[HH1.0] 30k Ultramarines tactics

[Charlo]

I always had an interest in Destroyer Squads however they need an adjustment in points to be viable.

 

Forgeworld will be addressing some units in upcoming books and altering points to make them more appealing.

IMO Destroyers are fine. They can work nicely in a Rhino Rhino popping out rad missiles while being screened by bigger armour. Expensive with jump packs but you just need to keep a stronger target in your opponents eyes, like a Primarch.

[Captain Idaho]

Maybe we should make a Tactica dedicated to getting these units to work?

[Ishagu]

Yeah, a list crunching topic with a focus on different themed units and how to make them work.

 

Some generic choices work better in some Legions than others.

[Captain Idaho]

Fulmentarus Terminators with Reaper Autocannon?

[Ishagu]

A Reaper Autocannon would be my choice of weapon. A squad of 5 Terminators would fire 20 Twin Linked, str7 shots with Tank Hunter which is pretty great.

I'm not sure what cc weapons I would give them... Power Swords, Axes, Fists? Or mainly stick to the Mauls?

 

 

Just to confirm, Reaper Autocannons are Heavy 4?

 

 

**Edit** Never mind, it's Heavy 2, TL., 36" I got it mixed up with something else.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Ishagu

[Slips]

Shame about the Breachers being substandard.

Its not that theyre substandards its that they bloat up in terms of points quickly.

 

And due to that you can usually find something that does the same job more efficiently.

 

Theyre also the go-to unit in ZM.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Slipstreams

[Frostmourne]

A friend and I are revitalising our very basic 30k legions using the new Calth Box and a few units. He is obvs doing WB while i wander down a Bluer path.

 

But, i would love to use 5 Suzies, and 10 Fulmentarii lads, Decent beatstick HQ, touch of armour and some boots on the ground, like 60 boots (30 lads for you maths whizzes out there). Might not be super competative, but it will at least be a laughm and visually very impressive, i hope.

 

Any thoughts.

 

And also, as we have bagged on the RoW for so long, is there another RoW that people take as a majority?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Vigilator; Power Weapon, Melta bombs, Combat Shield = 110pts

 

5 Suzerains, Thunder Hammer = 215pts

 

Tactical Squad = 150pts

Rhino, Extra Twin-linked Bolter = 40pts

Tactical Squad = 150pts

Rhino, Extra Twin-linked Bolter = 40pts

Tactical Support Squad, 5 Additional Marines, Volkite Calivers = 225

 

Dreadclaw = 100pts

Dreadclaw = 100pts

Dreadclaw = 100pts

 

Fulmentarus Terminators, 5 Power fists, 5 Combi-Meltas = 275pts

Fulmentarus Terminators, 5 Power fists, 5 Combi-Meltas = 275pts

Deredeo, Autocannons, Aiolos Launcher = 220pts

 

Total = 2000pts

 

Fulmentarus Terminators are ridiculously expensive, but here, you are paying for a pair of Terminators who come down turn 1 within 6" (hopefully) of an enemy transport that's not Armoured Ceramited (note, if it's AV14 on any facing, it usually is), and then unload with Night Fighting Tank Hunting BS5 Melta. Remember that even melta immune, or too far melta shots glance AV12 on a 4+, and with Tank Hunters, that's a 75% chance, which out of 5 shots is pretty good odds (3.33 hull points even without penetrating).

 

The Deredeo just pops off its Sunder shots to take out light to medium vehicles or flyers, while the Rhino's tank shock units off objectives and have additional Combi-Bolters to help trigger the rerolls to wound for the Special Weapons Squad, which uses the Vigilators Scout move to ensure it has Line of Sight to vulnerable enemy units, and because 20 S6 Rerolling 1's to wound with Deflagrate (doing the whole thing again) are awesome.

[Frostmourne]

Ah iv missed you, Hesh! Thanks Brother

[shandwen]

I like the non-terminator ultra units, but find the shear cost of our termies to put me off.

My thought on ultras is to take suppoe t squads in place of the more elite shooting termies. From the Calth box I plqn on building a squad with missiles to abuse the 2+ to wound re-rolling, and to build tacs to eventually put in rhinos.

I am still undecided on plasma or melta on a tac support squad, but plasma will probably win out.

On a separate note I am building the termies to have combi-plasmas because the bits to bash that are all in the box. Points wise expensive but I might actually run it as it is monetarily cheap.

