Marshal Ommadon Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 If I was to use the Holy Requisition Formation (Dominus and 2 Breachers) would that also count as a Battle Congregation? If this is true I'd use that and a Robot Maniple thus saving a few points to put elsewhere. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4065467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeStinyFiSh Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 If I was to use the Holy Requisition Formation (Dominus and 2 Breachers) would that also count as a Battle Congregation? If this is true I'd use that and a Robot Maniple thus saving a few points to put elsewhere. Nope. In a Battleforged Army each unit / model must be part of one and only one detachment (Battle Congregation) or formation (Holy Requisition). In an Unbound army detachments are not allowed (you can field the same models without geting the command benefit). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4065494 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Ommadon Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 So if I wanted to field a Skitarri Battle Maniple I would need 2 more units of either Rangers or Vanguard on top of the 2 required for the Formation? I thought I can could just field the Skitarii Battle Maniple and be fine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4065550 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeStinyFiSh Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 So if I wanted to field a Skitarri Battle Maniple I would need 2 more units of either Rangers or Vanguard on top of the 2 required for the Formation? I thought I can could just field the Skitarii Battle Maniple and be fine. No, why ? When you field just the units for the Battle Maniple every model is part of a formation, so it is a battleforged army according to the rules. If you add 2 more Skitarii, then you can field them as a Skitarii Maniple, so your amry would consist of 1 Skitarii Maniple and 1 Battle Maniple. Just read again the rules for Battleforged, Unbound, Detachments and Formations, then everything should be clear , this should not be discussed in theAd Mech forum Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4065579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 no you wouldn't need another 2 troops or something to get the detachment or what ever. Way formation and detachments work. basicly formations and detachments are the same, just detachments can only be used in battle fordged armies. a unit can only be apart of 1 detachment or formation, and can not cross over (unless it is a formation of detachments which is an easy, but very silly, way of organizing who gets what bonuses and what units you take) This means you can take more knight and cult models, but you can't take any more skitarii Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4065611 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Ommadon Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Then why can't I use the Holy Requisition Formation as my necessary Battle Congregation for a War Convocation? The Formation is 1 Dominus and 2 Breachers (1 HQ and 2 Troops). The Battle Congregation Detachment needs 1 HQ and 2 Troops as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4065641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Then why can't I use the Holy Requisition Formation as my necessary Battle Congregation for a War Convocation? The Formation is 1 Dominus and 2 Breachers (1 HQ and 2 Troops). The Battle Congregation Detachment needs 1 HQ and 2 Troops as well. because a unit can only be appart of 1 formation OR detachment. SO if it is in the holy req formation those untis can not also count as models toward the battle congregation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4065653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Then why can't I use the Holy Requisition Formation as my necessary Battle Congregation for a War Convocation? The Formation is 1 Dominus and 2 Breachers (1 HQ and 2 Troops). The Battle Congregation Detachment needs 1 HQ and 2 Troops as well. The Holy Requisition is a Formation. They don't take up any HQ, TROOPS, ELITE etc slots from your main detachment. The War Convocation requires the Battle Congregation detachment. Yes it just so happens by chance it has the same units types. But its not the same. By this logic, you think we can claim the CAD rules from the Big Rule book? Meaning we get Objective secure rule? No... it doesn't work that way. Each "Detachment" and each "Formation" has their own set of rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4065754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted May 31, 2015 Author Share Posted May 31, 2015 It is like saying your Hot Chocolate is your Chocolate cake as well. Yes, they both use chocolate but they are still different things Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4065760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 It is like saying your Hot Chocolate is your Chocolate cake as well. Yes, they both use chocolate but they are still different things please tell me thier is a way i could report you for this.... like any way... at all??? lol!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4065762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted May 31, 2015 Author Share Posted May 31, 2015 Report for what. Tasty analogies? :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4065775 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeStinyFiSh Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Then why can't I use the Holy Requisition Formation as my necessary Battle Congregation for a War Convocation? The Formation is 1 Dominus and 2 Breachers (1 HQ and 2 Troops). The Battle Congregation Detachment needs 1 HQ and 2 Troops as well. Who says the Battle Congregation is necessary to field a CM army ? Please read the rules. As long as every arme is part of exactly one detachment or formation your army is battleforged. Your army could also consist of 2 Holy Requisition formations, 1 Cohort Cybernetica formation and 1 Sicarian Killclade and you are battleforged without any "detachment" (Quote from Rulebook: "Formations are a special type of Detachment"). To make confusion perfect: You could also add a Deamonkin Slaughter Cult detachment and a Combined Arms Detachment Tyranids and still be Battleforged (will be hard to explain the fluff though ) Back to topic: Do you think the Cognis Flamers on the Destroyers or the Hydraulic Claws on the Breachers are of any use ? At the moment I think the flamers are nice, but you want to keep the Destroyers out of flamer range if possible. So I would only take a few (maybe 1 for every 4 Destroyers) for Overwatch. Thy Hydraulic Claw makes no sense for me at all. Arc Claw is already S6 Haywire, so pretty good against vehicles and T4 or less infantry. Hydraulic Claw gives just advantage for fighting T5 or hire, but with just 1 attack WS3 it just seems way to expensive. Or am I missing something ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4065794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Ommadon Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 A Battle Congregation is necessary for a War Convocation, which is what we were talking about. To me the Cognis Flamers are more just to make your enemy think twice about charging the Destroyers. As for the Hydraulic Claw I'm not so sold on it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4065813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 A Battle Congregation is necessary for a War Convocation, which is what we were talking about. The call it a Battle Congregation be cause it doesn't use the same rules as the Big Rule books Combined Armed detachment, which by convince have the same requirements (1 HQ and 2 TROOPS) but have different detachment special rules. Furthermore the Battle Congregation is a detachment while the Holy Requisition is a formation. A unit selection cannot be a part of both, unless stated otherwise. What you want to do, is to take the special rules form the Holy Requisition and move it to the Battle congregation (because you only intend to use 1 HQ and 2-3 troops). You can move special rules... