Vel'Cona Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 I do agree, at 58 smackers a box needing 3 boxes minimum (and a Dominus, here's hoping he isn't Sanguinary Priest cost) to run the formations is a bit steep. Here's hoping the rewards are worth the buy-in (assuming the rumors, the answer is probably yes). I agree that you will need to be careful when balancing how many units you take for Cult Mech. It actually adds an interesting concept to the army: do I push to make it a "pure" force to get the best Canticles I can, or do I just take what I actually need to make my army work (alongside Skitarii, IK, et al) and treat the Canticles as a nice bonus? If anything this rule is even more thought provoking than Doctrina Imperatives, as the Skitarii's army wide special rule isn't so much an "if" as it is a "when", ie. you know you'll probably use the big BS buffs early on, and swap to light WS buffs as the gap narrows. Use of Canticles seems to be a lot less fluid and more target/situation of opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 That's a good point. I really hope the 8 unit think is very appealing so you feel like you miss something if you dont take it. That way their is an actual choice to make. Well one the canticles definitely seems like a first turn one. The cover save. That one is just too important. Getting big cover saves on your whole army to stop turn 1 alpha strikes and such. It's just too good. Specially if your already in cover, and get like a 2+ save on everything or something of the like. kinda nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N1SB Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 1st, thanks for this discussion. As I'm keen on using the Elimination Maniple, which requires the Destroyers, I do wish to understand the trade-offs better. Well one the canticles definitely seems like a first turn one. The cover save. That one is just too important. Getting big cover saves on your whole army to stop turn 1 alpha strikes and such. It's just too good. Specially if your already in cover, and get like a 2+ save on everything or something of the like. kinda nuts. An excellent point. Having played some Skitarii Vanguards and Rangers, I found their equivalent of Canticles, the Doctrina Imperatives, have a massive affect if applied with just the bare minimum common sense. There was also a sequence to it; with Skitarii, it was very simple, you start off high BS, gradually move down to chart to high WS in the endgame (or using none at all, which is an option). I'm guessing there will be something similar here, that there will be clear game-starting Canticles and endgame ones. That said, it's very important to consider what the units can do even without the Canticles/Doctrina Imperatives, because they're more of a Force Multiplier than just Value-Add. So this is all very relevant, even before we get those leaks. From the looks of things, with my focus on the Elimination Maniple, I may be better served with taking more Kastelans even though they are so expensive points-wise. We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 So, how are folks planning on arming Destroyers again? I'm leaning towards Graviton (more shots than Plasma) and Cognis Flamer (for CC defense as the Kastelan's Phosphor is better). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 I feel like Plasma or Graviton are solid for Destroyers, but honestly the latter is probably stronger since we have Plasma support elsewhere (Skitarii codex). As for the backup weapon, if you're running the Ignores Cover formation then you probably won't need the Phosphor Blaster. I think the Cognis Flamer is a nice second option (considering the rarity of Template weapons for AdMech in general), but I'm not sure it's worth the extra cost. You may not be wanting to get close enough to use it, in either case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted May 17, 2015 Author Share Posted May 17, 2015 So, how are folks planning on arming Destroyers again? I'm leaning towards Graviton (more shots than Plasma) and Cognis Flamer (for CC defense as the Kastelan's Phosphor is better). Definitely Cognis Flamer and park them next to the Pipe Lines of the Void Shield Relay Network. The other weapon is up to debate. If BS can be boosted, then Grav. If not, then Plasma. I am also tending towards to Plasma because it synergizes well with their Torrent Flamer thanks to the Pipe Line to pile wounds on units. I mean, you are going to face a bunch of dudes far more often than a Wraith Knight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 So, how are folks planning on arming Destroyers again? I'm leaning towards Graviton (more shots than Plasma) and Cognis Flamer (for CC defense as the Kastelan's Phosphor is better). Definitely Cognis Flamer and park them next to the Pipe Lines of the Void Shield Relay Network. The other weapon is up to debate. If BS can be boosted, then Grav. If not, then Plasma. I am also tending towards to Plasma because it synergizes well with their Torrent Flamer thanks to the Pipe Line to pile wounds on units. I mean, you are going to face a bunch of dudes far more often than a Wraith Knight.I don't know how much I like the pipes though. I seems a little boring :p. But even then I feel you'd only get like 1 good torrent off before you get all kinds of charged haha. I do however agree with the defensive flamers. Makes getting charged not so Scarry when you get 9 free hits in. As for cult anti horde. Maybe the kasteslen will be better with their torrent flamer. Doesn't cost more points and you don't kind those guys out in the middle of the field. Plus, if they