Kataphron Breachers/Destroyers

[Frater Cornelius]

So, the tracked dudes leaked. Judgement is still out on the Breachers, since we do not know what the Heavy Arc weapon does. However, the Destroyers have an option to get Grav Cannons on top of Phosphor Blasters. Neat.

 

As awesome as this sounds, I am a bit worried. T5 with a 4+ save is not hard to drop. Hell, against some armies 10 Vanguard with 3 Calivers will last longer. In addition these guys do not seem to have movement bonuses, which makes them very slow indeed.

 

Thoughts?

[Zembar]

I'm curious about both the heavy arc rifle and the torsion cannon, unless that's just german for something we already know-

 

The breachers are 3+, which is better. We also don't know if their armor grants some sort of invul as well, which could be nice.

[Charlo]

Maybe they'll be able to buy reflector fields like the Kastellan have in-built?

 

They seem nicely balanced, hopefully the full rules will tip that a little unbalanced ;)

 

I'm guessing a heavy arc rifle will just have bigger range and either/ or more shots /strength.

Grav and Phospher is a great combo, especially in that leaked formation... Ignore the cover and reduce it for allies :D

[Zembar]

No reflector fields, since there doesn't appear to be any wargear list options on them.

[Castellan Cato]

No reflector fields, since there doesn't appear to be any wargear list options on them.

It could be rolled into the armor. We won't know that until the war gear page leaks

[Zembar]

 

No reflector fields, since there doesn't appear to be any wargear list options on them.

It could be rolled into the armor. We won't know that until the war gear page leaks

 

 

That's exactly what I suggested a few posts up, Reflector fields can't be taken though.

[Vel'Cona]

Even if they have a token 6+ Invul (or even 5+), they will still have big problems with Autocannon/Scatter Laser spam.  While not as blatant as the issues with Sicarians, I have a feeling this is a unit you'll really need to screen with friendlies, though this is a big problem since that'll mess up their shooting, too.  Mobility isn't as big of an issue as long as they have ObjSec and the range on their guns isn't nerfed.

 

That said, I think the Breachers are the real wild card here.  With T5, 3+, and 2 wounds, they'll be a nasty assault unit IF you can get them there.  I wonder if there will be any deployment/movement shenanigans granted by their special rules/support characters?  (ie. Magos Dominus handing out a buff, or maybe Canticles providing some kind of mobility)

[Frater Cornelius]

In my eyes the only good assault units are those are Cav and Beasts. I think Breachers will still be used as a ranged unit and utilize assault defensively. Having said that, I will think Breachers are the more desirable unit. They are cheaper and have a better save. They also have a Formation that consists of one Magos and two Breachers unit that grants them a perfect deep strike. The Magos can go with a Skitarii Vsnguard Caliver Warlord unit to grant them whatever benefits he may bring, while the Breachers either deploy or deep strike perfectly whereever they are needed.

While the weapons on the Destroyers are good, two things bother me. Even a unit of three will be overkill against almost anything with a T value that isn't invisible and they are fragile despite T5. I do not see a point in a unit that used its point inefficiently and that dies if a Plasma Tac unit looks their way. I find Vanguard to be a better investment for their points.

[Tiger9gamer]

for a moment I thought these guys had 5 wounds, but I now relize it's toughness, so that's a bummer. Anyways, I like the breachers but I think we should reserve judgement when the english rules come out. All I can say is I want two squads for some formation shenanigans!

[Frater Cornelius]

Well I can read the German ones, no problems there. The Wargear is what I am missing :D

[Zembar]

No invul. Cognis flamers always cause 3 wounds instead of 1d3.

[Yodhrin]

Even if they have a token 6+ Invul (or even 5+), they will still have big problems with Autocannon/Scatter Laser spam.  While not as blatant as the issues with Sicarians, I have a feeling this is a unit you'll really need to screen with friendlies, though this is a big problem since that'll mess up their shooting, too.  Mobility isn't as big of an issue as long as they have ObjSec and the range on their guns isn't nerfed.

 

That said, I think the Breachers are the real wild card here.  With T5, 3+, and 2 wounds, they'll be a nasty assault unit IF you can get them there.  I wonder if there will be any deployment/movement shenanigans granted by their special rules/support characters?  (ie. Magos Dominus handing out a buff, or maybe Canticles providing some kind of mobility)

 

Well if, and I will say that again since the source is Faeit, IF the rumoured formations are correct, there's one that's a Magos + 2-3 units of Breachers and the formation benefit is no-scatter Deep Strike for all. That could be...entertaining.