[Slips]

Vigilator; Power Weapon, Melta bombs, Combat Shield = 110pts

 

5 Suzerains, Thunder Hammer = 215pts

 

Tactical Squad = 150pts

Rhino, Extra Twin-linked Bolter = 40pts

Tactical Squad = 150pts

Rhino, Extra Twin-linked Bolter = 40pts

Tactical Support Squad, 5 Additional Marines, Volkite Calivers = 225

 

Dreadclaw = 100pts

Dreadclaw = 100pts

Dreadclaw = 100pts

 

Fulmentarus Terminators, 5 Power fists, 5 Combi-Meltas = 275pts

Fulmentarus Terminators, 5 Power fists, 5 Combi-Meltas = 275pts

Deredeo, Autocannons, Aiolos Launcher = 220pts

 

Total = 2000pts

 

Fulmentarus Terminators are ridiculously expensive, but here, you are paying for a pair of Terminators who come down turn 1 within 6" (hopefully) of an enemy transport that's not Armoured Ceramited (note, if it's AV14 on any facing, it usually is), and then unload with Night Fighting Tank Hunting BS5 Melta. Remember that even melta immune, or too far melta shots glance AV12 on a 4+, and with Tank Hunters, that's a 75% chance, which out of 5 shots is pretty good odds (3.33 hull points even without penetrating).

 

The Deredeo just pops off its Sunder shots to take out light to medium vehicles or flyers, while the Rhino's tank shock units off objectives and have additional Combi-Bolters to help trigger the rerolls to wound for the Special Weapons Squad, which uses the Vigilators Scout move to ensure it has Line of Sight to vulnerable enemy units, and because 20 S6 Rerolling 1's to wound with Deflagrate (doing the whole thing again) are awesome.

*ppsst* calivers are only 2 Shots :x Culverins are the 4 shot ones.

 

Otherwise, Solid enough list to start off with.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Slipstreams

[Dumah]

His Caliver support squad has *5 additional marines*, ergo 10 x 2 shots.

[Slips]

His Caliver support squad has *5 additional marines*, ergo 10 x 2 shots.

Thats what I get for not reading properly.

[GreyCrow]

Do you guys think it is possible to make tanks and non mechanized infantry work together well enough ?

 

After looking at the Legion's rules again and the different units, it seems that most of the good anti-tank units are themselves tank based (Sicaran Venator, Predator Squadrons with sponsoon Lascannons galore, Grav Guns on Landspeeders) with a few exceptions (Heavy Support Squads, Outride Suadrons, etc).

Due to most infantry not really benefitting much for anti tank, would a mix of tank hunters tanks, infantry killers like the Scorpius to trigger the rerolls on the footsloggers be worth it ?

 

Finally, are foot slogging Terminators something you can do in a footslogging infantry heavy force ? Obviously, they'd have to be 10 men strong and not be on the front of line, but more like behind other Troops or out of line of sight, ready to offer a close assault support. Should it be needed.

 

Cheers !

[Ishagu]

Non-mechanised infantry squads are not as capable when it comes to claiming objectives, and they are simply too exposed early on when the opponent's firepower is at it's optimum.

 

I don't entertain the idea in 30k, as unlike 40k not every unit is scoring. Because of the lack of options available to a Legion Tactical squad, to me they are clearly intended to hunt objectives and only engage other infantry.

This meshes well with Vehicles designed to deal heavy damage.

Foot-slogging Terminators are possible, but often the unit will be destroyed or heavily depleted before they reach the fight. You may as well take 5 in a Landraider for a comparable cost to a full unit of 10, but who are more likely to engage in cc.

 

On the other hand, heavy and special weapon teams on foot can work perfectly well as you won't be using those to claim objectives, they are generally in cover and their weapons are more often longer range than bolters. They don't need mobility or as much protection.

 

 

Sometimes my opinions might seem narrow, but I just don't think we should handicap ourselves in order to accommodate some perceived fluffy Rite of War.

Guilliman was a tactical genius after all, we owe it to our Ultras to represent his effective and strategic brilliance on the tabletop!

[GreyCrow]

Oh, I wasn't looking at it from a Logos' perspective But like you said, we need to consider all options for what they truly are, without bias. I do agree that the footslogging guys don't tend to be mobile enough, although I'm not sure how that is a problem for claiming objectives (from my experience with 40k at least).

For example, assuming the line (60 Tactical Marines) moves 6" forward and loses 2" per turn due to losses, over the course of 5 turns it will have moved 20" (without any running or charging involved). Assuming that you put them at the edge of your DZ, you can claim objectives that are on the edge of the enemy DZ by turn 6.

 

Now, obviously this is all theoretical and I'm not trying to be argumentative (obviously, I'm not factoring in difficult terrain, enemy charges, etc) ^^ I was just mentioning that it should work when fighting for the midfield, and anything beyond that is out of reach for a footslogging squad, which is where the army needs to have other options (drive the enemy Troops away from objectives deep within his DZ, so lots of long range, or fast moving assault elements, etc).

 

I do agree 100% with your points about the Terminators on foot. 5 in a Raider seems much more flexible and less susceptible to anti-infantry firepower, especially considering their relatively bad ranged weapons and good melee. Close assault support doesn't seem to do them much justice either, neither does counter attack duties.

