Kataphron Breachers/Destroyers

[Frater Cornelius]

But even without Gets Hot, doesn't the Grav do more damage to MEQ?

 

Any real reason to take Plasma?

They are BS3. Unless Canticles improve that, Blasts might be a touch more reliable.

[Frater Cornelius]

I think I have a decent way to field the Destroyers if you are taking them as an ally to any army, really. Get the Tech Priest and one unit of Destroyers with Grav and Flamers (probably three to five dudes). The TP can tank with his 2+ and FnP and restore HP to himself or the unit (if I understand the rules correctly).

This fire-base will be pretty durable.

[mmimzie]

But even without Gets Hot, doesn't the Grav do more damage to MEQ?

Any real reason to take Plasma?

Plasma is only really good for horde style situations. Again i know it sounds silly but with clumped up units and crappy armour saves of hordes it's one of 2 of the cults anti horde options.

i guess 3 because the tech priest can take a pretty good blast weapon with his BS 5.

[Vel'Cona]

I think we're still in standby on the Kataphrons until we have reveals of Canticles, Relics, and Formations.  There's a lot we still don't know, so I advise not assembling these guys until we have the full picture!

[mmimzie]

I magnetize all my models. I'm a big magnet fan; have a few jars of them, and found my book with my magnetizing set up.

[Vel'Cona]

That's wise.  I'm too lazy for general magnetizing and I hate painting up all the options.  If I magnetize something, then it's got to be an absolutely 50/50 option (like my Onager's weapons).

[pompeyladbfp]

yeah only magnetise 50/50stuff... but these will defo be magnetised as i can see me using plasma in the WD formation, but grav normally. Same as using haywires, u nless i have skitarrii allies, then ill prob use contosion gun

[Vel'Cona]

You know, I may just magnetize my Kataphrons after all.  It'll really depend on how the weapon arms are joined to the torsos.

[Castellan Cato]

You know, I may just magnetize my Kataphrons after all.  It'll really depend on how the weapon arms are joined to the torsos.

 

I looked at this for a long time over the weekend.  It looks like there is a single shoulder mount and then the diffference between guns is just the barrel.  Should be magnetize-able

[Frater Cornelius]

In the best case scenario they just stick without magnets or glue.

[mmimzie]

In the best case scenario they just stick without magnets or glue.

Kastelans carapace weapon mount does this really well.

 

and the destroy big weapon is kind of on it's shoulder as well so it's fair to say they might model similiarly

[PraetorDragoon]

What do you people is the best way to use Breachers? I like those guys a bit more than the Destroyes myself.

[Frater Cornelius]

Arc Platform. I suppose the D3 wound thing might be very attractive to hunt MCs. With a few lucky rolls you can easily outperform Grav, given their poor BS. I suppose this wilo be subject to testing.

[PraetorDragoon]

Arc Platform. I suppose the D3 wound thing might be very attractive to hunt MCs. With a few lucky rolls you can easily outperform Grav, given their poor BS. I suppose this wilo be subject to testing.

 

I see. Is it worth for upgrading the claws? I kinda like the +2 strength.

 

Speaking of the Torsion Cannons, how would you think these fare against Thunderwolves?

[Frater Cornelius]

It could be devastating. One failed save means one dead TWC 2/3 of the time. Napkin math 4 Grav Destroyers will cause 8/3 wounds against TWC with SS. 4 Torison will cause two hits and each hit has a 10/36 chance to kill a TWC with SS in one go, meaning at best you get 4 effective wounds and at worst you get 1 wound with saves calculated in.

Against TWC without a save 4 Destroyers do 8 wounds (4 dead TWC) and the Torison can still only kill 2 models at most but one at least.

 

So Grav will still be better if they have no save. Against TWC with save it depends on luck but will still outperform Torison because of consistency.

 

Okay, I think Torison is worse agsinst Toughness models unless you have a bad save (for Grav to wound roll), but high T usually have a decent one.

4 Grav dudes will cause two Grav effects on a vehicle which results in 3 hull points lost. 4 Torison will get two hits, meaning at best 6HP and 1 at worst (depending on AV since it is S8). Too inconsistent.

 

So yeah, Arc Platform will work best due to the gun being S6 and thus also decent against T. But Skitarii do Arc better.

 

Hmmm...

[Targetlock]

still leaning towards grav weaponry myself, but then i do like grav :) but tempted by plasma when combined with that rumoured detachment, which my army is planning towards anyway, even if it is a dark mechanicus version.

