Starting Out 3: Sicarian Infiltrators and Ruststalkers

[Vash]

I don't know yet to be honest. I have only played 1000 pts. 
At this points they survive more than enough against Astra Militarum veteran units shooting at them with heavy bolters and plasma guns. Now were I play we have a good amount of terrain, able to block line of sight or provide enough cover for the unit. 

With their additional 3" move, they can reach good positions and cover. 

 

I'll be using two 5-man units, one of each so speak, in my full 2000 pts army. I think they can stand on their own as a small unit. 

Smaller foot print and less of a target priority for the enemy. 

[Vel'Cona]

Agreed, that's my thought too.  Taking a big unit is nice for ablative wounds, but it also makes them expensive and an obvious target.  If you keep the unit small, it's easier to take advantage of terrain and avoid bloating their points cost too much.  If you want to take more, I'd say Vash has the right idea with going for a second or even third unit, as this helps to spread out the disruption and forces the opponent to split his focus; at that point, one unit is likely to get through.

[marshall Egregorius]

question. if one magos wanted to use the rustalker princeps head on his infiltrator princeps body/weapons/etc for rule of cool purposes would any of you have an objection?

[Aethernitas]

question. if one magos wanted to use the rustalker princeps head on his infiltrator princeps body/weapons/etc for rule of cool purposes would any of you have an objection?

 

I don't see why anyone should. If you use either Infiltrators or Ruststalkers I wouldn't even care if you just used Ruststalkers to proxy Infiltrators. In Armies with both units I would prefer an easy way to distinguish them but either way I see no harm in a Princeps choosing a different kybernetic head ;)

[marshall Egregorius]

does the infiltrator princeps with a tazer goad need to use a flechette blaster? because the flechettes seem to be crappy compared to the stubcarbine

[Marshal Ommadon]

Yes.  For both squads its either they ALL replace their weapons or they ALL don't.  I wouldn't underestimate the Flechette Blaster just because its S2.

[Aethernitas]

does the infiltrator princeps with a tazer goad need to use a flechette blaster? because the flechettes seem to be crappy compared to the stubcarbine

 

Rest assured - the flechettes do the same amount of wounds on MEQ as the carbines (a five man unit does 5 wounds with carbines and flechette alike). The only problem is they can't wound toughness 6 or up. Thats a fair trade for one of the most amazing cc-weapons this side of the galaxy :P

[marshall Egregorius]

does the infiltrator princeps with a tazer goad need to use a flechette blaster? because the flechettes seem to be crappy compared to the stubcarbine

Rest assured - the flechettes do the same amount of wounds on MEQ as the carbines (a five man unit does 5 wounds with carbines and flechette alike). The only problem is they can't wound toughness 6 or up. Thats a fair trade for one of the most amazing cc-weapons this side of the galaxy

Roger that, thank you.

[caladancid]

Is it really so bad to take the blades vs. razor/claw/grenades? It seems like the strength bonus would be really helpful, particularly if you charge into a unit tied up with Vanguards.

[marshall Egregorius]

Is it really so bad to take the blades vs. razor/claw/grenades? It seems like the strength bonus would be really helpful, particularly if you charge into a unit tied up with Vanguards.

 

Not if that charge is through/into cover

[Aethernitas]

 

Is it really so bad to take the blades vs. razor/claw/grenades? It seems like the strength bonus would be really helpful, particularly if you charge into a unit tied up with Vanguards.

 

Not if that charge is through/into cover

 

 

Which is one of the greatest strength Rustalkers have over Infiltrators. That and the fact that with the claws they can wound even Wk easily and the grenades are also haywire and pseudo-poison. Giving all that up for S6 on the charge imo makes them not worth taking over Infiltrators who always hit on S6, do an unholy amount of wounds, always hit MEQ on 3+, can outflank and if not charging into cover even strike before MEQ.

[caladancid]

Definitely charging into cover is the advantage. Does that really happen so often that it makes assault grenades paramount? It hasn't in my experience, and I do play on tables with terrain.

 

I don't think I would try to send them after a WK, it seems like they would vanish on the way up.

 

I do think that keeping the standard loadout makes them more jack of all trades, but that very rarely is a good thing for a unit.

[Vash]

Definitely charging into cover is the advantage. Does that really happen so often that it makes assault grenades paramount? It hasn't in my experience, and I do play on tables with terrain.