get charged in the next turn I kind of kitty the charging force haha. Not the best, but better than most things folks throw mid field fishing for points. Edit though I do agree that plasma seems really nice. Its more of a take all comers kind of weapons. If you had 3 units of destroyer I'd run all with flamers: 2 units with plasma and 1 unit with grav to wreck MCs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted May 17, 2015 Author Share Posted May 17, 2015 Well, I will be using the Void Shield Relay Network and one set of pipes are mandatory. Might as well make use of them. I mean, not like the Phosphor Blasters will be any good on the Destroyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Fair enough. Well if the no cover save thing is true. Than you'd beable to get a big unit pretty low with the destroy and then have another unit finish the now -1 cover save unit off. lol though that's still kinda meh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targetlock Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Do we know the stats yet of their weapon options wondering how good the plasma culverin and the heavy grav cannon are? no worries hehe: http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/weapons-and-rules-of-kataphron-battle.html yep definitely doing a unit of them I think for my force. a unit of them with grav weapons appeals to me i think :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Yeah, I like the Grav Cannon quite a bit, but I'm holding out for the formations before I make a call. If they match up to the rumors, they may just be the "default" build for Kataphrons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Well see i think it's a bit closer than that These calcuation are based on direct hits (either a direct on the scatter or rolls that are equal to or less than your BS) and on 3 models being under a blast (which i figure is pretty common even more so with the new larger bases coming out) BS 3 Unit of Plasmas will do 5.88 MEQ wounds unit of grav will do 6 BS4 Plasma does 6.66 grav does 8 again remember the blast ignores the chance of hitting units you dont directly hit. I think in both cases they are close enough that both might be worth taking. I think baring allies cult still looks quite ill prepared fighting against hordes. i figure atleast a 1 of in each unit or a unit of them might be decent; if you were running mono cultt or had allies who also didn't bring much in an anti horde situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I think the big issue for Plasma Kulverins is Gets Hot! In a minimum squad of Plasma-carrying Destroyers you're looking at a single check every two turns; since these guys are already going to take a lot of attention (thanks to their huge footprint and notably dangerous firepower), it's likely that when you fail those Gets Hot! saves it'll kill the model (since he'll probably have a wound already if the opponent isn't asleep). Until we know of any available re-rolls (Preferred Enemy, for example) for the Kataphrons, this represents a risk some players may not want to take. Also, consider that the Kulverin's S7 is going to be less useful for anti-armor work. While Grav isn't the best at this, it's still more useful when engaging AV 14 targets. Finally, 24" range vs. 30" range. While 6" may not sound like a lot (no pun intended), it does give the Destroyers more flexibility to stay at range (where they want to be) and avoid getting charged/blitzed by Rapid Fire weapons, in addition to making maximum use of available cover (they NEED cover saves!). If you decide to stay with the Phosphor Blaster, you will be wasting its opportunity to shoot by staying at > 24", but IMO this is probably worth it for the majority of situations (and you can always swap for the Cognis Flamer, which is pretty good). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronin_cse Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 After looking over the rules some more now that I have the WD I may be reconsidering my previous stance on the breachers. I feel like their claws are still effectively useless, but then again in many cases the destroyers' secondary weapons won't be very useful either (seems like they are there mostly to help with overwatch). I guess I hadn't considered how good 6 24" haywire shots will be at taking out armour, or how scary str 8 ap 1 D3 wound/HP shots can be. I may end up trying them out after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I think the big issue for Plasma Kulverins is Gets Hot! In a minimum squad of Plasma-carrying Destroyers you're looking at a single check every two turns; since these guys are already going to take a lot of attention (thanks to their huge footprint and notably dangerous firepower), it's likely that when you fail those Gets Hot! saves it'll kill the model (since he'll probably have a wound already if the opponent isn't asleep). Until we know of any available re-rolls (Preferred Enemy, for example) for the Kataphrons, this represents a risk some players may not want to take. Also, consider that the Kulverin's S7 is going to be less useful for anti-armor work. While Grav isn't the best at this, it's still more useful when engaging AV 14 targets. Finally, 24" range vs. 30" range. While 6" may not sound like a lot (no pun intended), it does give the Destroyers more flexibility to stay at range (where they want to be) and avoid getting charged/blitzed by Rapid Fire weapons, in addition to making maximum use of available cover (they NEED cover saves!). If you decide to stay with the Phosphor Blaster, you will be wasting its opportunity to shoot by staying