Zhukov Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Hey, Since 7th I haven't really bothered playing any tournaments as I found the game in a pretty bad state. It's getting better since some months, so I'm sorta back to playing competitive again now and then. Anyways, I went to a 1 day, 3 game tournament last weekend and faced some decently nasty lists so figured I could write battle reports of them. I'm always incredibly concentrated while playing and basicly can't get myself to take a lot of pictures during the games. Thankfully I managed to take 1 of each battle each so I'll describe the battles of those. I'm not going to attempt writing in an entertaining way, but I'm trying to describe what's going through my head when playing the battles to hopefully learn people a thing or two! Now, I had 1 problem and that's the fact that I can't really field a competitive army at the moment, as I haven't bothered updating my armies for competitive play in 7th. As a result I went with this list: Chaos Lord; MoN, Bike, Poweraxe 2x 5 Plague Marines; 2x melta, meltabomb, rhino with dozer blade 2x 5 Plague Marines; 2x melta, meltabomb, rhino with dozer blade 2x 5 Spawn; MoN 1x3 Obliterators; MoN Allied Imperial Knight Paladin Total: 1847 Pro's of this list: Decently hard to remove, decent mobility and really good Objective Secured presence. It also has the tools to deal with most things to some extent. Con's of this list: The damage output is severly lacking and no Anti-air at all. I have tools, but not enough of them basicly. Overall the list is overpriced, it felt like playing with 1700 points or something. Imperial Knight suffers from having to deploy 12" away from the rest of the army and not really being able to come within 6" during the game. GAME 1 VERSUS SCREAMERSTAR + IMPERIAL KNIGHTS Oppenents list: Fateweaver 3 or 4 Heralds of Tzeentch on Disc (grimoire, portal) 10 Horrors 3 Nurglings 9 Screamers of Tzeentch Imperial Knight Paladin Imperial Knight Errant So yeah, Screamerstar + 2 allied Imperial Knights. Deployment: Table Quarters. Missions: Objectives in the middle of each quarter + a 5th one in the middle of the board (primary, 2 vp's each), select one opposing battlefield role, gain 1 vp for each one killed (secondary, I chose HQ, he Troops), holding table quarters/holding 1 selected piece of terrain/keeping cheapest unit alive (tertiary objectives, 1 vp each) Picture of board taken around the end of the game (I suggest keeping the pictures in a seperate tab while reading): http://image.bolterandchainsword.com/uploads/gallery/album_10631/gallery_42082_10631_448819.jpg He got Cursed Earth among some other powers, so his screamerstar will have a 2++ obviously, yay. I rolled the infiltrating warlord trait from the strategic table in the rulebook. He deployed first and made me go first I believe. He deployed in the North East corner. His 2 knights were deployement in front of the Rhino to the east pretty much. The rest of his force was deployement more to the left, 12" from the Knights. Nurglings in reserve. I deployed 2 Rhinos with the Melta Plague Squads, unit of Obliterators in South West ruïn (2nd level) and 1 unit of spawn North of my Quarter. I reserved the other 2 rhinos and infiltrated the Spawn + Lord (and maybe also the melta squads). Oh, my Knight deployed to the west of my Quarter, basicly facing his 2 Knights! Thoughts up to this point: I'm hoping to trade my Knight for 1 of his and tying up his Screamerstar with my spawn. His Screamerstar can basicly kill my whole army except for the Spawn. His Knights can also kill my whole army lol. If I can keep his Knights busy for a bit and tie his Star, then I should be able to win primary and tertiary with my 8 objective secured units versus his 2! 1st turn: Night Fight was on, giving his screamerstar and Knights a 3+ cover save, making my little shooting rather ineffective. My Spawn and lord moved up North, my 2 Rhinos with melta Plagues towards the middle. He shoots a bit with his Knights, does nothing to my Knight I believe. His screamerstar moves up, summon 10 Plaguebearers and are Grimoired + Cursed Earth (whole game these 2 were on, so wont mention it anymore, perma 2++ re-rollable basicly). 2nd turn: His Screamerstar and Plaguebearers were too close to my Spawn, really big mistake. I could not only tie up his screamerstar now, I could multicharge them with my 10 Spawn, killing Plaguebearers and winning combat that way. This made the screamers lose 3 models due to instability, making him get tied up even longer. Plaguebeaerers rolled double 1 for their leadership, so his squad was back at full strenght, making me able to repeat the same process next turn Basicly, 1 squad of Spawn was able now to tie up his screamerstar for the rest of the game, which you can see on picture (North West). My Imperial Knight shot 2 Hull Points off 1 of his Knight and charged it afterwards. I took off another 4 hull points in the combat, killing it, while taking 4 HP in return. This was great, one of his Knights is down while mine is still alive. Now I had a chance to trade my wounded Knight for his remaining Knight! 3rd turn and onwards: My Knight did in fact die while taking his along with him. Unlucky for him, but partly also because he positioned his Knight wrong, making him have to go through terrain to charge me, which he didn't. I charged him in my turn basicly. The whole Knights battle took place in the southeast. Fateweaver and the Oblits traded some shots, little happening. Meanwhile my Rhinos + Plagues spread around the board, killing his Nurglings, Horrors and things which came out of his Portal Glyph. End of the game his screamerstar was still tied up and I could claim every objective and quarter, getting enough mission points to get full score for this game. Thoughts: My plan worked out, mostly due to capatilizing on some major mistakes of my oppenent. His list had the clear advantage in my eyes, as large parts of my army couldn't deal with his whole army pretty much. A pleasant oppenent to play against, who stayed very friendly till the end! Result: 20-0 victory, putting me on the 1st table for