Kataphron Breachers/Destroyers

[nziv]

Honestly Breachers just seem pretty bad

Their shooting is lackluster, and they are not good in melee. Feels like GW, decided that powerfists were too vanilla so gave them overly complicated weapons which are inferior. They will be unable to melee anything with a reasonable armor save.

 

I don't have the rules in front of me but assume a squad of 3 is charging marines

3 models X 3 Attacks WS4= 4.5 hits. become 3.75 wounds. After saves this is 1.25 wounds.

 

--correction to above just looked up rules

3 models X 2 Attacks WS3= 3 hits. become 2.5 wounds. After saves this is .833 wounds.

 

In other words, the big guys with the giant claw, should not, I repeat should not get into melee. They will kill a marine they get the charge and don't lose anyone to overwatch.. Not a good use of 150 points.

 

As for hydraulic claw, seems like a downgrade to me. S7 is fine and good, but not much better than S6 and no AP is a major problem, oh yeah it's also unwieldly. Paying 10 points for this seems downright silly, especially when the standard 10pt specialist melee weapon is a chainfist.

 

These guys do ok against vehicles but generic troupes with melta bombs would probably do better.

 

I hope I'm missing something but looks like 1/2 the troupe choices for Mechanicus is terrible.

 

Am I missing something?

[Frater Cornelius]

You can not use a Melta Bomb against Breachers. They are neither a Vehicle nor a MC. I like them. They might not be as destructive as Destroyers, but they can still be decent in a few other areas.

[DeStinyFiSh]

I have not seen the models yet... can't you use magnets to swap weapons easily ?

I think the heavy Arc is better then the Torsion, but the Torsion looks like more fun. Will be great to kick out 3 wounds on my brothers Blood Thirster, so I will field at least one squat, more likely 2 (the more the better, right )

WRT the Claws I agree with Immersturm. Hydraulic Claws are just better against T5+, but when you are fighting such tough units in close combat the Kataphrons are screwed most likely anyway . WS 3, Ini 3 and just 1 attack is nothing you want to get into a fist fight. And against vehicles the Arc Claws will do the job as well without paying 10p extra.

[nziv]

You can not use a Melta Bomb against Breachers. They are neither a Vehicle nor a MC. I like them. They might not be as destructive as Destroyers, but they can still be decent in a few other areas.

Understood about the Melta Bombs, was thinking of the use as tank busters, where regular melee troops with melta bomba probably do better.

 

What is the use case you see these guys doing well? 

I see the destructors being good at killing marines and soft vehicles. Expensive but OK at their job.

I just can't wrap my head around what the Breachers' job is.

[Frater Cornelius]

Breachers kill tank at long range better than Destroyers or Vanguard without drop pods. That is why I use them. With T5 and 3+ they can also bind units like Tactical Marines or Guardsman Veterans in melee for a while, taking them out of the equation. The weaker weapon and better save means they will be unmolested for longer than more Grav Destroyers, who will be prioritized above all. Being relatively low profile, they can annoy the opponent. It is one of those cases where you want to kill them but you can not justify dedicating a whole unit to them when there are bigger threats on the board.

[DeStinyFiSh]

 

You can not use a Melta Bomb against Breachers. They are neither a Vehicle nor a MC. I like them. They might not be as destructive as Destroyers, but they can still be decent in a few other areas.

Understood about the Melta Bombs, was thinking of the use as tank busters, where regular melee troops with melta bomba probably do better.

 

What is the use case you see these guys doing well? 

I see the destructors being good at killing marines and soft vehicles. Expensive but OK at their job.

I just can't wrap my head around what the Breachers' job is.

 

 

They are your best option in popping vehicles I would say.

Also the are realy tough. T5, 2 wounds and a 3+ save... stick a Tech Priest in the squat to repair and tank AP3 shots and they are a real pain for the opponent to get rid of.

 

But what I see them used most for is the Holy Requisition formation. CM is realy realy slow, so this formation is in my oppinion the best chance to grab an objective on the other half of the table. Plus you can wreck a few vehicles and MCs while doing so.

[ronin_cse]

I was of the opinion that the breachers weren't all that great either, until I realized that you really only want to compare the heavy weapons to each other. Granted breachers probably shouldn't get into combat most of the time so their CC weapon will be wasted much of the time, but that is the case with the extra weapon on the destroyers as well. The phosphor blaster just doesn't want to shoot at the same targets as the big weapon, and most of the time the flamer will be out of range so really the second weapon on the breachers will be wasted most of the time too.