 

I think the Destroyers are going to be made or broken based on the stats of the Heavy Grav-Cannon. If it's just a regular Grav-Cannon with extra Str or additional shots, they probably won't be that good; if the "Heavy" indicates a boost to 36" range, then Grav/Phosphor Destroyers will be pretty damn nasty indeed.

 

Honestly, I'm starting to hate GW just a little bit right now. I really wanted to make a small force to represent my Explorator DH/INQ28 character and his retinue, but the quality of this release has me planning out a Skitarii Legio, a Cybernetica Cohort, a "digsite defence" army(Magos & Kataphrons with allied IG blobs as normal Servitors and lots of Tarantula Sentry Guns/Fortifications), a Freeblade and his Huscarls etc etc. I can hear my wallet sobbing quietly to itself whenever the house gets quiet.

[Frater Cornelius]

Okay, French rules with rough translation got leaked. The armour gives no other bonuses apart from the armour save. The Arc melee weapon is Haywire melee as expected. The Heavy Arc Rifle is same stats as regular one but 2 shots at 36", now that is interesting. Grav Cannons are 6 shots at 30". Plasma Calivers are two shot Plasma Cannon. Rest is sort of useless.

 

To be fair, I am not sure about them. BS3 is a bit lame, unless army rules can do something about them. Destroyers are way to soft for that sort of gun. Yes, you get 18 shots at BS3 (which is 1 less hit that 15 shots at BS4) with Grav at effective range of 36", but you are still only 4+ with other saves. This unit will be target priority no.1 for most enemies and they will die as soon as someone wants them dead.

The Breachers could serve as the main Arc platform, allowing us to run naked Vanguard as forward elements to stack wounds on stuff. But then you remember the BS3 and the Skits BS5-7 for three turns and realize that Skits simply offer the better output. Even Caliver Vanguard with BS pump will do more damage to most units than three Destroyers (which are only 25 points less) and potentially live longer because of ablative wounds and a possible defensive scout move.

If I take any, then it will be Breachers as a distraction unit and back-up Arc.

 

Canticles and Electro Priests better rock my world, because this isn't getting me as moist as it should.

[Charlo]

Okay, French rules with rough translation got leaked. The armour gives no other bonuses apart from the armour save. The Arc melee weapon is Haywire melee as expected. The Heavy Arc Rifle is same stats as regular one but 2 shots at 36", now that is interesting. Grav Cannons are 6 shots at 30". Plasma Calivers are two shot Plasma Cannon. Rest is sort of useless.

 

To be fair, I am not sure about them. BS3 is a bit lame, unless army rules can do something about them. Destroyers are way to soft for that sort of gun. Yes, you get 18 shots at BS3 (which is 1 less hit that 15 shots at BS4) with Grav at effective range of 36", but you are still only 4+ with other saves. This unit will be target priority no.1 for most enemies and they will die as soon as someone wants them dead.

The Breachers could serve as the main Arc platform, allowing us to run naked Vanguard as forward elements to stack wounds on stuff. But then you remember the BS3 and the Skits BS5-7 for three turns and realize that Skits simply offer the better output. Even Caliver Vanguard with BS pump will do more damage to most units than three Destroyers (which are only 25 points less) and potentially live longer because of ablative wounds and a possible defensive scout move.

If I take any, then it will be Breachers as a distraction unit and back-up Arc.

 

Cantricles and Electro Priests better rock my world, because this isn't getting me as moist as it should.

 

Can't agree more.

 

I think there will be some merit in multiple destroyers in the formation, as they are almost cheap enough to be a distraction/ serious threat with plasma plates everywhere.

 

Skitarii and Robots are looking cooler though.

 

I will be very sad if the Priests aren't great though :P

[Kilofix]

I think I'm going to get 2 Graviton Destroyer Units just for the Elimination Formation to allow 2 other Maniples of Phosphor Kastelans to kill TEQ. I'll use the Destroyers as ablative.

 

I'll probably skip Breachers even though the Torsion looks good (while the Claws are meh).

 

I'll keep the Arcs and Plasmas on Vanguard.

