Kataphron Breachers/Destroyers

[mmimzie]

One other little thing: the destroyers fall a little short of Centurions for shooting. Cents get to re-roll their wounds from the grav, which IMO is better than 1 extra grav shot, and they can take missiles or bolters which I think are a little better than the flamer or phosphor blaster these guys can take. In addition you can fire at something else with the sergeant if you take the relevant upgrade. Finally cents are BS4 without any formations or anything.

 

That's just comparing the grav weapons though. The Plasma blasts are potentially way more deadly depending on the target.

 

 

Well that's only if you don't count an Onager with Icarus Array. That's one of the best AA platforms in the game IMO

Yeah might be better with the plasma but i couldn't do the calculations of blast weapons. it's too... weird lol. That's damage over two dimensions. I mean its do able but its not worth me doing it? lmao!!

 

I think the destroyers will be best with a 2:1 ratios of grav to plasma. Then the unit will do quite well against tough targets and squishy; giving the unit the ability more or less to take care of any infantry. 

[skeletoro]

If they're middle of the road durability and a massive threat, yes, they will get focused down.

 

But why is this a massive problem?

 

Let's say they're about as tough as 150 points of most other units (ie about as tough as their points value would lead you to expect), but have the shooting power of 300 points of most other units. Let's say they die t1 before doing anything. Well yeah, you lost about 150 points of your army. But casualties are to be expected. As long as your opponent had to expend an appropriate amount of firepower to destroy them, you've lost 150 points of destroyers, but you would likely have lost a similar amount if your opponent had shot at something else.

 

You've lost 300 points worth of firepower. But it only cost you 150 points. In this game, the kataphron were OK. Not great, but OK. Any Kataphron that survive to shoot, however, will pay their points back double.

 

I CAN see them being a downright liability if we come to the conclusion that they are actually downright squishy for their points, or if they have a unique vulnerability that provides your opponent with a way of getting better efficiency out of their arsenal. Will your opponent's autocannons get better mileage shooting at kataphrons than at ironstriders or baymaxes? That's the question.

[Kilofix]

I don't think the 4+ is a problem. They have the range so just sit them behind a cheap Aegis Def. Line.

[skeletoro]

i definitely think they'll want to stay in cover.

[Vel'Cona]

Yeah, agreed on the cover.  Here's hoping they get a piece of wargear somewhere in the army that hands out Stealth/Shroud or the like.

 

Alternatively, maybe a way to get them Feel No Pain (seems pretty standard for AdMech, surprised they didn't rate it when the Skitarii do).

[ronin_cse]

Yeah, agreed on the cover.  Here's hoping they get a piece of wargear somewhere in the army that hands out Stealth/Shroud or the like.

 

Alternatively, maybe a way to get them Feel No Pain (seems pretty standard for AdMech, surprised they didn't rate it when the Skitarii do).

 

Surprised you didn't jump on this: Throw in a Sanguinary Priest! 2 birds with one stone really since if you're going to ally in SM it may as well be BA for the drop pods.

[mmimzie]

Now that i've had time to let it all settle abit. I think they are all quite decent enough for not having all detachments and special rules yet.

 

Destroyers are squishy, but you need 60(edit for math) bolters to take out unit reliably. Give them a cover save and they aren't too bad. T5 isn't too much to sneeze at and it's really only 150 points. The damage they can put out is comparibly to nude vanguards and for stuff stuff grav guns rock and squishier stuff plasma blaster is great. So both are probably equaly good against MEQ but plasma is better for the more GEQ side, and Grav is better for TEQ/MC side of it all. I think either units mixed with grav and plasma or one grav and one plasma unit.

 

Breachers are nice because they are tough as nails, and each one brings anti tank weapons. 1 unit pops off 6 anti tank rounds or 2.5 glancing hits with the odd chance of pens. So each unit comes pretty close to knocking out a tank.

 

Both units are basicly like super special weapons platforms. Breachers pop tanks and MCs; Destroyers pop various types of infantry and MCs. No anti air so far so you'll need to out source that. Kastelans are abit redundant with the destroyers. Hopes are the wargear or warlord abilities will bring anti air.

 

So as a stand alone they either need the priest to be ninja fast or have a Move, Move, Move style canticle that pushes the army up the board. Something like "presession of metal" would be cool. Otherwise getting objectives on the map will be tough.

[Frater Cornelius]

@ mmimzie - I managed to come with a way how to quantify hit rolls for blast weapons. It is pretty simple once you get it, but still pretty long-winded, but is as close as it gets without without involving vector calculations. I am an economist, not a physician and while I love 40k, there is some things I would not do for it :D

Anyway, lemme know if you want some info on it for future reference.

[Hellrender]

We already know that skitarii and knights work well together, mainly because skitts are nicely priced and bring some things that knights lack (AA and volume of fire). But what does Cult bring to knights? To specify, what do the breachers/Destroyers bring to a knight primary?