 

I don't think I would try to send them after a WK, it seems like they would vanish on the way up.

 

I do think that keeping the standard loadout makes them more jack of all trades, but that very rarely is a good thing for a unit.

Charging into terrain is really common where I play. We always play with random amount of terrain (1D3 per 2'x2', roughly 12 pieces on an average roll). 

I would say its up to your local meta when it comes to terrain if the grenades are useful most of the times or not. Also, factor in the local game style. 

 

Against a WK... thats more of a last resort thing I would guess. And if you could catch him "off guard" for some reason, they could be very useful against the WK, but not enough. 

[Aethernitas]

Definitely charging into cover is the advantage. Does that really happen so often that it makes assault grenades paramount? It hasn't in my experience, and I do play on tables with terrain.

 

I don't think I would try to send them after a WK, it seems like they would vanish on the way up.

 

I do think that keeping the standard loadout makes them more jack of all trades, but that very rarely is a good thing for a unit.

 

Just to be clear - I'm not advocating using Ruststalkers against WK. I just wanted to highlight their effectivness against even toughness 7+ and the first thing that came to mind was the WK ;)

 

About the grenades I have to agree with Vash - in our gaming group it's also quite common to charge through cover. Especially since you just have to move through cover at any point of the charge move to be reduced to initiative one, not just if the charged unit stands in cover.

 

I find that the standard loadout makes them the specialists over the infiltrators, The infiltrators do pretty much everything better than the dual-transonic blade Ruststalkers so the Razoer/claw/greande loadout helps them to differentiate themselves by beeing able to engage targets the Infiltrators can't. Those are already few and far between so that makes them the specialists for me.

[caladancid]

To me the dual blades still fill a different purpose.

 

Taser goads are great for light armored hordes, and with lucky rolling can cause enough hits and wounds that saves will be failed, so they can be good versus more heavily armored targets.

 

The dual blades are good versus the MEQs and TEQs. I know people will say that the AP2 first round wounds rely on hot dice, but not too much more than the taser goads' multiple hits. All of those things are why transonic weapons in general are good.

 

The claw is good for one attack, while the help from the strength bonus applies to all of the attacks being made. It seems to me that the dual blades are good for multiple wound infantry or higher toughness MEQs or TEQs.

 

I think I will test out the razors and claws, but so far my dual blades have been holding there own. More testing probably needed, good input from everyone so far though.

[Aethernitas]

Taser goads are great for light armored hordes, and with lucky rolling can cause enough hits and wounds that saves will be failed, so they can be good versus more heavily armored targets.

 

The dual blades are good versus the MEQs and TEQs. I know people will say that the AP2 first round wounds rely on hot dice, but not too much more than the taser goads' multiple hits. All of those things are why transonic weapons in general are good.

 

The claw is good for one attack, while the help from the strength bonus applies to all of the attacks being made. It seems to me that the dual blades are good for multiple wound infantry or higher toughness MEQs or TEQs.

 

I think I will test out the razors and claws, but so far my dual blades have been holding there own. More testing probably needed, good input from everyone so far though.

 

Lets have a look at 5 Infiltrators with goads versus Ruststalkers with dual blades in the first and second round of combat.

 

first round charging:

Infiltrators kill 2,916 TEQ and 5,834 MEQ

Ruststalkers kill 2,334 TEQ and 5,250 MEQ

 

second round:

Infiltrators kill 2,223 TEQ and 4,445 MEQ

Ruststalkers kill 3,556 TEQ and 5,334 MEQ

 

So in the first round the Infiltrators will on average kill more TEQ and MEQ. Now in the second round the numbers seem to switch as now Ruststalkers are in the lead but not as far as one would expect with AP2. Why I say it "seems" like they are in the lead is cuz the above numbers only apply if both units charge through cover. If they charge a unit in the open the Infiltrators reduce the enemies initiative to 3 so they do all their wounds BEFORE the enemy MEQ/TEQ can even strike back. If you do the same math against hammernators the Ruststalkers become even worse because of the 3++ while the Infiltrators perform exactly the same.

 

I hope that helps to understand why I'm so adamant about the only real pros for Ruststalkers beeing their grenades for haywiring AV13+ vehicles and charging into cover.

[caladancid]

Yeah it is good to see numbers, very helpful to discussion.