[Vel'Cona]

I really like the idea of Breachers, but their lack of mobility is a huge issue for trying to get them to combat.  Compared to Vanguard:

 

10 Skitarii Vanguard, 3 Arc Rifles:  145

3 Kataphron Breachers:  150

 

The Vanguard get 3 shots @ 24", on the move.  6 shots @ 12".

Breachers get 6 shots @ 36" whether they move or not.

 

So the Breachers are clearly the better mobile Haywire unit, if placed on foot.  They also have better close combat capability vs. vehicles thanks to Haywire melee attacks.

 

What the Breachers lack is the excellent torrent capability of the Rad Carbine, and they're also a lot slower as the Skitarii get Scouts and can Run (with Crusader), assuming you're taking some form of Skitarii Maniple.  They also make better use of allied transports, since the Kataphrons are Very Bulky.

[Scurvydog]

I really like the idea of Breachers, but their lack of mobility is a huge issue for trying to get them to combat.  Compared to Vanguard:

 

10 Skitarii Vanguard, 3 Arc Rifles:  145

3 Kataphron Breachers:  150

 

The Vanguard get 3 shots @ 24", on the move.  6 shots @ 12".

Breachers get 6 shots @ 36" whether they move or not.

 

So the Breachers are clearly the better mobile Haywire unit, if placed on foot.  They also have better close combat capability vs. vehicles thanks to Haywire melee attacks.

 

What the Breachers lack is the excellent torrent capability of the Rad Carbine, and they're also a lot slower as the Skitarii get Scouts and can Run (with Crusader), assuming you're taking some form of Skitarii Maniple.  They also make better use of allied transports, since the Kataphrons are Very Bulky.

 

Also breachers can't be from an elimination maniple, so they will only have BS3 and not ignore cover. Vanguards got BS4 (without any doctrines) and can get omnispex to reduce cover, which both increases their output potential a lot. With tactical placement they can also take more wounds before loosing any arc rifle output. The breachers are a little harder to wound though, but only needs 2 wounds to loose a big chunk of firepower. I feel like combining my skitters with cult for cool factor mostly atm, because outside the nasty elimination maniple they don't bring that much, which skitters can't cover themselves. 

 

The deep striking breacher formation might be worth it, if the unit got spit fire, but atm they might just drop down, kill a tank at somewhat equal points and then get blown to bits. 

[mmimzie]

yeah you do get deep strike with the breechers, but why.

 

If your gonna take skits. I'd take the breechers with arc rifles, and then give the vanguards something else or nothing at all. The vanguards are vulnerable the breecher are beef cakes. let em beef it up and shoot up the tanks. Let the vangaurd eat the troops.

[Vel'Cona]

Oh right, forgot the BS.  Good catch!  Doctrina Imperatives make the Vanguard considerably more accurate, so that's a pretty huge factor.  At the moment I'm feeling that Destroyers are the stronger option, but I'm not writing off the Breachers until the full codex lands.

[Frater Cornelius]

Right now Skits offer more cost-efficient output in terms of Arc. This puts Breachers in a tight spot in combined lists.

 

Also, what is everyone's obsession with the Elimination Maniple? You do not get the Magos, who is one of the best tanks in the game for its points. And it starts at 620pts at minimum.

Don't get me wrong, it is a marvelous Formation and it is powerful. However, I would prefer it if I could skip the Bots and take a Magos instead :D

[PraetorDragoon]

Right now Skits offer more cost-efficient output in terms of Arc. This puts Breachers in a tight spot in combined lists.

Also, what is everyone's obsession with the Elimination Maniple? You do not get the Magos, who is one of the best tanks in the game for its points. And it starts at 620pts at minimum.

Don't get me wrong, it is a marvelous Formation and it is powerful. However, I would prefer it if I could skip the Bots and take a Magos instead

I don't get it either. It's currently even only a rumoured formation! For all we know it requires max sized units or something. ;)

Any reason why you can take the kataphrons in units of 12?

[angrom]

IS anyone know if the mechanicum codex will get access to servant with plasma/melta/bolter? or anything similar?

[Frater Cornelius]

Destroyers can get Plasma Cannons. That is it.

[Scurvydog]

Well if the leaked formations are true, a kastellan from the elimination maniple will do near twice the amount of unsaved wounds on meq (if they are in 5+ cover or more).

 

The dominus is good, but giving my knight the boot to make room for this maniple in my army would be my first choice. I guess it might depends on how terrain heavy a meta you play in, which of course will have a large impact. I can't wait to point my kastellans on a unit of long fangs in a ruin and just ask my opponent to remove them from 1 round of shooting ;)