next game. GAME 2 VERSUS WOLFSTAR Oppenents list: (Wolves Unleashed Detachment) 2x Wolflord on Thunderwolf 2x Wolfguard Battle Leader on Thunderwolf 3x Ironpriest on Thunderwolf including 7 or so cyberwolves 2x Grey Hunters (melta, combimelta) in Drop Pods (Dark Angels Allies) Chaplain on Bike Techpriest on Bike with powerfield generator Command Squad on Bikes including Hit&Run banner I believe 5 Tacticals (melta, combimelta) in Drop Pod Gigantic Thunderwolf star. Zealot, 2+/3++ on the Wolf Character, FnP from Apothecary, Scout from the DA Command Squad, 23 S10 attacks or so. Rest of his army was simply 3 Drop Pods with double melta in it. Deployment: Dawn of War. Missions: Modified Maëlstrom (Primary, 18 points total), Maëlstrom Objectives as real objectives end of game (Secondary, 2 points per objective so 12 points total max), Getting Maelstrom Objectives 1 to 6 during the game (claiming the 6 objectives as normal basicly), Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker (Tertiary, 1 point each) Picture, taken during his turn 3 I believe after he concluded his movement pretty much: http://image.bolterandchainsword.com/uploads/gallery/album_10631/gallery_42082_10631_1026140.jpg He deployed first and went first. He deployed his Wolfstar pretty much in the middle to the left in between those 2 forest terrain pieces. Thoughts at this point: I can't deal with his wolfstar, unless my Knight gets 3 stomps and rolls 6's for all of them lol. My shooting will do almost nothing and my Spawn wont achieve anything either (they just die to that or he could have Hit&Runned). Plague Marines, my Lord and Oblits are even more of a joke in this case. So what are my choices? Well, I'll split up my army, reserve some elements and will try to stay away from him all game while trying to complete some Maelstrom objective here and there and hopefully having some units left to score Secondary points last turn. Not fun to play and I didn't have much hope... So, I opted to deploy my Knight in the middle, facing his Wolfstar. 1 unit of Spawn + 1 plasma Rhino in the corner to the left, 1 unit of Spawn + 1 plasma Rhino + Lord and Oblits in the west corner (that corner being further away from his wolfstar than the left corner was). 2 melta Rhinos reserve. He scouts up his Wolfstar towards my Knight! 1st turn: He moves up his Wolfstar up to a few inches from my Knight, I can easily charge it in my turn if I choose to. His 2 Grey Hunter units come down in the South West corner and destroy the rhino there. Now, I could charge his unit with my Knight, but to what end? Denying Furious Charge and gaining a HoW attack + 1 regular attack? No thanks, I'll still die and will in effect give him an extra turn. I instead choose to shoot at a Grey Hunter unit, killing it and also the Drop pod with the rapid fire Battle Cannon. My Plasma Plague Marines + Spawn kill the other Grey Hunter unit. Droppod still alive and preventing me from getting Maelstrom point there. In my east corner my Oblits take some plasma cannon shots, doing a couple of wounds on the wolfstar, Lord + Spawn + Rhino move up, fleeing towards the North East. 2nd turn: DA Tactical Pod drops on an objective for a Maelstrom point (the North pod on the picture). His Wolfstar Charges and kill the Imperial Knight. I hardly do anything in return, no lucky stomps! ^^ My 2 Melta Rhinos arrive from reserve. 1 in the West corner (killing the 2nd Grey Hunter Pod) while the other one moves up to the North East joining the Lord and Plasma Rhino around there. Oblits don't do anything besides maybe killing a Cyberwolf or something. Spawn to the left move up to the North, towards the DA Tactical squad. 3rd turn: His Grey Hunters being dead and soon his Tacticals too, he realises he needs to split up his wolfstar. 1 Wolf Lord, 1 WBL and 1 Ironpriest go towards the east. Wolf Lord and Battleleader are wounded already. (I believe this was a small mistake on his part, he should have sent more towards the east, or at least Characters which were still at full wounds) Rest of his wolfstar go towards the east. See picture at this point. He and I both pick up Maelstrom points here and there, but he more than me, drop pods and having the center of the board tends to do this. I have no choice but to continue my plan. I could have opted in this turn to disembark both Rhinos to the east in order to attempt and severly damage his 3 Wolf Characters there, who were going towards the Oblits, but I figured the damage output wouldn't be high enough and he'd be able to kill Plague Marines + Rhinos if I failed. Not worth the risk in any case, so I left the Oblits there to die while moving the 2 Rhinos + Lord + Spawn further up to the North, slightly to the West. (My Lord would do nothing but staying away all game, getting Linebreaker and denying Slay the Warlord, no point in fightining with him against superior melee units) To the west my Melta Rhino went Flat Out to the North West (not North, as that would leave me within an easy charge range on his turn). Plasma Plague Marines walked towards the utter left corner, attempting to let him waste time if he wants them dead. Spawn charge and kill most Tacticals I think. They stick around, being stubborn and all (heh). 4th turn: DA Command Squad move towards the North, rest of the Wolf Star towards the West and South West, claiming Maelstrom point here and there, but not being able to get charges off (as I moved my Plagues far enough away. To the East my Obliterators get charged and die a horrible death, as expected. Spawn kill the Tacticals. I move my Melta Rhino towards the DA Pod. My North East sector (Lord + spawn + 2 rhinos with plagues) move move slightly to the west/left, leaving 1 rhino within charge range of his 3 (mostly wounded) Wolf Characters. 