[HH1.0] 30k Ultramarines tactics

[GreyCrow]

Interesting point, but I'm wondering whether it's better to shoot the good stuff first, then mop up with Tacticals. Example : Plasma Support squad wounding on 2s, to mark and still dent the enemy (because you won't benefit as much from rerolls on 5 shots than on 20 for instance).

 

You make an excellent case about blasts and templates. Fire them first indeed, as well as snap shots because they won't benefit from Interlocking Tactics !

 

Regarding the large number of squads, I was thinking that the more units you get, the more squads you can get marked. But obviously, it's probably secondary to having a large number of models on the table.

So, at least a 1:1 ratio of regular squads to "support" squads would probably work well, so we can get as much marking going on.

 

Contemptors do look like a good marking unit though.

 

EDIT : Pride of the Legion ROW seem very difficult to get to work efficiently with Ultramarines rules. Unless the Veteran/Terminator squads themselves are used to mark high dakka support units rather than the other way around, I feel that there will be a really lack of volume of bodies to be truly effective.

 

How would you guys approach a POTL Ultramarines ?

Edited June 6, 2015 by GreyCrow

[1ncarnadine]

Interesting point, but I'm wondering whether it's better to shoot the good stuff first, then mop up with Tacticals. Example : Plasma Support squad wounding on 2s, to mark and still dent the enemy (because you won't benefit as much from rerolls on 5 shots than on 20 for instance).

 

You make an excellent case about blasts and templates. Fire them first indeed, as well as snap shots because they won't benefit from Interlocking Tactics !

 

Regarding the large number of squads, I was thinking that the more units you get, the more squads you can get marked. But obviously, it's probably secondary to having a large number of models on the table.

So, at least a 1:1 ratio of regular squads to "support" squads would probably work well, so we can get as much marking going on.

 

Contemptors do look like a good marking unit though.

 

EDIT : Pride of the Legion ROW seem very difficult to get to work efficiently with Ultramarines rules. Unless the Veteran/Terminator squads themselves are used to mark high dakka support units rather than the other way around, I feel that there will be a really lack of volume of bodies to be truly effective.

 

How would you guys approach a POTL Ultramarines ?

 

I would probably just not use PotL at all. You can't get Fulmentarus as troops with PotL due to them being a Heavy Support rather than Elites choice, for one. The Suzerain and Locutarus offer pretty solid assault choices with 2+ saves that are more mobile anyway, and you don't need PotL to make Suzerain troops, you need Guilliman.

 

Honestly I'm having a hard time putting lists together for the UM that use a RoW, aside from really silly Logos Lectora dreadnought lists. I'm thinking they don't really need them for the most part. Maaaybe Angel's Wrath or Orbital Assault. Orbital Assault in particular can get you deep striking Fulmentarus, although IW still do it better with Tyrants/Perturabo. And it gives you Deathstorm as FA, if you use Monkeychunks's frag saturation idea.

[GreyCrow]

I'm with you there brother, the ROW all come with added cost that detract from the bodycount needed by the Ultras, so it's quite hard to make one work indeed. Except obviously the Logos Lectora with Dreads like you mention but it's a bit boring to field imho.

 

I tried to make POTL lists with Ultras and the struggle really was to throw in enough bodies as Troops to benefit from the rules. Then I thought about the opposite : what if volume of fire didn't come from the Troops that will fire at something that was marked by support units, but what if the troops marked for high rate of fire support units with relatively decent quality shots.

 

Or, how about squads of Veterans with Plasmaguns or melta/ML supported by 3 Quad Heavy Bolter Rapiers, Volkite Caliver support squads, 2 Thudd Guns ? Basically the Vets mark squads to give rerolls to the other units that will likely wound on 2+ or 3+ rerolling ones.

Edited June 7, 2015 by GreyCrow

[Monkeychunks]

We've just had a similar fight over on Dakka regarding Ultramarines. From a numbers point-of-view, the quality of the shot makes absolutely no difference as to whether you want to fire first or last. It is always an increase of ~17% in overall damage, whether you are wounding on 6's or on 2's. This is because you are rerolling 1's, not failures, so it's always the same magnitude of rerolls.

It doesn't matter on the quality of shots to be marked, only on the overall lethality of the squad. So if a Plasma Squad can expect to nail 3 guys, but a horde of Tacticals can get 4, you'd want to start with the Plasma because the Tacticals will have a higher output and so justify the rerolls more.

 

Units like Rhinos or Drop Pods are great for marking a target if you're playing those types of lists, but they come at the cost of Tactical swarms and may end up doing more harm than good. It's why I am such a strong proponent of Deathstorms, because there really is no opportunity cost beyond the price of the model.