at > 24", but IMO this is probably worth it for the majority of situations (and you can always swap for the Cognis Flamer, which is pretty good). Good point, but maybe a 1 of in a unit of gravs. If your going against imperial guard, Those troops will think your shooting them with tickle lazers. Plus by spliting up the plasmas they can't really get focused down. After looking over the rules some more now that I have the WD I may be reconsidering my previous stance on the breachers. I feel like their claws are still effectively useless, but then again in many cases the destroyers' secondary weapons won't be very useful either (seems like they are there mostly to help with overwatch). I guess I hadn't considered how good 6 24" haywire shots will be at taking out armour, or how scary str 8 ap 1 D3 wound/HP shots can be. I may end up trying them out after all. Yeah, but i dont know about the torion cannon. I guess the way it works is the arc rifle obliterates vehicles, and the torsion cannon destroys MCs. Both are only kind of passible at doing the others roll. torsion has to pen to do the d3 wounds, and the arc can be armour saved against. I like the arcs abit better though because grav rifles already kinda destroy most monsterous creatures. as for the claw. One of the rumored canticles was more attacks. So if your able to suddenly get like 3 more attacks it doesn't matter if the breacher only has 1 attack on their sheet. in the immortal words of Vel'cona the army could be amazing or terrible based on what the 'canticles of the omnissah' do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castellan Cato Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 *snip* In the immortal words of Vel'cona the army could be amazing or terrible based on what the 'canticles of the omnissah' do. Don't forget any special rules the magos might have as well. He surely won't just be a pistol toting IC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Based on the early spoiler pics, he'll have at least some form of Power Axe and a rifle-like ranged weapon. The pic looks Plasma-like, but it's not entirely obvious yet how he'll be equipped stock. And of course, we'll have a ranged weapons and relics list for some additional upgrades. Can't wait for the next set of spoilers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 oh man tell me about the next spoilers are going to be a drool fest and a half lmao!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yodhrin Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Based on the early spoiler pics, he'll have at least some form of Power Axe and a rifle-like ranged weapon. The pic looks Plasma-like, but it's not entirely obvious yet how he'll be equipped stock. And of course, we'll have a ranged weapons and relics list for some additional upgrades. Can't wait for the next set of spoilers! Gamma Pistol/Serpenta and a Power Axe with special rules, judging by the model. I'm hoping, likely in vain, that the Magos will be an exception to recent clampack characters and will come with a reasonable selection of bitz, rather than just a head-swap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Well that weapon hanging from his hips was huge I think it'll be any of the servitor weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronin_cse Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I know it probably isn't the most efficient, but I'm planning on going with one unit of each with mixed weapons. Assuming I am doing this what does everyone think the best mix would be? I'm fairly certain my Destroyers will be 2 Grav 1 Plasma but I can't decide on the Breachers, do I want 2 Arc Guns or 2 Torsion Cannons? The Torsion Cannons look more fun but I'm thinking the arc weapons may be better. Well that weapon hanging from his hips was huge I think it'll be any of the servitor weapons. In case you don't follow the rumor thread he has a Volkite gun and an Eradication Beamer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 For those of you who've seen the new formation coming in next week's WD, I take back everything I said about Kataphrons w/ Plasma Culverins IF you're using this formation. Since they'll get to ignore Gets Hot!, there's almost no downside in spamming Kulverin Destroyers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithrilForge Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 For those of you who've seen the new formation coming in next week's WD, I take back everything I said about Kataphrons w/ Plasma Culverins IF you're using this formation. Since they'll get to ignore Gets Hot!, there's almost no downside in spamming Kulverin Destroyers! You know that formation would be cool (pun intended) ...But... what happens a year or two from now when GW changes formations to adapt to the "new release" for the Ad-Mech product line and we suddenly have to change out the Plasma we had on everything because its been Nerfed... I wonder how Many Players out there Have a massive overabundance of Blood angel jump pack troops elites sorry for my pessimism back on topic...i'm really loving the breachers/destroyers and yes i'm in the camp of "i don't know yet how to run em!?! Mithril Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted May 20, 2015 Author Share Posted May 20, 2015 Magnets or other means of temporary attachment for easy of switching weapons will solve that problem for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 But even without Gets Hot, doesn't the Grav do more damage to MEQ? Any real reason to take Plasma? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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