 

Comparing the Arc Rifle/Torsion Cannon to the Grav Cannon/Plasma Culverin is much more favorable and makes each model's role much clearer. Then add in the better armor save on the breachers and I think they are much closer in balance.

 

IMO the breachers are there for anti-vehicle/MC duty and the destroyers are anti-infantry/MC. Arc Rifle for straight AV, Torsion cannon to be able to threaten MCs as well with a small AV loss. Grav Cannon for MCs and elite infantry, Culverins for elite infantry and hordes.

[mmimzie]

So thier are 3 ways to bring cult:

 

Mono cult which is alittle bet of everything to get canticles and have two turns of +2 cover, and 1 turn of reroll all shooting to obiterate the enemy. Every unit is needed here. Breachers bring arc here

 

Cohort+whatever

 

and Holy req; in which case you want one unit of torsions at 4 models worth, a unit of 3 breachers with arc, and 3 torsions. Domi with skull. The 4 torsions pair with the skull to either take out MC or Tanks. the 3 torsions and the arc team up to pop tanks.

[Marshal Ommadon]

What about a War Convocation?

 

So I may try the Torsion Cannons again.  This time I will have a squad of 4 and my Dominus will have the Scryer relic.  I'm hoping if I face my buddy's T-Cav/White Scars/Knight list again that either Canticles and/or the Scryer relic will help them perform much better.

 

I'd still put the Dominus in the Grav-Destroyer squad (up to a 4 man now too) though.  I think?

[DeStinyFiSh]

...

 

and Holy req; in which case you want one unit of torsions at 4 models worth, a unit of 3 breachers with arc, and 3 torsions. Domi with skull. The 4 torsions pair with the skull to either take out MC or Tanks. the 3 torsions and the arc team up to pop tanks.

 

Haven't got the rulebook yet, so sorry about that question:

 

When you shock with the Holy Requisition, can they get the bonus of the Canticles the turn they arrive ?

[Frater Cornelius]

Wording says that all units with the Canticles of the Omnissiah get that certain bonus. All technically means your entire list, be they on the board or off the board. However, do they count towards the count of units for the Canticles? That is a tricky question. Both reserves and Canticles happen at the start of the turn. Hard to say to be fair.

[DeStinyFiSh]

Another thing that came to my mind:

 

Why is the unit size up to 12 Kataphrons ?

I think 6 are already overkill most of the time, 4 sounds like a good number to me.

Also because of the Canticles MSU seems to be more beneficial.

 

Do you agree or can you see any reason to field some maxed out squats ?

[Scurvydog]

The only reason I can see for a larger squad would be for a unit the dominus joins, otherwise there is no real reason, aside from maybe having 5, so the loss of 1 does not trigger a morale check? :-/

 

In general I would put the dominus to tank for plasma destroyers, some are bound to get hot as well, so here the IWND relic could cover more if a big unit is taken. It becomes a massive bullseye target though...

[Frater Cornelius]

I want to run 5 Grav at most. Rest gets unwieldy and harder to position to that Dominus takes the shots. 30 Grav shots, even with BS3 is enough for most things.

[DeStinyFiSh]

I finally have got the codex, and there is one thing about the Destroyers I noticed:

In the Fluff text, it says their main weapon is either the plasma culverin, grav canon OR a heavy phosphor blaster.

When I read this, I just had to think that in the past a lot of people had the feeling the Kataphrons feel more like an Elite slot rather than a Troop choice, and now with this difference between fluff and rules I rely think GW had no idea what to do with them and just had to print something...

Not that this is realy important now, it just came to my mind

[Terminus]

If you are bringing Skitarii and Drop Pods, could the Dominus join a squad inside the pod, thus deep striking the pod along with the formation, and dropping without scatter?

[Brother Amarel]

 

 

I will model these 3 with H Claws and Arc Rifles then. Is the Torsion Cannon ever worth taking? I'm guessing maybe if you took a full squad? It's that 1 shot with BS3 that gets me (I know Canticles can help but not with my rolling).

Torsion is decent when you have the Tank-Hunter Skull Relic because they can pull double duty killing tanks and MC. However, it depends on dice rolls. Arc is simply more reliable, universally applicable and dependent on combos.

Although it is worth noting that we can get Haywire in a high number of other places, whereas the Torsion effect is unique here.

[Targetlock]

quite like the breachers for the firepower more than the melee capability, torsion cannons look like fun :) 

on destroyers i like the grav cannons, culverins are cool but don't like the unreliability unless its in the formation which im building my way towards.

 

Anyone else find it odd that mentioned several times in the background, kataphrons can have heavy phosphor blasters but there is no rule option.