[GreyCrow]

We've just had a similar fight over on Dakka regarding Ultramarines. From a numbers point-of-view, the quality of the shot makes absolutely no difference as to whether you want to fire first or last. It is always an increase of ~17% in overall damage, whether you are wounding on 6's or on 2's. This is because you are rerolling 1's, not failures, so it's always the same magnitude of rerolls.

It doesn't matter on the quality of shots to be marked, only on the overall lethality of the squad. So if a Plasma Squad can expect to nail 3 guys, but a horde of Tacticals can get 4, you'd want to start with the Plasma because the Tacticals will have a higher output and so justify the rerolls more.

 

Units like Rhinos or Drop Pods are great for marking a target if you're playing those types of lists, but they come at the cost of Tactical swarms and may end up doing more harm than good. It's why I am such a strong proponent of Deathstorms, because there really is no opportunity cost beyond the price of the model.

 

Great points man ! Which is why I thought that in POTL lists you'd start off with the Plasmas from Vets then unload an ungodly amount of shots from support squads, heavy support squands and Rapier Batteries. Like you said, weight of dice benefits the Ultra's LA rules more than quality of shots.

[Ishagu]

Grey Crow, I do honestly think that Guilliman is a solid option in a 2k list or higher.

 

If you're looking for a highly elite Ultra list you could run Invectarus Suzerains and Terminators as your troops provided you run the Primarch. He could also really bolster an army if you plan for him in advance - Eg: 3 Sicaran Tanks with Tank Hunter, Heavy Weapons teams all with interceptor...

 

The Ultramarines unique rite of war is very ineffective in my opinion - it's basically a slow moving infantry list which is poor in the objective game and susceptible to ap3 blast and template weapons which are common in both 30k and 40k games.

 

I've finalised my 2k and 2.5k lists and would be willing to share and exchange ideas.

 

The big winners from the Ultramarines unique units are the Suzerains, the Locutarus (only marginally more expensive than standard assault marines when taken in a full squad and far, far superior) and the Primarch himself.

 

I do like Veteran Tactical Marines, they are great in cc and can be fantastic at shooting simply by giving them the Sniper rule (rending bolters ftw) but they are also pricey - not uncommon for a unit and transport to approach 300pts in price!

Edited June 7, 2015 by Ishagu

[GreyCrow]

Funny you would put it that way Ishagu, I was on the list drawing board today and I did plan to field both the Primarch + Terminator squads as Troops for 2k list (running the Logos Lectora instead of POTL due to his ability to make Terminator Troops).

 

Unfortunately, I didn't think it'd be that viable because the Termis were on foot and their shooting is super poor so I scratched it, but I'll share the list building idea. Basically, because the Terminators have such a bad shooting, they would be the guys who would "mark" squads for support elements with high dakka to shoot. In addition, I would have ran a Contemptor to draw fire away from the Terminators and eventually be the one to 'mark' for all squads (shooting obviously, melee thanks to fleet).

 

Here's the list without much detail :

 

2 x 5 Cataphractii Terminators (1 with Reaper + Power Axes, 1 with Plasma Blaster + Power Fists + a chainfist)

1 x 5 Tartaros Terminators (1 Volkite Charger, 2 combi plasmas, 2 combi meltas, 3 Power Swords, 2 Power Mauls)

1 x 5 Tactical Support (5 Volkite Calivers)

3 Rapier Batteries with Quad Heavy Bolters

2 Rapier Batteries with Thudd gun

1 Contemptor with Kheres and Graviton

1 Cataphractii Praetor with combi plasma and Paragon Blade

1 MOS with Power Sword and Artificer Armour

1 Legion Champion with AA, Combat Shield, Charnabal and Serpenta

1 Spiritual Liege Himself

 

For 2k points (3 points under). The idea was to have the Tartaros and Contemptors be in the frontlines, with Cataphractii following behing. Primarch, Champion and Praetor join a Terminator Squad each, MOS goes with the support squad. The Terminators, Thudd Guns and Contemptor mark the targets, then the rest gets rerolls (counting on the 3 Quad Heavy Bolters to provide the needed dakka). Logos Lectora is used to provide anti air at BS5 if needed, mostly counter attack or run moves.

 

I was happy at first, but then it felt relatively weak (30 models on the table). Actually, I feel that there's enough melee and enough dakka, but I was a bit scared by the short range of the Rapiers which seem more defensive while this lists wants to advance.

 

Still, I do have the feeling that Logos Lectora seems better used with cheap 3 Tactical Squads as troops. Runs a core of everything from 450 to 750 points, which still gives a lot of points for support units and tougher stuff even at 1500-2000 points. The limitations in fielding such an army lies in the cost, the real life one  But even with cheap troops and lots of bodies with the Logos, you're getting amazing value from Counter Attack and BS2 Snap Shots... It lets you field a relatively aggressive army (as in advancing up the board) while letting you deal with contigencies that would stop that.