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4065878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Amarel Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Let's try and keep this on the subject of Breachers / Destroyers. AdMech Specific Formations and Detachments can be discussed in their own post in this Forum, while the more general rules about them and how they work should be taken to either the Official Rules forum or Amicus Aedes (dependant on whether the issue is rules-specific or a more open topic). Thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4065907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
N1SB Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Guys, so I've been really following the Cult Mechanicus discussion, been thinking about this subject. Here's my current thinking: I want to go for Kataphron spam, + some Skitarii Vanguard + some Space Marine allies. To give you a rough breakdown, here's what I'm thinking of going for. It'll be a ratio of: x number of 3 Kataphron Breachers, Heavy Arc Rifles + Arc Claws x number of 3 Kataphron Destroyers, Graviton Cannons + Phosphor Blaster x number of 3 Kataphron Destroyers, Plasma Culverins + Phosphor Blaster roughly x number of 10 Skitarii Vanguards, Data-Ether + Omnispex roughly x number of 10 Iron Hands Tactical Marines w/ Rhinos, some upgrades depending on new Codex Edit - will include relevant HQs for CAD *Note: where x is like a number, so it'll roughly be a 1:1:1:1:1 ratio of each unit type --- Essentially, it's like a bunch of Kataphron Squads reinforced with some Allies, just to add more flexibility I think. I'll be taking these in Combined Arms Detachments, all troops except unfortunately the Skitarii. The local meta is a bunch of MSU and IG tanks and some hordes and Tau, but few Eldar. I'm posting this idea for your comments before I place an order for these models, thanks in advance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4066638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scurvydog Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Many might disagree, but I don't feel tactical marines bring anything to a cult/skitarii army. Without going for for any formations in the cult book, or at least enough cult units to benefit grom canticles I don't really see the plan here with the marines. Aside from 2 units of skitarii troops nothing here can be fielded by itself, so depends on HQ's. Need a dominus and a sm hq to field these units at least. With the dominus you will at least get tier 2 canticles, which is a big deal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4066722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted June 1, 2015 Author Share Posted June 1, 2015 Many might disagree, but I don't feel tactical marines bring anything to a cult/skitarii army. Without going for for any formations in the cult book, or at least enough cult units to benefit grom canticles I don't really see the plan here with the marines. Aside from 2 units of skitarii troops nothing here can be fielded by itself, so depends on HQ's. Need a dominus and a sm hq to field these units at least. With the dominus you will at least get tier 2 canticles, which is a big deal. Frankly, I do not think that Tactical Marines bring anything to any army in their current incarnation, except maybe more boots for SM armies. Skits have cheaper and better boots though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4066731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 That may be the biggest issue for units like Kataphrons: Skitarii (Vanguard in particular) are just so good for their cost. I'm not saying Kataphrons are bad, as they certainly boast great firepower and their durability is far in excess of what Skitarii bring. I feel that a good balance between the two will be the way to go, in the long run. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4066926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Ommadon Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 I just can't decide how to equip my Breachers. I'm playing a War Convocation so point costs of upgrades don't matter (there is no cost to upgrade the main weapons anyway), so are the Heavy Arc Rifles better than the Torsion Cannons? Since points don't matter would it be worth it to give them squad all Hydraulic Claws? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4066997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted June 1, 2015 Author Share Posted June 1, 2015 You do not lose anything by taking the Claws. I prefer Arc Rifles on Breachers. More reliable and universally applicable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4067004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Ommadon Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 I will model these 3 with H Claws and Arc Rifles then. Is the Torsion Cannon ever worth taking? I'm guessing maybe if you took a full squad? It's that 1 shot with BS3 that gets me (I know Canticles can help but not with my rolling). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4067020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted June 1, 2015 Author Share Posted June 1, 2015 I will model these 3 with H Claws and Arc Rifles then. Is the Torsion Cannon ever worth taking? I'm guessing maybe if you took a full squad? It's that 1 shot with BS3 that gets me (I know Canticles can help but not with my rolling). Torsion is decent when you have the Tank-Hunter Skull Relic because they can pull double duty killing tanks and MC. However, it depends on dice rolls. Arc is simply more reliable, universally applicable and dependent on combos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4067023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnusthetraitor Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Would you take the Hydraulic Claws on Breachers if you weren't running the free upgrade formation? I have a set of Kataphron awaiting assembly and I have analysis paralysis. Leaning towards Grav Destroyers but the Breachers are calling to me... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4067035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted June 1, 2015 Author Share Posted June 1, 2015 Would you take the Hydraulic Claws on Breachers if you weren't running the free upgrade formation? I have a set of Kataphron awaiting assembly and I have analysis paralysis. Leaning towards Grav Destroyers but the Breachers are calling to me... I would not. They are a cheap annoying unit. S6 Haywire melee is enough to engage most targets they can handle, like combat squad Tacticals or Guardsmen. Haywire is good enough to kill transports in melee. S10 would be relevant against T5 stuff, but that is usually faster than I3 anyway and thus will be killed. I would not invest any points, unless it is free, into an annoying support and suicide unit like 3 Breachers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307491-kataphron-breachersdestroyers/page/7/#findComment-4067040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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