5th turn: It was at this point he suddenly realised to his horror that I could very well still win the game by virtue of me having 3 OS rhinos alive, having last turn and some OS Plague Marine squads near objectives as well. He spreads out forces, DA Bikes to North, and some Wolf forces to the Left and slightly towards the DA pod, but realising he wont be able to kill both the Rhino + Melta Plagues near the Pod anymore, while also similtaneously preventing the Plasma Plagues (South West corner, going towards the objective there) . Basicly he will try and claim all 3 South objectives and the middle North objective. He opts to charge the Rhino which I left within charge range with his 3 mostly Wounded Characters. He kills it and spreads around the objective there (the North East one), trying to prevent me from coming within range. No problem, I just kill the 3 Characters then eh? Melta + Plasma Plagues disembark, killing 2 of them, Spawn Charge and kill the remaining one. Melta plagues attempt to kill the DA Pod, failing (aww). 1 Rhino goes towards the South East objective to claim it. If the game had ended here I would have helt 2 North Objectives and the 1 to the South East (North West contested due to the OS Tactical Pod). Alas, the game continues! 6th turn: DA Bikes kill the Spawn (the ones who killed the DA tacticals and are standing on the North Middle objective) and claim the objective. Wolf Lord kills some of the Plasma Plague Marines in the South West corner (by having charged them), so I can't walk towards the Objective there. Other Wolf Characters fail to make a (10") charge to my Rhino holding the Objective in the South East. Other Wolf Character holds the Objective in the South East. 3 Objectives are his at this point. No problem, I got this. Melta Plague near the DA Pod disembark before the Rhino moves, killing the Pod in this phase (yay) and standing near the objective which was under it. The empty Rhino goes Flat Out towars the South West objective, him being unable to block me off there. Now, the Rhino on the South East objective races towards the South Middle objective! The other Rhino who was at the North East Objective now goes towards the South East one to take his place lol. Spawn who are still around there stay to claim that one. Plagues attempt to Charge the DA Bikes to try and get within range of North Middle objectives, but didn't make it. Well, 5 out of 6 objectives is pretty good anyways hah. Game ends here. Convienently I claimed another 3 Mealstrom points too last turn, bringing the Maelstrom score around 12-9 or something in his advantage. However, holding 5 out of 6 secondary objectives (giving me 10 points versus his 2 and drawing on Tertiary brings the score in my favour, I win. Thoughts: I sticked to my plan, even though it was pretty painfull (I felt really powerless all game). However, the end of the game nearing, I got a morale boost by virtue of indeed still being able to win to my surprise, he simply couldn't be everywhere and probably made some little mistakes in the process here. That's what the game is mostly about isn't it, trying to put your oppenent into a position where he can make mistakes while making none or as little as possible yourself? I'm pretty sure he underestimated me at the start of the game, as he hasn't played against me before and probably made a judgement looking solely at the list. Result: 15-5, putting me on the 2nd table for the 3rd game (There were more nasty lists, 2 of them having scored higher than me at this point, fighting it out on table 1 for the 3rd game). GAME 3 VERSUS WHITE SCARS Opponents list: Khan on Moondrakkan Chapter Master; Shield Eternal, Powerfist, Arti armour, Bike Dark Angels Librarian; bike, powerfield generator Dark Angels Techmarine; bike, powerfield generator Dark Angels Bike Command Squad; Apo, 1 rad grenade launcher Command Squad; Bikes, Apo, 4x Grav Gun 2x 5 Bikes; 2x grav gun 2x 5 Bikes; 2x meltagun 1x 2 Multimelta Attack Bikes 5 DA Scouts. Thunderfire Cannon Another nasty list, although a very cool and nice looking one! Deployment: Vanguard Strike Missions: Relic including chosing a small buff for the unit carrying it each turn which had no impact on the game at all actually (Primary, 5 vp's in total to be earned), Kill Points (secondary, 1 vp per kill point), choosing a relic buff each turn, destorying a unit carrying the relic, linebreaker (tertiary, 1 vp each) Picture, taken during my 2nd movement phase: http://image.bolterandchainsword.com/uploads/gallery/album_10631/gallery_42082_10631_1211867.jpg I deployed and went first. I deployed my forces against the edge of my deployment line, with the Imperial Knight on the right of my Chaos forces (against with 12" distance ofc). He did the same, so we were pretty close to eachother! He didn't scout up much as I had first turn (unless he seized, which he didn't). This actually make me almost want to give him the first turn, but I didn't. I think it didn't matter much who went first at this point as both our alphastrikes weren't that great and the player who went 2nd could potentially charge things. Thoughts at this point: He has way more firepower and mobility than me, but his shooting is really innefective overall against my Spawn and I got 10 of them! He basicly had a deathstar with all his characters except for the Techmarine (who joined the Grav command squad) in the DA Command Squad. Only my Knight could deal with this unit, similar to Wolfstar except that his Deathstar can't kill the Knight that well. I have to make sure my Knight gets into combat with them as soon as possible and hope for a 6 on the stomps! If not, he'll potentially Hit&Run and this game will become nearly impossible as he'll probably shoot down the Knight then. Turn 1: I move up my 5 Spawn on the right (roughly where the Oval Base of the Knight is in the picture). Easily within charge range of his Deathstar. I move up my Rhinos, other Spawn unit (holding the relic) and Oblits as well. My Knight moves up a little bit (pretty close to where he is on the picture, the model, not the base) I make sure it's out of the range of a Melta Bike unit on the right (picture doesn't show them, they're to the right of it, 2nd turn as well I think) His scouts are holding the Relic, so I decide to shoot at them with Plasma Cannons from the Oblits, killing 4 out of 5! He went to ground and lost the model near the relic so he can't pick that up for 2 turns, no way he's going to make it across the table with it