[munocat]

quite like the breachers for the firepower more than the melee capability, torsion cannons look like fun :) 

on destroyers i like the grav cannons, culverins are cool but don't like the unreliability unless its in the formation which im building my way towards.

 

Anyone else find it odd that mentioned several times in the background, kataphrons can have heavy phosphor blasters but there is no rule option.

The GW Forgeworld is short of phosphor blasters, with the high level of other units require them. Seeing that kataphrons are lower on the needs table, the adaptus of GW deemed it important to withhold the phosphor for other units. With the endless war, and the high demand for weapons, the kataphrons will have to take other weapons.

[MaulerUK]

Then why can't I use the Holy Requisition Formation as my necessary Battle Congregation for a War Convocation? The Formation is 1 Dominus and 2 Breachers (1 HQ and 2 Troops). The Battle Congregation Detachment needs 1 HQ and 2 Troops as well.

Does this help at all?

Do you think the Cognis Flamers on the Destroyers or the Hydraulic Claws on the Breachers are of any use ?

At the moment I think the flamers are nice, but you want to keep the Destroyers out of flamer range if possible. So I would only take a few (maybe 1 for every 4 Destroyers) for Overwatch.

Thy Hydraulic Claw makes no sense for me at all. Arc Claw is already S6 Haywire, so pretty good against vehicles and T4 or less infantry. Hydraulic Claw gives just advantage for fighting T5 or hire, but with just 1 attack WS3 it just seems way to expensive. Or am I missing something ?

The way I see each unit is that the Breachers are close support AT/demolitions and the Destroyers are better vs heavy infantry/Elites & MCs. Long range is the comfort zone of both with secondary weapons as a contingency for when hostiles get too close.

Breachers are the go-to anti-armour unit for the Cult Mech when armed with Haywire, but have Torsion & Hydraulic Claws as backup, leaning more towards MC killing than armour but there is some overlap between the two. Once they've destroyed their vehicular targets they're designed to provide close support for friendlies with ranged fire and their lil' claws help them actually do something in assault vs vehicles & MCs when they (or a local friendly unit) are up against the wall and need the scales tipped.

Destroyers are far more simple in that they just need to be parked up somewhere with a good LOS to most of the field, preferably in cover, and then can dakka anything in range.

Cognis Flamers are an assault deterrent, and a pretty nifty one too. If I had more Destroyers I bring 2 flamers for every 5 Destroyers but with a single unit of Breachers & Destroyers I just tend to run a single flamer for the utility. So far I don't think that my rapid-fire Phosphor Blasters have really killed much...yet. They're also much better at close range than Blasters vs targets in cover.

The Claws...beh. Neither is amazing and they operate at polar opposites of the spectrum: thanks to the crappy attacks of the Breachers the Hydraulic Claw is better vs MCs & TEq but thanks to the crappy Unwieldy (not that I3 is amazing anyway) tag the Breachers will, especially if they're facing assault-specced TEq or MCs, wind up dead before or at the same time of using it. However, they do have their (niche) uses...

Arc Claws: At S6 & AP5 Haywire this has some flexibility against both GEq, Tau, Orks & vehicles. The main deterrent (Heavy Arc Rifles aside) against charges from newly-buffed Dreadnoughts and other walker types is that the Breachers will hit before or at the same time as any walker that's not based on a Dreadnought chassis, which also makes them lethal to immobilised vehicles if they can charge, or against a walker already in combat where Arc Rifles can't be used. Very useful vs hostile walkers tarpitted by Priests/Skitarii which can't overwatch the Breachers and will be hurt by their Haywire melee. Seems situational, but Dreadnoughts may be on the rise thanks to the new Marine codex giving them 4A and units of 1-3 Dreads now being an option. If you've got Skitarii allies it's also worth using Breachers in tandem with Conversion Field equipped Vanguard/Infiltrators.

Hydraulic Claw: Even more situational than the default Arc Claw, the Hydraulic Claw does have a few uses. As Breachers only have one attack unless charging the only drawback to getting an S10 AP2 mega-pinch in is the drop from I3 to I1 and the lack of Haywire. Small blessing, but important vs MCs that it will wound on a 2+ without granting a save, other funky T5 units which also probably won't get a save and reducing TEq units to their invuln saves...if the Breachers are alive at the I1 step to hit.