[Vel'Cona]

I think both units are a bit lackluster until we know more about Canticles, Magos, and Formation buffs.  Going on the rumors, the two Formations are very much make or break for both units, though I think if you're going off the current rules the Breachers are probably a bit better.  Yes, they only have one gun, but for Haywire spam it's a pretty solid choice given they're much more durable than Arc Rifle Vanguard.  That said, they're never going to see melee so the claws are pretty much pointless (once again, ignoring the Formations until I see them in print).  I wouldn't say the Destroyers are bad, but that 4+ save is almost unforgivable even with the nasty Plasma/Grav firepower.

[Charlo]

Does anyone just really wonder why the destroyers have a 4+ save? They look the same as the breachers... I'm all for balance but, to bring the Xenos into it, when Eldar Jetbikes can have a 3+ save, can't help but feel something is wrong

[mmimzie]

Eh we wont know on either until we get all the rules.

 

If canticles rumours are that the rule is as strong as the number of models with the rule that you have, than it's kind of take the army or ignore them all together.

 

Destroier is lack luster with out rules or formation to back them up, but i mean that's 6 shots a model plus one more for the phosblaster or 2 blast each with ap and the extra.

I love math so 6 gav shot is hitting 50% of the time is 3 hits, 6+ save thats .5 woundsper model; or 3+ save is 2 wounds per model or 6 wounds for a base unit at Ap2 so basically only cover saves. The 3 Phosblasters would be exactly 1 more MEQ wound AP2 so only cover.

 

vangaurd to compare:(gonna do 7 vans and 2 plasmas so the prices are about the same. Now special rules of course) Thats 16 hits on rads, and 4 of the plasmas. T3-5 plasmas put out 3 wounds. MEQ 3.5+3 wounds 

 

So i'd say MEQ they are pretty close in effectiveness. Then grav gets better with tough foes, and vanguards get better with squishier foes. SO with out special rules i'd say both units are the same and both have 4+ saves, one gets 4 more wounds the other gets 2 more toughness.  Also the destroyers get better if you get closer doing one more wounds, and destroys have more range.

 

So really again what makes them good or bad is formations and detachments. If they have +1 BS and cover save ignore (which all would be free iwth a formation) they kind of beat the vanguard in my opinion, and thats ignoring canticles and detachment rules. Also destroyers can take CAD

 

Don't be quick to rule Admech units out.

 

Breachers kind of beat out arc rifle units as well, but again cult mech looks slow. Maybe they'll get a canticle that's like "move, move, move" for imperial guard haha.

[Frater Cornelius]

We should not be too harsh until we get the whole picture, though. I know I did judge them pretty harshly, which is probably still too early. Sure, it may be risky to put dakka that rivals Centurions on a 4+ body, but it does not change the fact that the dakka rivals Centurions. We will just have to wait and see what the Magos, Priests and Canticles do. I mean, an army-wide rule can make all the difference. Look at Imperial Guard or Skitarii.

[Grimdeath]

I think Canticles are going to be what makes this unit shine. /fingers crossed!

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, if you believe the rumours and it is something that scales, then my money would be on stat boost for every model in the unit in it. So +1BS for Destroyers for every model above three or something. But that would basically mean go big or go home, at which point I would go back to Skits and call it a day :D

[ronin_cse]

I'll just repost my thoughts from the rumor thread as I would just be repeating myself otherwise and my thoughts haven't chaged ;) :

 

 

Yeah the flamer on a long range shooty unit is odd. I wonder what the range on the phosphor blaster is? The pistol is 12" and the heavy one is 36", so maybe 24"? Also kind of incongruous with either the plasma or grav weapon as those will likely fire at targets where the ap2 will come into play. On the other hand having access to grav weapons is very nice, especially ones that can potentially ignore cover.

 

I'm undecided on the breachers. Arc weapons are nice but I can put those on cheaper Skitarii. Perfect deep strike is great but that is also going to be I dunno, 400-500 points depending on how much the priest is? The breachers aren't so tough that they can survive in the enemy's lines for a turn and you will potentially lose your warlord too. If the arc rifles are long range enough that you don't need to be in their back field then you don't really need to deep strike either. Then of course they seem like a unit that wants to get into CC but unless their weapon adds extra attacks it looks like they only get 2 attacks on the charge. They have the same problem as the Eldar Wraithblades, the few attacks they do get kill things but an average size unit of basically anything can tie them up for the entire game. Of course we have no idea what their other weapon does.