 

EDIT : Now I'm working on a list with Veterans as Troops (so purely POTL) and Suzerains as a melee unit instead.

Edited June 7, 2015 by GreyCrow

[Ishagu]

30k Terminators are much better priced and more effective, but they really don't lend themselves to advancing on foot - you'll take too many casualties on the way to assault, and won't get there till mid-late game.

 

I see you're interested in the Rapier weapons battery. You have two units, 3 Quad Bolters and Two Thudd Guns. I would swap the Quad Bolters for a second unit of 2 Thudd Guns. That will give you excellent coverage to deal with general infantry and armour.

 

If you're set on Running multiple Terminator units without transports you can consider the Orbital Assault Rite of War, but that also limits the army play style.

 

Ultramarines lend themselves to units in transports because of the Legion rules: A Tac Squad disembarks from a Rhino, the Rhino shoots at An enemy unit, and now the Tac Squad can re roll dice results of 1 to wound when shooting against the same enemy unit....

 

This is my 2k list:

 

HQ:

-Forge Lord

 

Troops:

-10 Man Tac Squad, Combi Plasma, Rhino

-10 Man Tac Squad, Combi Plasma, Rhino

-5 Invectarus Suzereins, Landraider Phobos

 

Elites:

-Rapier Weapons Battery, 2 Thudd Guns

-Rapier Weapons Battery, 2 Thudd Guns

 

Heavy Support:

-Sicaran Tank, Lascannon Sponsons

-Vindicator Laser Destroyer

-Vindicator Laser Destroyer

 

Lord of War:

-Primarch Roboute Guilliman

 

 

At 2.5k I add a Storm Eagle with Lascannons and Melta, and a 5 man unit of Cataphractii Terminators armed with Volkite Chargers, 3 Power Fists and a Chain Fist.

Running a Sicaran Tank is mandatory imo, as Guilliman helped to design it in the lore!

 

 

If you run Veterans as troops, it's best that they advance alongside your mêlée units.

 

For 315 points I would potentially invest in 10 Locutarus Storm Marines with 3 Flamer pistols. That would be a precision deepstrike unit with 6 str3 templates and 14 bolt pistol shots on the turn they arrive, all armed with Artifacer Armour and Power Weapons, these are in my opinion some of the very best jump pack infantry in the 30k rules.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Ishagu

[GreyCrow]

Well, the idea of the Quad Heavy Bolters was to have lots and lots of hits, rerolling 1s on 3+ to wound while the Thudd Guns don't get the rerolls

 

Yeah, Terminators on foot are no good because of a lack of shooting. Funnily enough, 40k Marines Terminators lend themselves better to footslogging due to double the shooting at 12+"

 

What ROW are you running for your list ? Logos or no ROW at all ?

 

Out of curiosity, do you run our Spiritual Liege on his own or with the Suzerains ? Because if he isn't on a challenge, he'll still be wounded at majority toughness ^^

Edited June 8, 2015 by GreyCrow

[Stofficus]

I was puttering around with the UM some more and came to a similar, but slightly different list conclusion (though I doubt I'll actually end up using an UM force at this point, but that's another matter entirely - the more I look at it, the less I like the colour scheme) 

HQ: 
Primus Medicae

 

Troops: 

2x Suzerain Squads in Phobos pattern land raiders

1x Cataphractii squad with volkite chargers and maces in a Phobos

 

Fast: 

Locutarus squad with 10 men

 

Heavy: 

 

3x Sicarans with lascannons

 

LoW: Guilliman. 

Guilliman rides with a 7 man suzerain command squad alongside the Primus Medicae, Sicarans gain Tank Hunter. Every vehicle has armoured ceramite. 

The three raiders form a shock force - the tanks can engage vehicles, the Suzerain engage enemy elite units while the Cataphractii can engage fodder units. Sicarans use their superior mobility to eliminate high-threat targets, whether they are fliers, tanks or smaller elite units which could resist the core assault force. Locutarii drop in on the enemy rear and engage fire support/lesser HQs and other targets of opportunity which would otherwise be difficult to reach. 

It's low on men, but it's mobile and absolutely lethal to whatever it targets, but could be quite vulnerable to attrition. My main point of concern however is each UM list I've come up with is quite simple mechanically - the legion lends itself to direct, uncompromising attacks or defense. The opportunities for tactical finesse offered by most other legions is lacking - they feel a lot like World Eaters in many respects, rewarding similar approaches. 