now. Knight shoots at a Bike unit, which Jinks combined with Night Fight causing no casualties. In his turn he figures only his Deathstar is effective against the Spawn, so he chooses to charge them, which I accounted for. He murdered them (rad grenade making them Toughness 5 helped this as well). Never seen 5 Nurgle Spawn murdered so fast hah! He killed 2 Rhinos, took a hull point on the Knight and did a wound on my Lord (which was joined to the Oblits). His Thunderfire Cannon missed horribly. Actually, it missed horribly all game long so I wont mention it again, that thing fired so badly it was comical to behold. Turn 2: You can see the result of my movement on the picture I think. The Knight is standing where his base is (was at risk of falling of it so that's why he isn't on it). He prepares to charge the Deathstar. I shoot a bit and kill 3 or 4 Bikes overall, making 2 units with Grav Jink and thus limiting his damage output for next turn. My Spawn with the Relic moved up again, creeping towards a slow victory. Now, the combat with the Knight, the deciding factor of the game potentially! I think he took off another 2 hull points or so. I roll only 1 stomp. And it's a 6. I tell you, the moment that happens is... special. You literally get to declare some models dead, by holding the blast template over them. It's strangely rewarding lol! Chapter Master + Libby + 2 bikes dead. Now the Deathstar will be managable! Except... he fails his Hit&Run by rolling a 6! You're stuck with me there mate. His right flank was essentially useless now for a turn, because he couldn't shoot at the Knight. With his Deathstar being tied up, that left 3 or so Bikes squads + the Attack Bikes to do some damage. He killed some Plague Marines and shot + charged the spawn which were holding the relic in order to prevent them from movign up the relic next turn. Except the Spawn won combat and made them both flee (3 bikes actually off the table, 3d6 sometimes is a lot of distance)because I didn't catch them due to having a lovely low initiative of 3! Bikes simply don't do much damage to Spawn. I think nothing happened in the Knight combat. Turn 3: Spawn move up, Plague Marines and Oblits trade fire and blows with Bikes, which they're pretty okay at! Combat: I lose another hull point I think (I had 2 left after this round in any case) and fail to kill anything against with my D sword attacks. Not an issue at all, I'll just roll a 6 on a stomp attack again. Which I did lol! Well, there goes his apothecary and Khan. His highest initiative model was now initiative 4 and you can guess what he rolled for Hit&Run. A 5. Poor guy, although this didn't matter as much as the 1st round, the damage was already done, it would only be an issue if my Knight got out of combat on his turn. His right flank (Grav Command Squad + Melta Bike Squad) could now engage my Oblits and Plague Marines, which I couldn't really prevent from doing major damage. He kill some Plagues and an Oblit I think. In his turn the combat with the Knight nothing happened again, 2 bikes left in any case at this point against the Knight. Turn 4: Spawn move up, plagues move up towards his relic. My Chaos Lord joins a combat of Plague Marines against the Bikes (near the ruïn in the North West) and kills them (There were 3 remaining, Hatred as Warlord trait working out!). Oblits make something Jink I think, but not the command squad. In the Knight Combat his 2 bikes manage to take of the 2 remaining hull points with their corvus hammers, but I take them with me in return! Final combat result: 1 Knight traded against an 800 point deathstar! ^^ I'll come back on this shortly. He kills the 2 remaining Oblits in my turn I think. Turn 5 and further: He can't prevent my Spawn and rhinos from claiming my own relic in his deployement zone, granting me 3 VP's for primary. He manages to contest his own by virtue of some of his Bikes refusing to die against a lot of fire and him being Objective Secured as well. I win Secondary and Tertiary as well, although all not by a great margin. Result: 18-2. Thoughts after this game: Now one could say I got lucky with my Knight against the Deathstar. And this is true to some extent. However, this is not the right way to look at it I believe. My oppenent asked me what he could have done better and I gave him this answer: He took a decision (killing the Spawn with his Deathstar) which put him into a position where he had a small chance of losing the game. You never do that if you don't have to! My Knight was stuck on the right flank (Come the Apocalypse), he should have left the Knight against the Bike squads there, losing probably quite some but beating up my CSM army with his deathstar. I'll come back on this shorty in my final thoughts. Final Result: 2nd place. 1st place was out of reach due to somebody going 3x 20-0. (AdLance + 2 Wraithknights + summoning Farseer, good gracious) A good friend of mine came 3rd place with SW + allied Knight. Final thoughts: Really happy with the result! Was pretty surprised I managed to reach 2nd place with this list. 1st and 2nd game honestly weren't that fun to play in itself, except for trying to win them and achieving that. 3rd game was a lot more fun because we actually killed eachother. All 3 oppenents were nice players, yay for that. Couple of tips for people, who are open to it, if you want to improve fun/placings at tournaments: -Knowledge is really important. Try to know as many codices as possible, or at least the popular armies and units. It helps analysing the situation before a game quickly. Knowing your own army isn't nearly enough to be honest, that's the absolute minimum. -Formulate a plan to win the game at the start of the battle. This is something else than planning how to kill the oppenent. Adapt your plan during the game if necesary, but never forget about winning the game if you want to win! This is for me personally the biggest difference regarding competitive play or casual play: In casual play I tend to not care about winning and thus I play to kill the oppenent. -Take small chances which can win you the game, but not lose them. Don't take good