 

I'll probably buy 2 boxes to make one of each but I think as great as the guns look the other units available will end up being better.

 

Edit:

Forgot they are T5 though, that does help in the suitability department

 

Oh and they are WS3...I just don't know what role the breachers are supposed to fill I guess. Their arc guns should kill most vehicles before they get a chance to get into assault and they will fail miserably against just about any other unit in CC...I guess they will kill dreadnaughts really well? They go after IKs so they'll just get destroyed before being able to hit back.

 

 

Now that we have weapon rules I am even more underwhelmed by the breachers. The only thing that can make them decent is that rumored deep strike formation, but with a 3+ and no invul they just won't make it. IMO their CC weapon is absolutely wasted. Their weapons are good enough to take out most vehicles before they get into CC like I said before so they have almost no point. Looks like 6 attacks from an MSU squad at best means 10 gaunts, IG, orks, scarabs, etc...will easily tie them up for them entire game. The only target I see them being good against is like a baneblade or some other super-heavy that can't attack back. I guess the torsion cannon will be decent against IKs, but at BS3 you'd still be lucky to get one shot through the Ion Shield.

 

The Destroyers however will be great in the ignores cover formation. I think one MSU with grav and one with Plasma will annihilate anything. I'd probably keep the flamers just to discourage charging as a guaranteed 12 hits from the flamer will do a lot to whittle down a charge and I don't think the phosphor blaster has much synergy with the main weapons. Being somewhat short range is a little bit of a liability though.

 

Edit:

Guess I can't do math: 9 guaranteed OW shots

 

 

 

 I do actually like the Destroyers if that formation turns out to be real. Boosts them up to BS4 and they ignore cover. 6 plasma blasts that ignore cover will be very deadly, as will 18 grav shots that ignore cover. Oh and that's in addition to the possibly 12 heavy phosphor shots from the robots.

 

Outside of the formation the plasma culverines will still be pretty good since bs3 is less of a hindrance there and 6 plasma blasts is nothing to write off.

 

Of course if one wants easy access to cult allies you'd have to take them as regular troops which is kind of a disappointment. I want to use that dominus damnit!

[mmimzie]

Well, if you believe the rumours and it is something that scales, then my money would be on stat boost for every model in the unit in it. So +1BS for Destroyers for every model above three or something. But that would basically mean go big or go home, at which point I would go back to Skits and call it a day

HAHA well god big or go home isn't so bad. I think one of them also sad you get extra shots from that rumor. Sooooo <.< more shots for every model i mean that's pretty big. I dont know they look like what i want. I'm definitly going to run them come hell or high water. I like the bigger models, elite units, smaller model count army, fun lore that can be taken lots of different ways, and models that scream to be customized out the ears.... literally.

Haha i'm so committed i already bought some kastelan robots. My fear for the army is they lack anti air outside of shooting up.

[ronin_cse]

One other little thing: the destroyers fall a little short of Centurions for shooting. Cents get to re-roll their wounds from the grav, which IMO is better than 1 extra grav shot, and they can take missiles or bolters which I think are a little better than the flamer or phosphor blaster these guys can take. In addition you can fire at something else with the sergeant if you take the relevant upgrade. Finally cents are BS4 without any formations or anything.

That's just comparing the grav weapons though. The Plasma blasts are potentially way more deadly depending on the target.

Well, if you believe the rumours and it is something that scales, then my money would be on stat boost for every model in the unit in it. So +1BS for Destroyers for every model above three or something. But that would basically mean go big or go home, at which point I would go back to Skits and call it a day

HAHA well god big or go home isn't so bad. I think one of them also sad you get extra shots from that rumor. Sooooo <.< more shots for every model i mean that's pretty big. I dont know they look like what i want. I'm definitly going to run them come hell or high water. I like the bigger models, elite units, smaller model count army, fun lore that can be taken lots of different ways, and models that scream to be customized out the ears.... literally.

Haha i'm so committed i already bought some kastelan robots. My fear for the army is they lack anti air outside of shooting up.

Well that's only if you don't count an Onager with Icarus Array. That's one of the best AA platforms in the game IMO

[Frater Cornelius]

I think the biggest issue, that probably even Canticles won't be solving, is that they pose too much of a threat. Much like Centurions, the opponent will want to kill them ASAP. Of cause, you can use that to your advantage, but it is still painful to see 'em go.