Kataphron Breachers/Destroyers

[mmimzie]

Right now Skits offer more cost-efficient output in terms of Arc. This puts Breachers in a tight spot in combined lists.

Also, what is everyone's obsession with the Elimination Maniple? You do not get the Magos, who is one of the best tanks in the game for its points. And it starts at 620pts at minimum.

Don't get me wrong, it is a marvelous Formation and it is powerful. However, I would prefer it if I could skip the Bots and take a Magos instead

I dont know i think if you wanna blow up vehicles breechers in that formation do it better. Sure by turn 2 skittari put out 6 hull points (total over the turns) over the breechers 5 from shooting, but in the formation you can deep strike cuddling a tank or something fire your guys at a tank, then turn two shoot another tank and charge the cuddled tank if it didn't go flat out (but if its a shooty tank and it went flat out you won).

Though i think that statement makes lot of assumption about both units. One it assume your skitari will have a target in 24 inches on the first turn and one in 12 on the second turn, which might be tough to pull of. It also assume your behind enemy lines breechers don't get assault and/or surrounded by some cheap throw away units, but i dont think range would an issue because you just deep striked in the middle of the enemy's side of the board. In either case we are assuming that both units live for a second turn.

You dont need the magos the data priest can get relics and wargear so fi that stuffs any good you wont be missing out. Then the elimination maniple is just plain goodness, and you can say thier squishy, but skitari are also squishy. Destroyers just don't have to move half way accross the board to get thier point across. they can do it from home in cover, and even make some more cover of their own.

Either way if we are comparing skits and cult mech. Honestly Cult mech is gonna live a turn of shooting, and skitarii are gonna get thier cherries popped if they don't eliminate most of the enemy army. At this point i think it's safe to assume cult will get atleast a 4+ cover save from canticles, and if your in terrain or screned your gonna get a 2+, but skitarri put out the alpha strike. So the difference between the two is "Do you want based off your turn 1 shooting? Skitarii" or "Do you want to win by not getting wiped off the board by turn 1 shoot? Cult"

[Scurvydog]

What the elimination maniple also allows is to place destroyers behind allied skitters or even the kastellans, since they ignore cover, this does not help the enemy but helps you. This formation is perfect for screening the otherwise somewhat squishy destroyers

[mmimzie]

According to the new formatiom and relic I formation breechers seem like they are the way to go. The ingore cover is only after something is lit with luminagin. Now if it could can lit by anything it might still be good because the kastelan formation is nuts giving the whole unin iwnd

 

Breacher rock though because they can be taken in formation with a domi, and hut the field more or less anywhere. Additionally, the domi with the breechers can take a relic that let's you reroll to hit and glance a vehicle. This means you will 100% for sure kill at least one vehicle a turn and seriously injure another.

 

I think I'm gonna rock the new kastelan death star and a strike force of tank popper vehicles for my 1500 list.

[Frater Cornelius]

According to the new formatiom and relic I formation breechers seem like they are the way to go. The ingore cover is only after something is lit with luminagin. Now if it could can lit by anything it might still be good because the kastelan formation is nuts giving the whole unin iwnd

 

Breacher rock though because they can be taken in formation with a domi, and hut the field more or less anywhere. Additionally, the domi with the breechers can take a relic that let's you reroll to hit and glance a vehicle. This means you will 100% for sure kill at least one vehicle a turn and seriously injure another.

 

I think I'm gonna rock the new kastelan death star and a strike force of tank popper vehicles for my 1500 list.

 

I will also combine by 30 Vanguard and 3 Onagers with the Kastelan Maniple (4 dudes, 2 Smithies, 1 Priest) at 1650pts I think. But yeah, the Breachers do look quite handy. The deep strike is powerful. But is it more powerful than the sheer, balls-out staying power of the Maniple? If you place your objectives smart, you can have the Maniple deny two objectives just by standing there and giving the middle finger to most guns.

[mmimzie]

Well I just assume take both. The vehicle stopping power on a unit that will be pretty well protected with 3+ T5 and a domi patching a few wounds. You'd kill about 1 and a half of your average vehicles a turn.

 

The kastelan formation is your core and basicly claims your half the map and popping enemy units like gallons. Do most 40k tournaments limit your formation/detachment use?

[Frater Cornelius]

Well I just assume take both. The vehicle stopping power on a unit that will be pretty well protected with 3+ T5 and a domi patching a few wounds. You'd kill about 1 and a half of your average vehicles a turn.

 

The kastelan formation is your core and basicly claims your half the map and popping enemy units like gallons. Do most 40k tournaments limit your formation/detachment use?

 

Codex Formations are fine, but Germany still limits it at two sources. Seen other tournaments do the same though. Either way, both Formations are rather expensive, so I guess you will need to choose. Do not forget, you still want manpower and you can not deny that Skits pop vehicles a lot more efficient with Omnispex and Doctrines.

[mmimzie]

True, if your closer, but at long range breachers get more shot; plus, a breacher can fire and charge and at that point it can take out almost any vehicle in melee almost 100% of the time. Plus with the vehicle spotter a breacher unit can kill almost any armour in one turn.