chances of achieving something minor, while it has a small chance of losing you the game. Most people have a grap of probability, but few know how to apply it well. Realise averages are just averages, you have so many situations during a tournaments, you are bound to get unlucky and lucky at some points. It's a lot easier to win if you can capitilize on lucky situations and limit the damage when you get unlucky. -Be nice to your oppenents in general! It really helps in making them being nice to you as well. I tend to be pretty lenient regarding people having forgotten obvious things for example. Basicly, making the atmosphere really tense can take away from your energy and concentration for the game, which is not good. Not that you need a reason to be nice anyways, being nice is almost always good! Except against real douchebags, there are different strats for those. Well I've written enough I feel, if people have any questions or remarks, feel free to post them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Nice work! Really good strategy for the game, and some good luck/capitalising on mistakes to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slipknotzim Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 awsome wtrite up, its nice to show that these super lists can be beaten ! grt job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Great batrep :) It proves that tabletop tacticians will beat list crafters everyday of the week ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 Thanks! 2nd game written, will write the 3rd and last game somewhere in the next hours hopefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old git Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Good reports, concise and to the point. Two excellent wins there, well done. Despite some poor showings in tournies I have always advocated play the mission rather than kill the enemy (unless it's kill points, obviously). Killing the enemy on the way is an obvious requirment but not at the expense of the overall plan, as you ably demonstrated in the Wolf game, especially playing against one of the current favoured death stars with the widely acknowledged sub par chaos marine 'dex. Again, well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 Thank you! 3rd game written, which means I'm done. Feel free to ask things (or thank me )! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodacious2182 Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Fantastic writeup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetterOffShred Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Well played Zhukov, I like reading of ass-beatings from beyond. I have to tip my hat to you for allying with a knight, as I like to keep all my chaos evil, and my loyalists of the most unshakeable faith.. A job well done! -Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiringchaoschampion Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Congratulations dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted April 22, 2015 Author Share Posted April 22, 2015 I have to tip my hat to you for allying with a knight, as I like to keep all my chaos evil, and my loyalists of the most unshakeable faith.. A job well done! I have the same thing actually, hence my Knight is heavily converted so it really looks evil. For this reason I also can't get myself to use it along Imperial Forces anymore! Basicly, it's a Chaos Knight Paladin, I'm just lending the Imperial Knight Paladin rules to play with it ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 I wondered if pm with their extra fire power per squad would do better then 5 man csm, I am runing. Good to know they work. On the other hand It is nice to see that people do not test against csm anymore and forget how to play against them.Very refreshing to see people play against csm as if they were facing SW or other meq army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vomikron Noxis Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Great write up, hope to hear more from you Z! I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on countering the new eldar... That's gonna be a fun match up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Good Batrep Zhukov. It's really too bad more people don't write these up, but it is always my suspicion that many people don't actually play that often. (Just a hunch based on my experiences with the formations for Chaos). How vital do you think Spawn are? I've never got into them. Frankly I think the lynchpin in your list is the Knight. Unlike Jeske, I don't think people don't know 'how to play against them'. They've been around longest, and although the army has not been... top tier, I believe the real difficulty is the Knight. Your list is very typical until you get to the Knight, and perhaps the lack of Baledrake.... I mean aside from the Knight, this is a list I see even in casual play... it is 'the Chaos' build pretty much. The fact you did so well is a compliment to your playing ability. It's nice to hear you give your opponent's an easier time and leniency with rules, as I believe in doing the same thing to make for a funner experience. Did you see many other Knight related lists? How about Necrons? Or Eldar? Thank you! 3rd game written, which means I'm done. Feel free to ask things (or thank me )! Thank you! I think in this era of allies... which I confess I don't like. Anything is winnable... if you ally. I admit being negative to the ally mechanism because I think it's a mechanism for GW to sell more of a specific model, and it's also permission for them to write, and sit on bad codexes (because, hey your codex may suck, but you can always ally and be a winner!) This sounds worse than I mean it to, because in fact I thoroughly enjoy my non-allied lists and I do not hold allies against anyone. It's there to be used. So this may be a silly question but how different do you think the results would have been if you would have included the Khorne Choo Choo of doom instead of the Knight? Again, great job, and I think maelstrom/modified Maelstrom still really help to keep some