 

It is just, i'm a traitorous son of chaos, and these models would be perfect to convert up. Much better than the skitts, atleast until i get a decent sized bits box to cover the skitts. These models also make great stand in oblits and what not. So to me, it's important to see if these guys can work :)

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, Cult does not bring numbers, that is for sure. Breachers could be solid anti tank units, only let down by their BS. But I do not think that Cult and Knights will mesh. You can add both Knights and Cult to Skits. My opinion is that the Skits is the glue that keeps them together.

Cult will also work well with Imperial Guard, much like Knights.

[Zembar]

I'm holding out for information on formations and Canticles of the Omnissiah. They could make or break this force.

[Charlo]

Wouldn't it be funny if the formations were the canticles.... :P

[Zembar]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that special rules are not formations...

[Charlo]

...... I mean as in the special rules got leaked wrong or something. People are saying it's to do with a number of units etc. Just a possibility, nothing more.

[Zembar]

...and my point is that the rules we already have for the Kastelan RobotManiple, in an existing WD you could go out and buy today, include the special rule "Canticles of the Omnissiah"

[Hellrender]

Well, Cult does not bring numbers, that is for sure. Breachers could be solid anti tank units, only let down by their BS. But I do not think that Cult and Knights will mesh. You can add both Knights and Cult to Skits. My opinion is that the Skits is the glue that keeps them together.

Cult will also work well with Imperial Guard, much like Knights.

 

Yeh, i was guessing Cult and Knights would fill a similar role.

I will have to keep thinking on a good way of representing a dark mech force then :P I feel CSM feels less and less like CSM, but a full on dark magos/heretek led force would be epic. Also entertained the thought for a Traitor Knight house (note, not a daemonic Knight house), but that fully depends on how that first knight ends up. If i'm happy with the result i might follow up on that :)

[Targetlock]

Working on a dark mech force right now hehe :)

[Vel'Cona]

It's  shame that the Breachers waste an arm on the melee weapon, because honestly they seem like a solid mobile firepower unit if only they could get a second gun.  The fact that they can't Run is a pretty big problem, as you're stuck with their 6" move and Very Bulky makes allied transports very nearly a non-option.  I'm a bit confused why they didn't at least rate WS 4 or a second attack, as well.

 

We really are just holding out for the Formations and additional special rules, at this point.  As it stands, Skitarii have a serious leg up on the Cult book for the moment.

[Charlo]

If you think of the breachers as building killers they make a lot of sense, they don't need to be fast to catch buildings and terison plus hydraulics will punch put fortifications (hopefully).

 

Sadly that's too niche a use. Deep striking them accurately is okay I suppose? But most of thier targets will be able to just.... Run away.

[Happy-inquisitor]

I don't think the 4+ is a problem. They have the range so just sit them behind a cheap Aegis Def. Line.

 

Or Prometheum Relay pipes - because torrent flamers are so much better than normal flamers in almost every way.

[Vel'Cona]

I guess you could use them as a redirector to force enemy units off objectives, too. For example, enemy is camping on an objective with something, you DS your Breachers behind them and force them to either a. run away or b. stay put and get charged by the Breachers. Here's hoping their Formation lets them be ObjSec, too; then we have a great way to steal objectives mid to late game. That said, Breachers in CC aren't necessarily a sure thing, because they're slow and have such a poor number of attacks. Even worse, no grenades. Man, I just keep talking myself out of this unit, don't I?

[Frater Cornelius]

Hm, you that you say it: Void Shields. Perfect for stopping small arms early game. Heavy-duty firepower will focus on Kastelans or IK, which you want to keep in the open so the opponent shoots them. They can take it.

[Happy-inquisitor]

One other little thing: the destroyers fall a little short of Centurions for shooting. Cents get to re-roll their wounds from the grav, which IMO is better than 1 extra grav shot, and they can take missiles or bolters which I think are a little better than the flamer or phosphor blaster these guys can take. In addition you can fire at something else with the sergeant if you take the relevant upgrade. Finally cents are BS4 without any formations or anything.

 

That's just comparing the grav weapons though. The Plasma blasts are potentially way more deadly depending on the target.

 

Grav Cents are also a lot more expensive. For the cost of 4 grav centurions you can get 6 grav destroyers. Whether those 36 shots do more or less damage than the 20 from the centurions will depend on a lot of variables but I would hesitate to call them inferior.

 

That does not mean the centurions are suddenly obsolete, just that I think the points cost of the destroyers is about right and makes it a trickier decision choosing which fits your army concept best.

[abraxus]

Plus your grav tread heads will wound on 2+ while the Cents fire will return wound on 4+.

[Targetlock]

I really like them to be honest, mainly because of the in my mind cool models but definitely prefer the destroyers to the breachers though.