me regarding Blade Ruststalkers and Infiltrators in general is the loss of assault grenades, which is something I suppose we'll have to live with.

 

That said, I think we can agree that Infiltrators are certainly the better choice simply thanks to their flexible deployment; I really can't see a use for Ruststalkers until we get a native transport (or unless we're using allies, and even then there are better options).

[Kilofix]

It's too bad the Killcade favors Rusts instead of Infils.

[Sawtooth]

I'm trying to plot evil close combat things involving Vanguard and Infiltrator debuffs.

[Aethernitas]

It's too bad the Killcade favors Rusts instead of Infils.

I think it's kinda awesome as it offsets some of the Ruststalkers bigger weaknesses. The electrostatic aura on the Rusties is HUGE and their formation special rule is just brutal and offsets them not beeing able to outflank. With a average move+run+charge distance of about 28 inches I can live with that

edit: I totally missread that Malignant Susurrations special rule of the formation. No Electrostatic Aura for the Rusties :\

[BassWave]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned how well infiltrators synergize with blind weapons. -1 initiative makes it easier to cause blind. After being blinded, neurostatic aura brings bs/ws down to zero which means no over watch and auto hits in cc with no retaliation.

 

And no, neurostatic aura doesn't reduce to a minimum of 1 on any stat, so totally possible.

[Zembar]

But the rules say to apply "set" modifiers last. So while you do apply -1 ws/bs, it's only set to 1 after that. That's literally on the first page of the core rules.

[BassWave]

My mistake, I had forgotten that small detail. Still, blind is great with them seeing how marines have a 50/50 chance to fail. Meanwhile, orks, necrons, orks and tau will have a very bad time haha :p

[doctorbored]

I'm tempted to take the Killclade with a 10-man unit of Infiltrators (to max out potential debuff bubble) and min squads of Ruststalkers, but the whole thing passes 800 clams really quick.

 

The key to both? Screening. On their own, these units will get shot up, neutered, or blasted apart by a good overwatch. Putting Vanguard ahead of them to give a cover-save and to create a wall of -1 Toughness for your enemies, as well as soak up overwatch (even if they don't make the charge, you can still eat that overwatch on a cheaper unit) to allow your Infiltrators and Ruststalkers to get into the charge. 

 

The other big melee unit is the Dragoons. You could also cover with Dragoons, but since the Dragoons have such a big footprint, you may end up actually denying your Ruststalkers their impact by blocking how many models you could get into proper base contact with, depending on the enemy.

 

I personally still like the Transonic Blades Ruststalkers, and will run one squad with a Princeps with Chordclaw and Prehensile Dataspike. The Spike gives me that little bit of haywire so they don't get locked in combat with a walker, and that s6 on the charge (don't forget Furious Charge) puts them on the same strength level as the Infiltrators, at least for that first turn. Yeah, they lose grenades, but with area terrain no longer a thing, I find myself less concerned about that in this edition.

[Aethernitas]

Muahaha just thought about the vanguard-screen you mentions doctorbored. If you screen your army with those and a single one survives the first round of combat you can countercharge with Taser-Infiltrators while the opponents unit gets -1 on pretty much everything important (Initiative, WS, toughness) and instagib anything that is MEQ including characters and denying any form of FnP shenanigans :D

[Brother Amarel]

Muahaha just thought about the vanguard-screen you mentions doctorbored. If you screen your army with those and a single one survives the first round of combat you can countercharge with Taser-Infiltrators while the opponents unit gets -1 on pretty much everything important (Initiative, WS, toughness) and instagib anything that is MEQ including characters and denying any form of FnP shenanigans

I do think that if you're going to invest even a little heavily in Infiltrators / Ruststalkers, the Vanguard really start to come into their own as a decent choice over Rangers.

[Vel'Cona]

It's almost as if GW managed to release a small, concentrated codex with a surprisingly high number of options and built-in synergy, not to mention ally capability. But we won't admit that in public, right?

[jeffersonian000]

The answer is in the name: Vanguard are the leading elements of an army or navy, with the role of initiating battle so that the trailing heavier elements can arrive in formation.

 

Using Skitarii Vanguard to escort in your dedicated CC units is actually how it's supposed to be done, while the Rangers, Striders, and Onagers support them with fire.

 

SJ

[Brother Amarel]

It's almost as if GW managed to release a small, concentrated codex with a surprisingly high number of options and built-in synergy, not to mention ally capability. But we won't admit that in public, right?

Sssshhh... This could break the internet!

[Aethernitas]

It's almost as if GW managed to release a small, concentrated codex with a surprisingly high number of options and built-in synergy, not to mention ally capability. But we won't admit that in public, right?

And I 'm very happy about that but at the same time it makes me very sad that they couldn't manage that half a year ago when they released the "fixed" (as in castrated) Grey Knight Codex :) :(

[Brother Amarel]

Well, looks like the Eldar previews in the new WD have now confirmed that neither Infiltrators or Ruststalkers will be seeing the table. So that's one less decision to make :silverlining: :).

[Vel'Cona]

Let's not lose all hope yet, Amarel!  These are just rumor/previews with no points costs, unit entries, or even weapon profiles included.  A lot could change when the actual 'dex lands!

[Brother Amarel]

Let's not lose all hope yet, Amarel!  These are just rumor/previews with no points costs, unit entries, or even weapon profiles included.  A lot could change when the actual 'dex lands!

 

We've got a bit more than that confirmed via WD - 6 Jetbikes (T4, 3+, Jink & Jump-Shoot-Jump) with Scatter Lasers (S6, Heavy 4) are just under the cost of 5 Infiltrators. The sky might not be falling, but it's definitely bowing a bit in the middle ;).

[heron]

Let's not lose all hope yet, Amarel! These are just rumor/previews with no points costs, unit entries, or even weapon profiles included. A lot could change when the actual 'dex lands!

We've got a bit more than that confirmed via WD - 6 Jetbikes (T4, 3+, Jink & Jump-Shoot-Jump) with Scatter Lasers (S6, Heavy 4) are just under the cost of 5 Infiltrators. The sky might not be falling, but it's definitely bowing a bit in the middle .

Certainly makes that Heavy Phosphor Blaster seem like a good option for a squad of Onagers... Plus it drops their cover save for any subsequent shots to clear them off...

[abraxus]

Or just blast the skimmers with the Icarus array...