units valid that would otherwise be horrid... IE: no one like shooting at empty rhinos! But if their ObSec, you can't ignore them! Thanks for the write up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted April 22, 2015 Author Share Posted April 22, 2015 I wondered if pm with their extra fire power per squad would do better then 5 man csm, I am runing. Good to know they work. I don't really care for the extra firepower to be honest (giving a CSM Champ a combi achieves pretty much the same, especially when considering the cost difference). No, the difference is and has always been for me the fact that PM's are Fearless! Rhino gets killed? Pinning Test. Losing 2 models? Morale Test. Losing Close Combat by 1? Morale Test. You are bound to fail quite some of these throughout a whole tournament when you're playing with CSM instead and I hate that, it makes the list less reliable. Great write up, hope to hear more from you Z! I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on countering the new eldar... That's gonna be a fun match up... Very fun indeed, he rolls dice and you remove models hah! Doesn't change much, if the players are close skillwise then he has the clear advantage. Nothing really changes, Wave Serpents get replaced to some extent by Jetbikes! Rest is a lot of noise I believe, although D everywhere is a bit dumb. How vital do you think Spawn are? I've never got into them. Frankly I think the lynchpin in your list is the Knight. Unlike Jeske, I don't think people don't know 'how to play against them'. They've been around longest, and although the army has not been... top tier, I believe the real difficulty is the Knight. Your list is very typical until you get to the Knight, and perhaps the lack of Baledrake.... I mean aside from the Knight, this is a list I see even in casual play... it is 'the Chaos' build pretty much. Did you see many other Knight related lists? How about Necrons? Or Eldar? Spawn solve some issues due to having a very specific tanky profile, excelling against particular targets. (They have no save, so anything paying to ignore saves is usually inefficient against them to give an oversimple example) S5 makes them able to damage most things in the game too, making them somewhat of a threat (although you really don't take them for their damage, but for their tarpitting capabilities). How vital? I don't know, nothing in the Chaos codex is vital, people oversimplify things, shouting Maulerfiends, Heldrakes or summoning Princes are vital, well I didn't use any of those so yeah, depends on the total list basicly! For this list they were vital. Yes, the Imperial Knight made this list function, there is nothing quite like it to replace it. The core of the list are the Plague Marines in Rhinos though, not the Knight! My list looks typical because it's a pretty standard list design originating from 5th edition, probably still some people play with it in casual games, I don't see it in tournaments anymore though and with reason. Yes, there were a lot of knights. Little to no Crons (some major Necrons players from our country weren't there or weren't playing Necrons). Yes, quite some Eldar, in round 3 there were 2 Eldar players battling it out on table 1. I admit being negative to the ally mechanism because I think it's a mechanism for GW to sell more of a specific model, and it's also permission for them to write, and sit on bad codexes (because, hey your codex may suck, but you can always ally and be a winner!) This sounds worse than I mean it to, because in fact I thoroughly enjoy my non-allied lists and I do not hold allies against anyone. It's there to be used. So this may be a silly question but how different do you think the results would have been if you would have included the Khorne Choo Choo of doom instead of the Knight? Again, great job, and I think maelstrom/modified Maelstrom still really help to keep some units valid that would otherwise be horrid... IE: no one like shooting at empty rhinos! But if their ObSec, you can't ignore them! Thanks for the write up. How is the part I put in bold wrong exactly? I see that as a big plus! People have easier times making their list competitive. They don't have to switch entire armies but can just add a few units. In the past many codices couldn't compete at all! GW already let people sit on bad codexes, allies didn't make this worse. Did they do it to sell more units? That's probably their intent yes. Did it make the game more competitive? I say yes! Does it make the game less interesting for many players due to the weird lists being seen? Yes, arguably! The Khorne Lord of Skulls? Wouldn't have been legal for this tournament, but it also would have sucked big time compared to the Knight by virtue of the Lord of Skulls simply not being worth his points at all and the Knight granted me what I needed for way less points. Empty Rhinos help more with claiming objectives in the last turn than maelstrom I feel, while drop pods are really good for maelstrom. I don't really know if maelstrom is all that important for list variety, there are other ways of intelligent mission design. I actually won the game against the SW player due to the objectives, not maelstrom, I actually lost the maelstrom part! I'm overall not a fan of maelstrom, I don't think it is very competitive, no matter how modified (at some point you modify it so much, it's not really maelstrom anymore lol). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 I don't really care for the extra firepower to be honest (giving a CSM Champ a combi achieves pretty much the same, especially when considering the cost difference). No, the difference is and has always been for me the fact that PM's are Fearless! Rhino gets killed? Pinning Test. Losing 2 models? Morale Test. Losing Close Combat by 1? Morale Test. You are bound to fail quite some of these throughout a whole tournament when you're playing with CSM instead and I hate that, it makes the list less reliable. True. My problem always was the 1500pts game size and not being able to fit in pms in to a list. I wonder how 1850 games would be for me. Extra rhino unit wouldn't probably worth losing fearless. oddly enough your list seems to be a bit like the chaos lists from 5th. suicide DPs that always die, with pms taking objectives and support units. The Khorne Lord of Skulls? Wouldn't have been legal for this tournament, but it also would have sucked big time compared to the Knight by virtue of the Lord of Skulls simply not being worth his points at all and the Knight granted me what I needed for way less points. It is horrible to compare them. One WK is around ~300pts [with 2 range D's] and the LoS is what 888 for some battle cannon class stuff [and melee D]. dead before reachs line even if the eldar player doesn't roll any 6's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 It is horrible to compare them. One WK is around ~300pts [with 2 range D's] and the LoS is what 888 for some battle cannon class stuff [and melee D]. dead before reachs line even if the eldar player doesn't roll any 6's. I think you are thinking about the wrong kind of knight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 I admit being negative to the ally mechanism because I think it's a mechanism for GW to sell more of a specific model, and it's also permission for them to write, and sit on bad codexes (because, hey your codex may suck, but you can always ally and be a winner!) This sounds worse than I mean it to, because in fact I thoroughly enjoy my non-allied lists and I do not hold allies against anyone. It's there to be used. So this may be a silly question but how different do you think the results would have been if you would have included the Khorne Choo Choo of doom instead of the Knight? Again, great job, and I think maelstrom/modified Maelstrom still really help to keep some units valid that would otherwise be horrid... IE: no one like shooting at empty rhinos! But if their ObSec, you can't ignore them! Thanks for the write up. How is the part I put in bold wrong exactly? Well as said, I think it inadvertently gives GW to write bad codexes. In an ideal universe, wouldn't it be cool if all codexes were nearly on equal footing? Wouldn't it be cool if you went to a tournament and did not see 10 Knights? But instead you had a Necron version, something from Chaos, etc... ? I would absolutely love that. When I read the LVO lists for example I laughed to myself because they said, 'oh look this guy did great with Ultras' (allied with Knights). Oh look, here's a cool Iron Hands list (allied with a Knight), etc, etc. This is kind of boring to me. These aren't chapter lists, they're Knights with filler. Yet another reason I'll give is I believe GW doesn't truly understand the full implications of possible combinations of their Ally rules. On the surface they intend to sell more models, however they don't think of certain results: A) Flyrant lists are simply smash face lists, with no thought put into them nor skill. It's a silly premise and really should be unbound, but instead allying allows this to exist. I'm going to assume it's an accident and will be illegal in the next implementation of the codex (or they will break Flyrants period, because that's how GW rolls) B ) Broken combo's that were never meant to be. Sure it's fun to add ally rules that allow you to finally take that daemon unit with your World Eaters.. that makes snese. But do you think when Drop Pods became fast, they foresaw that people would be stuffing Centurions in them (when Ultramarines cannot? lol ) Better yet, do you think those pods were thought of as hosting scores of cheap Guardsmen Vets with melta's? I really don't think they ever thought of the accidental 'borked' implications. We know GW messes with their own background but we know that humans can't even make it to the ground alive without getting smashed to bits upon a drop pod landing! (As an aside, I think the fix for broken allies is 'Signature' units. A card game I used to play allowed you to use anyone elses cards. A VERY similar mechanism to allying in 40K. It became too broken. They came up with "Signature" cards which were often 1) limited in number, and 2) only usable by the persona (codex) they were created for.) The main reason I say it though is my original point: allies gives GW a way to sell an omnipotent model to everyone (which dilutes creativity in list building) and more importantly excuses their bad codex writing. Also a side effect of Allying rules is it's given them permission to break apart codexes to create multiple codexes out of what should ideally be one. (Grey Knights immediately comes to mind.) There are positives, I don't mean to say there isn't any good things about allying. When I dabble with space hippies, I enjoy that my Chaos marines have such easy access to the space hippie (daemons) codex. The Khorne Lord of Skulls? Wouldn't have been legal for this tournament, but it also would have sucked big time compared to the Knight by virtue of the Lord of Skulls simply not being worth his points at all and the Knight granted me what I needed for way less points. Empty Rhinos help more with claiming objectives in the last turn than maelstrom I feel, while drop pods are really good for maelstrom. I don't really know if maelstrom is all that important for list variety, there are other ways of intelligent mission design. I actually won the game against the SW player due to the objectives, not maelstrom, I actually lost the maelstrom part! I'm overall not a fan of maelstrom, I don't think it is very competitive, no matter how modified (at some point you modify it so much, it's not really maelstrom anymore lol). Out of curiosity why would it not have been legal? It's too bad he's so bad. I've never used him, so I don't know, but this is an example of introducing something that is an equivalent for Chaos, maybe not exact, but something cool for chaos instead of allying. Ah, I still love Maelstrom. It's just the alternative has me flashing back to tournaments with IG lining up on their back edge rolling dice for two hours... so incredibly boring... or Tau never moving unless they have to... all those armies that just sat there and did nothing but play 'kill'. I also think Maelstrom adds