[Ishagu]

It's a great list and it will be tough to respond to in a lot of cases, however you should know that the Primus Medicae can no longer be a mandatory HQ choice... :-(

[Stofficus]

Well, shucks, well I can swap him out for a chaplain to increase the Guillistar's impact. It's not like there's a shortage of interesting Consul types. 

[Hesh Kadesh]

Not in regards to a List, but a Praevian can do pretty well with Interlocking tactics giving them the reroll to wound on flamers. And Legatine Axes are pretty naughty too with At Initiative AP2 on none-Praetor characters and on Suzerains. A Suzerain Squad with a Forge Lord giving Rad Nades in a Phobos is pretty naughty and can cut through most. They're lacking Initiative 5, but against axe armed enemy units, they can cut through without being challenge blocked (and if they do encounter something like a Phoenix Spear, they have their 5+ Save and stop the enemy getting charging bonuses). 

[Ishagu]

Not in regards to a List, but a Praevian can do pretty well with Interlocking tactics giving them the reroll to wound on flamers. And Legatine Axes are pretty naughty too with At Initiative AP2 on none-Praetor characters and on Suzerains. A Suzerain Squad with a Forge Lord giving Rad Nades in a Phobos is pretty naughty and can cut through most. They're lacking Initiative 5, but against axe armed enemy units, they can cut through without being challenge blocked (and if they do encounter something like a Phoenix Spear, they have their 5+ Save and stop the enemy getting charging bonuses).

I am running Guilliman, 5 Suzareins and a Forge Lord with Rad Grenades in a Phobos ;-)

[Hesh Kadesh]

Be careful with giving up Rowboats T6, but yeah, Suzerains are pretty nasty. Breacher Marines getting access to Power Swords on the cheap makes them actually quite a capable anti infantry unit.  And also, watch out if it's your only HQ, they can be a nice easy targets for +1VP (although a 2+ Look Out Sir and Chosen Warriors can help here too). 

 

And are the Mantles of Ultramar available for IC's or Praetors only? GF Proof Readers. The words are literally next to each other.

[Ishagu]

Why would Gulliman give up his t6?

 

Rad Grenades only affect the enemy units - I just checked the rules in the book.

[Slips]

Why would Gulliman give up his t6?

 

Rad Grenades only affect the enemy units - I just checked the rules in the book.

Majority Toughness.

[Ishagu]

Ah yes, but every Primarch will have the same issue. It's why he'll hopefully be in a challenge, and will ride in his transport to avoid shooting.

 

In truth the Suzerains are a tax (a nice tax, mind) I'm paying to get a Landraider as a dedicated transport and not give up any of my Heavy Support Slots.

[Kossaka]

Doesn't the Legion tactics explicitly exempt battle automata from benefiting from Interlocking Tactics? "No battle-automata of any kind" somewhere in there. Or because you take the previan and then the automata have the Legiones Astartes: Ultramarines they then benefit from interlocking tactics?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Nope. 

 

"Whenever a unit with the Legiones Astartes (Ultramarines) special rule makes a shooting attack against a target which has already been successfully hit in the same shooting ohase by another ultramarines unit"

 

The Praevian and his Battle Automata gain the LA(Ultra) rule, and by RAW, while only the Praevian itself would generate the ability for other units to get the rerolls, the unit can benefit from the rerolls generated by other units.

[apologist]

I was under the same impression as Kossaka – that there was an separate note explicitly restricting automata from Interlocking Tactics. I'll have to have a closer look later.

 

On a separate note, the shooting benefits of Interlocking Tactics have been discussed; how about the assault phase effects? Do we foresee this being particularly useful?

[Hesh Kadesh]

@Apologist. It's literally in the a) very next post, b) very last post in the thread.

 

In regards to combat, other than taking Suzerains, there aren't many CC bonuses available. So unless you want to take Suzerains and mix with Destroyers/Forge Lords, I'd suggest not.

[GreyCrow]

Well, I don't think Battle Automata are exempt from receiving the boost. However, they are exempt from "marking" a target :

For the purposes of this special rule, an Ultramarines unit is defined as any unit in the same detachment drawn from the Space Marine Legion Crusade Army list except Super-heavy vehicles, Flyers, Servo-automata and Battle-automata of any kind.

 

The special rules refers to an Ultramarines unit that shot or is locked in combat, giving the rerolls to wounds to units with Legiones Astartes (Ultramarines) which the Battle Automata would have with the Praevian.

[apologist]

*Reads book*

You're right – good spot! 

 

It's an outlying case, but if you do include a Praevian, the robots do essentially become Ultramarines for the purposes of the rules. Will interlocking targets prove useful on the table? The Praevian grants preferred enemy to his unit if he hits anyway, which essentially duplicates these rules, no? 

[GreyCrow]

Sounds like it would be a bit redundant yeah, with Preferred enemy trumping the LA rule :)