 

Also you know me bro I like my army to have similar toughness. Its my favorite advantage

 

Edit: what I'd actually want out side the kastelan is some fast map control dragoons.

[mmimzie]

Also the kataphrons can get cognis instead of the vehicle marking power from dominus.... That means you can roll 5+ on your breachers to haywire anti air.

[ronin_cse]

Also the kataphrons can get cognis instead of the vehicle marking power from dominus.... That means you can roll 5+ on your breachers to haywire anti air.

 That is an ok source of AA...of course an Onager is much better ;)

[Frater Cornelius]

Okay. We now had some time to look at the Relics and rules, so let me bump this one up. I think that these guys, being the Troops, will be the make or break part of the book.

Anyone want to share some opinions?

[Scurvydog]

I can imagine a dominus tanking for the destroyer unit rather effectively, but I don't see much else synergy, and I believe a domunis with breachers might be more dangerous if he brings the cognis relic so they can threaten both ground and air vehicles, maybe with a scryerskull as well, which allows for penetration rerolls to make those hits count.

 

It is a bit odd with troop choices which either shine at handling heavy infantry, especially TEQ, or popping vehicles in mid/close range, both variants will have a really hard time against hordes of ork boyz coming at them, which is where the only real option is the priests if you play pure cult.

 

The codex does include the skitarii faction in benefiting from nearly all special rules and relics, including the dominus' repair rule, and I believe the book is designed with the idea of taking at least the skitarii troops (hence the easy to include maniple). Some will disagree but the 2 admech books would have been so awesome as a single more unified book, but oh well.

 

In a meta with many elite armies the destroyers are definately a good buy for their points, especially due to their ability to bring grav weapons and 18 shots from 3 guys a turn will make MEQ players weep. The breachers are a bit odd, perhaps suited for screening an advance while taking out vehicles on the way, but it will bring them into trouble fast with assault armies and their 1 attack is beyond pathetic. I can see them having some merit on the formation which gives them deep strike and enables them to sit on exposed objectives more securely, with no scatter near objectives they could potentially jump right to a skyfire relay as well.

[Frater Cornelius]

I will definitely try two minimal units of Breachers or one slightly bigger one doing their thing. However, I am not sure whether I want the Magos to tank for Destroyers or Plasma Vanguard Warlord unit. Both ideas have merits.

 

I think the Scryerskull will be amazing in combination with Onager and Ironstriders.

[shocker3800]

I do like the idea of having 4 grav destroyers with the dominus, with the cognis relic. The 30" range on the grav cannon makes these guys very threatening. I would however run two squads of destroyers, just to split the threat.

[DeStinyFiSh]

Hey there,

 

I realy like the Destroyers for their damage output and the Breachers for their toughness.

 

I was thinking about playing the Holy Requisitioner Formation but not with the minimum requirements, but with 3 units of Breachers. This should be a lot of fun, especially when there are some infiltrators sitting in the opponents face as well.

First I was thinking of 2 x 3 with Arc Rifles, 1 x 6 with Torsion Canons. But now I am not sure whether the Torsion Canon is worth it or not. It is better than the Arc Rifles against MEQ, TEQ, Multi Wound Models and MCs, but worse against Hordes and even against vehicles (I have done the math in my head realy quickly; when using the canticles that let you return the hit rolls Arc rifle will become even better I guess). Playing just 3 Torsion Canonons seems not to be very reliable since they are only 1 shot at BS 3. A mix of Arc and Torsion is another option that may be considered (Arc for reliable damage, Torsion for some random fun).

 

Is a unit of 6 Breachers worth it or is it overkill / wasted points in most situations ?

[Frater Cornelius]

That is definitely a good way to hunt fliers. So if you do not want to run Icarus Onagers, this is your best bet.

 

Something I am lacking with both Cult and Skitarii is MC and 2+ killing. They can handle armour and hordes as well as MEQ just fine. However, they come to a screetching hold when they need to kill 2+ tanks or things like Dreadknights.

That is the reason why I think that a Destroyer unit with Magos will be mandatory. Especially since they outrange most threats.

Let Skits advance and spam wounds with Arc and Radium, maybe even AC as well as cover the skies. Let Cult provide some back-up Arc and the long-ranged firepower.

 

I want to try a 1850 list that had Magos with 4 Grav Destroyers, 3 Kastelans with 1 Smith, 2 units of 3 Arc or Torison Breachers, 3 full units of Arc Vanguard and 2 Icarus Onagers.

[mmimzie]

Holy requisition with 1 unit of 4 arc Riflers and 1 unit of 4 torsion cannons. Give the domi cognis and you have a deep striking unit that one shots most vehicles and MCs in 1 turn and can threaten flier of all kinds. This formation can be beefed with a third smaller 3 man squad if you want more stuff. Units of 3 staticitly will only leavethier targets limping, but still functional. Units of 4 out right remove the model and thus means you don't waste shots. The domi could join any of the units to give cognis to pop what ever flier, and they give you easy access to getting objective across the map.