value to some otherwise crappy units. I do agree though, drop pods are great for it. I would love it if new chaos would get something like that. It appears they did Maelstrom in your tournament pretty good... making it important enough to count, but not dictate the winner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted April 22, 2015 Author Share Posted April 22, 2015 oddly enough your list seems to be a bit like the chaos lists from 5th. suicide DPs that always die, with pms taking objectives and support units. It indeed works pretty much exactly the same, it's what I play when I don't know what else to play haha (as I'm very used to playing that way, 5th being the edition I played the most competitive games). The main reason I say it though is my original point: allies gives GW a way to sell an omnipotent model to everyone (which dilutes creativity in list building) and more importantly excuses their bad codex writing. I understand your point (I think I already did), I personally just don't mind! I don't care what GW does to a certain extent. When I play competitively, then I play competitively. I don't care how armylists look like basicly. To a certain extent I see only numbers when I'm playing tournaments, I'm literally trying to win and that's it. (Although I do enjoy certain cool situations when they do happen and I'm also a fan of the models in itself). When I'm bored or frustrated at some point due to the game sometimes feeling a bit....lame, then I take a break! It's why I sometimes dissapear for quite some months. I also seperate some things: Playing tournaments is playing competitively for me. I enjoy fluff, modelling and painting at home and I play casually at my club when I feel like playing with more casual/fluffy/themed lists. Out of curiosity why would it not have been legal? It's too bad he's so bad. I've never used him, so I don't know, but this is an example of introducing something that is an equivalent for Chaos, maybe not exact, but something cool for chaos instead of allying. Ah, I still love Maelstrom. It's just the alternative has me flashing back to tournaments with IG lining up on their back edge rolling dice for two hours... so incredibly boring... or Tau never moving unless they have to... all those armies that just sat there and did nothing but play 'kill'. I also think Maelstrom adds value to some otherwise crappy units. I do agree though, drop pods are great for it. I would love it if new chaos would get something like that. It appears they did Maelstrom in your tournament pretty good... making it important enough to count, but not dictate the winner? Lords of War couldn't exceed 400 points I believe. I never have had an issue with IG or Tau doing that, multiple objectives and terrain already solves that enough in my opinion, I don't think I ever lost a game to IG or Tau. Yes, it was a reall good modification of it! (they picked 18 of them which are achievable for most armies, while still being able to discard any you can't right away and being able to discard any cards at the end of each of your turns) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiringchaoschampion Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 See il be honest atleast at the core of my force i can run something similar 2x 5 PMs in rhinos nurgle oblits. Maybe i should bring out my Nurgle forces again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 It indeed works pretty much exactly the same, it's what I play when I don't know what else to play haha (as I'm very used to playing that way, 5th being the edition I played the most competitive games). You have to try to play some GK then. For me they are very fun to play. Sure they aren't awesome, but at least the mobility is uncomperable to what chaos has and the psy phase is actualy fun. But then again I am playing a adlance+eldar ally army right now, and I probably have been tainted with the good stuff too much. no more chaos for me in the near future. Ah, I still love Maelstrom. It's just the alternative has me flashing back to tournaments with IG lining up on their back edge rolling dice for two hours... so incredibly boring... or Tau never moving unless they have to... all those armies that just sat there and did nothing but play 'kill'. I also think Maelstrom adds value to some otherwise crappy units. I dont think that necron/eldar swarming and shoting your army turn 1 and every other army swarming objectives with MSU units is very much either. The only way[imo] to have any fun in 7th is to play tournament style objectives+ms missions, with discard/draw mechanics house ruled. Also who ever thought that faction missions are ok, the way they made must have been drinking a lot of window cleaner in his youth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiringchaoschampion Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 @thejeske by faction missons do you mean the altar of war ones? If so ive found them quite fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted April 23, 2015 Author Share Posted April 23, 2015 You have to try to play some GK then. For me they are very fun to play. Sure they aren't awesome, but at least the mobility is uncomperable to what chaos has and the psy phase is actualy fun. I'm actually busy building a GK army as we speak! I'm busy moving to a different country at the moment though, so it will take a while before I'm able to play tournaments with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 @thejeske by faction missons do you mean the altar of war ones? If so ive found them quite fun I meant the mealstorm ones. Like the GK ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiringchaoschampion Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 @thejeske by faction missons do you mean the altar of war ones? If so ive found them quite fun I meant the mealstorm ones. Like the GK ones. Ah i see what you mean imho they should of either allowed you to tailor the deck to your own strategy or released race specific ones for all the races Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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