Looking at either Claw alone makes them look pretty naff but the Cult Mechanicus units aren't designed to be used in isolation; they're designed from the ground up to be used with Canticles & other units both CM and Skitarii. The Remorseless Fist's melee To Hit re-roll goes a long way to making the Hydraulic's single attacks actually connect. Combine this with a Skitarii Vanguard Alpha with a CField and that's pretty nasty. Granted, that's a lot of moving parts, but suddenly thanks to the Vanguard's rad aura those T5 MCs are about to get instakilled by a really nasty Kataphron neck pinch. Unfortunately none of the other Canticles really benefit a Kataphron in melee; the model count is too low to get any significant benefit from the Electromancer's Litany and their strength is already high enough either way to kill their ideal targets to make Machine-Might stellar (but then both are designed for Eletro-Priests anyway).

However, adding a Priest Dominus to a unit of Breachers is a force multiplier, both in protecting them from assault due to better anti-infantry weaponry being present, and for now having a resilient HQ model to take hits while the Breachers can get their claws in...

The only reason I can see for a larger squad would be for a unit the dominus joins, otherwise there is no real reason, aside from maybe having 5, so the loss of 1 does not trigger a morale check? :-/

In general I would put the dominus to tank for plasma destroyers, some are bound to get hot as well, so here the IWND relic could cover more if a big unit is taken. It becomes a massive bullseye target though...

A larger squad gives the option of having a higher break threshold as you say Scurvy, but also allows for more dakka in bigger games without giving away more KPs for multiple smaller units. It's less units counting towards the Canticles total though. :(

I finally have got the codex, and there is one thing about the Destroyers I noticed:

In the Fluff text, it says their main weapon is either the plasma culverin, grav canon OR a heavy phosphor blaster.

When I read this, I just had to think that in the past a lot of people had the feeling the Kataphrons feel more like an Elite slot rather than a Troop choice, and now with this difference between fluff and rules I rely think GW had no idea what to do with them and just had to print something...

Not that this is realy important now, it just came to my mind

Aye man, I saw that! A bit of a typo there, lol. :(

[N1SB]

When I read this, I just had to think that in the past a lot of people had the feeling the Kataphrons feel more like an Elite slot rather than a Troop choice, and now with this difference between fluff and rules I rely think GW had no idea what to do with them and just had to print something...

Not that this is realy important now, it just came to my mind

Just to echo that sentiment, the way I've been explaining the Kataphron units to my friends is "they're like Heavy Support...except they accidentally got put in the Troops slots".

At 1st it was a gross over-simplification, then it was a joke, then I realised it really kinda true. Also, thanks Mauler, for your insights. I'm looking at your pointers as I build my army.

[Vel'Cona]

I think we can all agree that GW vectoring Breachers as a "melee" unit was a misstep.  They're very much a shooting unit in the same vein as their Destroyer brethren, but with less guns in favor of more focus and better durability.  That said, what do the hard numbers say about Destroyers vs. Breachers shooting at armor?  Let's take a look:

 

3 Destroyers w/ Heavy Grav Cannons @ 30" Range vs. ANY armor (Grav deals 1 HP and Immobilizes on a 6),

4 shot ea. = 12 shots, 6 hits standard, 7/8/9 hits under 1st/2nd/3rd tier Accuracy Canticle (can't remember the name lulz),

6/7/8 hits = 1 HP and Immobilize, 9 hits = 3 HP and Immobilize (you get an extra HP loss per Immobilize result past the first).

 

3 Breachers w/ Heavy Arc Rifles @ 36" Range vs. ANY armor (glances on 2-5, penetrates on 6),

2 shots ea. = 6 shots, 3 hits standard, 4/4/5 hits under 1st/2nd/3rd tier Accuracy Canticle,

3 hits = 2 HP and equal possibility of Penetrating Hit or nothing, 4 hits = 3 HP and better possibility of Penetrating Hit, 5 hits = 3 HP and best possibility of Penetrating Hit.

 

TL:DR, Breachers are definitely better at killing tanks at long range, boasting better threat range and more damage without Canticle Help.  Under the best Accuracy Canticle tier, the results somewhat even out.  That said, Destroyers are FAR better for engaging anything other than armor, have a second gun, and have even more potential at 15" or less (where they get 6 shots).

[MaulerUK]

I think we can all agree that GW vectoring Breachers as a "melee" unit was a misstep.  They're very much a shooting unit in the same vein as their Destroyer brethren, but with less guns in favor of more focus and better durability.  That said, what do the hard numbers say about Destroyers vs. Breachers shooting at armor?  Let's take a look:

 

3 Destroyers w/ Heavy Grav Cannons @ 30" Range vs. ANY armor (Grav deals 1 HP and Immobilizes on a 6),

4 shot ea. = 12 shots, 6 hits standard, 7/8/9 hits under 1st/2nd/3rd tier Accuracy Canticle (can't remember the name lulz),

6/7/8 hits = 1 HP and Immobilize, 9 hits = 3 HP and Immobilize (you get an extra HP loss per Immobilize result past the first).