 

A couple questions, did you include the extra attacks from the Ruststalker princeps with chordclaw and mindspike? Also was it the increased hits from the Infiltrators that did it? How many armor saves were made in each case?

 

Did you run the numbers for that same combat with the razors and claws?  I do understand is your point is that Ruststalkers shouldn't be used outside of the two situations you listen, I am just curious.

[Marshal Ommadon]

I totally agree that Ruststalkers have a limited purpose, but you'll be taking at least one squad to use the Battle Maniple formation. 

 

Yes Math-Hammer can point out that Ruststalkers are not the most efficient use of points, but c'mon they just look to damn cool not to take at least one squad.  I'm sure in a game you can squeeze out more uses.

 

Not everything Math-Hammer spits out is atypical...

[Aethernitas]

Yeah it is good to see numbers, very helpful to discussion.

A couple questions, did you include the extra attacks from the Ruststalker princeps with chordclaw and mindspike? Also was it the increased hits from the Infiltrators that did it? How many armor saves were made in each case?

Did you run the numbers for that same combat with the razors and claws? I do understand is your point is that Ruststalkers shouldn't be used outside of the two situations you listen, I am just curious.

I wanted to keep it very basic so I calculated it with an all goads/all dual blades loadout (even for the princeps) but I added the extra attack so no chordclaw or mindspike. The additional hits for the Infiltrators make all the difference. They generally hit on 3+ instead of 4+ (like the ruststalkers) against MEQ AND they produce even more extra attacks due to the taser rule. Just to emphasize how big the difference is: Infiltrators have 21 attacks, hit with 14, 3,5 of those produce 2 additional hits (7 total) so they actually hit as many attacks as they originally had. Ruststalkers also have 21 attacks, and hit with 10,5 of them.

I calculated the failed armoursaves on average - so 1 in 3 MEQ failed his save and 1 in 6 TEQ failed his. In case of the TEQ I obciously accounted for the 5++ against the AP2 attacks.

The numbers on Ruststalkers with Razor + claw:

first round charging:

2,112 TEQ and 3,638 MEQ

second round:

3,223 TEQ and 4,834 MEQ

I totally agree that Ruststalkers have a limited purpose, but you'll be taking at least one squad to use the Battle Maniple formation.

Yes Math-Hammer can point out that Ruststalkers are not the most efficient use of points, but c'mon they just look to damn cool not to take at least one squad. I'm sure in a game you can squeeze out more uses.

Not everything Math-Hammer spits out is atypical...

Don't get me wrong - I will also field Ruststalkers because I love their looks and even if their applications are narrower they are still there and should be covered in an TAC army like mine. I love math to help my decision-making but I'm also heavily into the fluff so that often takes priority

edit: Sorry for the double-post. Can I somehow... "fuse" the posts?

[Aethernitas]

<delete>

[caladancid]

That is really good info to have. Thanks for running those numbers!

 

I will definitely have both, the only question now is do I go with 10 man or 5 man units.

 

Also yes the rule of cool can often trump numbers, but it is nice to have the numbers in the first place!

[marshall Egregorius]

I totally agree that Ruststalkers have a limited purpose, but you'll be taking at least one squad to use the Battle Maniple formation.

Yes Math-Hammer can point out that Ruststalkers are not the most efficient use of points, but c'mon they just look to damn cool not to take at least one squad. I'm sure in a game you can squeeze out more uses.

Not everything Math-Hammer spits out is atypical...

Don't get me wrong - I will also field Ruststalkers because I love their looks and even if their applications are narrower they are still there and should be covered in an TAC army like mine. I love math to help my decision-making but I'm also heavily into the fluff so that often takes priority

edit: Sorry for the double-post. Can I somehow... "fuse" the posts?

*clang of bells* By the power of editing, the Omnissiah grants you the right to fuse data, and then delete your second posting. *clang of bells*

[Marshal Ommadon]

I just realized how "un-Mechanicus" shunning Math-Hammer is! As penance I will de-frag 40 hard-drives!

[d@n]

with all of the inv saves and cover saves of vehicles i think the haywire grenades are a massive plus for the rust stalkers

[Aethernitas]

with all of the inv saves and cover saves of vehicles i think the haywire grenades are a massive plus for the rust stalkers

 

Thankfully melee attacks have the ignore cover-special rule so need for the grenades there. Apart from daemons many vehicles like the WK or contemptors also loose or lower their invul-safe in melee.