 

 

I like the domi tanking for a plasma destriyer squad. He could take IWND and let the destroyer repair themselves when they take plasma wound, and he can tank shots.

 

Grav unit saith cognis domi is kinda meh. You can't really do anything to flying mech and holy helps with popping flying MCs. I think he grav boys are still best with cognis flamers to protect from being charged.

 

Either way I think holy requisition is pretty nice with cognis. Letting you pop a lot of different targets qnenclaik the map

[Yodhrin]

Can someone clarify for me, what are the rules about Relics, is it per-army or per-detachment/formation? By which I mean if you take a normal Cultmech detachment and follow mmimzie's suggestion of Plasma Destroyers with IWND Dominus, could you also take a Cybernetica Cohort formation with IWND Dominus, or can you only have one or the other?

[Frater Cornelius]

Can someone clarify for me, what are the rules about Relics, is it per-army or per-detachment/formation? By which I mean if you take a normal Cultmech detachment and follow mmimzie's suggestion of Plasma Destroyers with IWND Dominus, could you also take a Cybernetica Cohort formation with IWND Dominus, or can you only have one or the other?

 

Relics are one of each per army and only one per Character. So basically you need to choose between Tank-Hunter and IWND unless you have multiple TP. The rest can be taken by Data Smiths, so you will need Kastelans in one way or another.

[Scurvydog]

Skitarii and cult lacking teq or mc killyness? Hmm I don't quite agree, skitarii can handle just about anything, vanguards can put a lot of wounds on MCs with rad poisoning and plasma culverins eat teq and most MCs too.

 

Every single unit can get powerful special weapons, and cult with access to grav are the most dangerous teq ranged killers you can get.

[Frater Cornelius]

No, I means Skits lack TEQ and MC killyness. Sure, there are the Calivers, but they cost a lot and need to cross a bit of board before they shoot. Which is why I am including Grav Destroyers :P

[mmimzie]

No, I means Skits lack TEQ and MC killyness. Sure, there are the Calivers, but they cost a lot and need to cross a bit of board before they shoot. Which is why I am including Grav Destroyers

wise skitarii alpha say "He who throws lots of dice, and wounds twice (on 6s). slays all"

grav destroyers are techniquely better against most things with a 3+ or better armour save and no invuln or cover saves.

as soon as a unit gets a cover save or an invuln save vanguards will do more damage period. against MEQs gravs destroyers only do 1 extra wound. If you have MEqs with invuln than vanguards will win as they are take into account the 3+ cover save into thier damage. Vanguards are the squishy high damage kind of unit

[Yodhrin]

 

Can someone clarify for me, what are the rules about Relics, is it per-army or per-detachment/formation? By which I mean if you take a normal Cultmech detachment and follow mmimzie's suggestion of Plasma Destroyers with IWND Dominus, could you also take a Cybernetica Cohort formation with IWND Dominus, or can you only have one or the other?

 

Relics are one of each per army and only one per Character. So basically you need to choose between Tank-Hunter and IWND unless you have multiple TP. The rest can be taken by Data Smiths, so you will need Kastelans in one way or another.

 

 

Yes, but what I meant was what constitutes an "army" given both detachments and formations are essentially self-contained entities - does that mean I can take the IWND Relic twice, once on a Dominus in the CultMech detachment, and once on a Dominus in the Cohort formation, or does the fact they're from the same Faction mean they count as a single entity if taken together?

[ronin_cse]

 

 

Can someone clarify for me, what are the rules about Relics, is it per-army or per-detachment/formation? By which I mean if you take a normal Cultmech detachment and follow mmimzie's suggestion of Plasma Destroyers with IWND Dominus, could you also take a Cybernetica Cohort formation with IWND Dominus, or can you only have one or the other?

 

Relics are one of each per army and only one per Character. So basically you need to choose between Tank-Hunter and IWND unless you have multiple TP. The rest can be taken by Data Smiths, so you will need Kastelans in one way or another.

 

 

Yes, but what I meant was what constitutes an "army" given both detachments and formations are essentially self-contained entities - does that mean I can take the IWND Relic twice, once on a Dominus in the CultMech detachment, and once on a Dominus in the Cohort formation, or does the fact they're from the same Faction mean they count as a single entity if taken together?

 

 

Your army is your list including all detachments. So when it says 1 per army it means your entire list, regardless of what detachments or factions are included. For example, if you took a list with 1 CM CAD, 1 allied Tau detachment, and 1 Khorne Daemonkin Bloodhost formation that all counts as your army.

[Marshal Ommadon]

Since I'm playing a War Convocation I really can't afford to take squads of either Destroyers or Breachers at more than the 3 minimum.  My thought was to take two 3 man squads of Grav-Destroyers with my Dominus (also with the vehicle scryer relic) in-between both squads to bounce back and forth repairing wounds.  Would that be an acceptable tactic given my points limitation in a War Convocation?

 

On a side note when you mix Grav-Destroyers (in Ruins for a 4+ cover save) with the Canticles I think they out perform Breachers with or without Torsion Cannons and their 3+ armour save. 

[Frater Cornelius]

I limit my investment ment on the Sicarian variants to get more Kataphrons in there.