 

3 Breachers w/ Heavy Arc Rifles @ 36" Range vs. ANY armor (glances on 2-5, penetrates on 6),

2 shots ea. = 6 shots, 3 hits standard, 4/4/5 hits under 1st/2nd/3rd tier Accuracy Canticle,

3 hits = 2 HP and equal possibility of Penetrating Hit or nothing, 4 hits = 3 HP and better possibility of Penetrating Hit, 5 hits = 3 HP and best possibility of Penetrating Hit.

 

TL:DR, Breachers are definitely better at killing tanks at long range, boasting better threat range and more damage without Canticle Help.  Under the best Accuracy Canticle tier, the results somewhat even out.  That said, Destroyers are FAR better for engaging anything other than armor, have a second gun, and have even more potential at 15" or less (where they get 6 shots).

Aye, the Claws on the Breachers are just there for situational utility and to distance them from Destroyer territory. But Kataphron units have the Heavy Battle Servitors special rule so they count has having remained stationary when firing Salvo weapons...they always fire the full 6 shots.

[Terminus]

I think we can all agree that GW vectoring Breachers as a "melee" unit was a misstep.  They're very much a shooting unit in the same vein as their Destroyer brethren, but with less guns in favor of more focus and better durability.  That said, what do the hard numbers say about Destroyers vs. Breachers shooting at armor?  Let's take a look:

 

3 Destroyers w/ Heavy Grav Cannons @ 30" Range vs. ANY armor (Grav deals 1 HP and Immobilizes on a 6),

4 shot ea. = 12 shots, 6 hits standard, 7/8/9 hits under 1st/2nd/3rd tier Accuracy Canticle (can't remember the name lulz),

6/7/8 hits = 1 HP and Immobilize, 9 hits = 3 HP and Immobilize (you get an extra HP loss per Immobilize result past the first).

 

3 Breachers w/ Heavy Arc Rifles @ 36" Range vs. ANY armor (glances on 2-5, penetrates on 6),

2 shots ea. = 6 shots, 3 hits standard, 4/4/5 hits under 1st/2nd/3rd tier Accuracy Canticle,

3 hits = 2 HP and equal possibility of Penetrating Hit or nothing, 4 hits = 3 HP and better possibility of Penetrating Hit, 5 hits = 3 HP and best possibility of Penetrating Hit.

 

TL:DR, Breachers are definitely better at killing tanks at long range, boasting better threat range and more damage without Canticle Help.  Under the best Accuracy Canticle tier, the results somewhat even out.  That said, Destroyers are FAR better for engaging anything other than armor, have a second gun, and have even more potential at 15" or less (where they get 6 shots).

 

The Destroyers fire 18 shots from the unit, so the 3HP and immobilize result you calculated should be applied when they don't have any canticle buffs in place. Basically, both units will on average dice kill the ever-living crap out of a typical vehicle regardless of its armor value. However, that's pretty much the only target the heavy arc rifles have a strong use for, so the heavy grav cannon destroyers are a lot more flexible in this regard.

 

Skitarii also offer an alternative. If you have a way to deliver them, a full unit of vanguard with three arc rifles is 145 points, will do the same damage against vehicles within 12", and have a lot more utility against other units. 

 

I wish the Holy Requisitioner formation didn't specify Breachers. I plan to build a Breacher unit eventually just for fun and because they look neat. Torsion cannons could be interesting because I see quite a few monstrous creatures, but the thought of a second such unit or a unit with arc rifles doesn't really thrill me. The torsion cannons are ironically not great against vehicle targets, since many of the Lords of War have 13 or 14 armor, and you only get the D3 on a penetrating hit. So in essence it's 150 points for 3 BS3 multi-meltas without the melta rule.

[mmimzie]

yeah breachers are quite the disappointment i';d ahve to say. destroyers all day, and i'd say both types are better than a breaches for most things.

 

Destroyers i will say are as squishy if not more so than a unit of vanguards, but the ability to move and shoot the grav can be quite great for getting in range for thier grave or shooting a unit trying to hide.

 

Also vel'cona they always shoot 6 shots to my understand as per their special rules.

 

Edit: oh and for cult's best melee unit. Kastelans with phos blaster hands down. Ap 2 attacks, they more or less have fleet due to luminegin, they have move through cover so basicly have assault nades and ignore movement reduction from terrain, and in cohort they get even sillier.