 

____

 

Right now for main line Troops the choice for main line Troops seems to be either MSU (for Legion standards) with APCs, either full sized foot slogging regardless of the ROW. As I'm already playing MSU Mech in 40k, I was looking at the alternative for footslogging and I have a feeling it could be quite glorious.

 

The idea to pair it up with some armour would be to distract high quality firepower from the Troops (and might as well recycle tanks that I don't use with the Raven Guard anymore ), paired with 2 boxes of the starter set and minor extra purchases.

Something along the lines of :

Terminator Praetor

(Master of Signal if going the Logos' way)

3 x 20 Tactical Blobs with Apothecary

(Maybe a full 10 Plasma Support Squad if I have the points)

10 Power Fist Cataphractii, maybe with Volkites

2 Contemptors

1 x 2-3 Predator Executionners with Las sponsoons

2 x 1 Vindicators

 

The idea was to have vehicles with blast markers (who don't get any benefit from the Legiones Rules) to trigger them rerolls for anti-infantry after softening up a squad, but be flexible enough that they can engage armour in a pinch.

I'll churn out the points later tonight, but I've got a feeling this can fit at 3k points. Overall the list throws 80 bodies with the plasma support squad and 7 AV13 tanks with 3 HP each. I don't know if it's sufficient or not so I'm turning towards you for advice.

 

EDIT : Actually, the list fits at 3000 points Here's a mock up version I made  http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316211-ultramarines-logos-3000/

Edited November 18, 2015 by GreyCrow

[GreyCrow]

Sorry for the bump, but I was curious about which good assault units you would use in a Ultramarines' army ? (As in brutal and efficient Assault unit)

 

After taking a long look at the Suzerains after seeing all the comments here, but I find them super meh... S4 AP 2 isn't such a great anti-Terminator. Thankfully they have WS5 to help with the weight of attacks and the advantage of Initiative, but only wounding on 4s with no possibilities for Instant Death against the Terminators doesn't quite cut it for me (especially when the latter have a 4+ Invulnerable Save). For the same amount of points however, regular Terminators with 5 Power fists should do similar damage.

 

1) 5 Invictarus Suzerains : 15 Attacks on the Charge, 10 hits, 5 Wounds, 2.5 Terminators dead

2) 5 Terminators with Power Fists : 15 Attacks on the Charge, 7.5 hits, 6.25 Wounds, 3.125 Terminators dead

 

Obviously, the Terminators will strike at Initiative 1 and get killed in return, while the Suzerains will have removed attacks from the enemy. Let's assume that they are fighting against 5 Terminators equipped with Power Fists as well :

1) 2.5 Terminators survived, meaning 5 attacks, 2.5 hits, 2.08 wounds, 1.38 Suzerains Dead, winning combat by 1.12

2) 5 Terminators survived, meaning 10 attacks, 5 hits, 4.1667 wounds, 2.08 Terminators dead, winning combat by 1.045

 

So, they seem quite equivalent in terms of combat, although they will kill a lot less (and that is expected by wounding on a 4+). At first, I was thinking that throwing in the Plasma Pistols was interesting to capitalize on thinning the models before charging, but they really don't compare to the combi-Plasmas available on the Terminators.

 

1) 5 Plasma Pistols shooting at BS4, 3.33 hits, 2.77 wounds, 1.38 dead Terminators

2) 5 combi Plasmas shooting in Rapid fire range, 6.667 hits, 5.55 wounds, 2.77 dead Terminators

 

So, twice as many dead thanks to twice as many hits, but also costing a lot less. That Terminator squad with combi-plasmas and Power Fists is 235 points while the Suzerains with the Plasma Pistols are 275 points...

 

So, is there any point in running the Suzerains ? I can understand that they are more of a defensive unit thanks to the boarding shields, but as an offensive assault unit, the Terminators seem to be better.

Also, if they're just there standing in the open waiting for the enemy to charge, they're just going to be wiped out by shooting due to a poor invulnerable. So, you want to throw them up front in a transport, wipe a unit and then defend against counter charges. But is it worth the extra points and the worse killyness ?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Remember that the axes auto-wound on 6s to hit, so its more like 15 attacks, 10 hits (two 6s), 6 wounds, 3 dead terminators. They can also sweep compared to normal terminators, which isn't a big deal in normal 40k with all the ATSKNF, fearless and LD 10, but means a lot in 30k

[Caillum]

The're also not Bulky, so fit more into transports.

[GreyCrow]

Remember that the axes auto-wound on 6s to hit, so its more like 15 attacks, 10 hits (two 6s), 6 wounds, 3 dead terminators. They can also sweep compared to normal terminators, which isn't a big deal in normal 40k with all the ATSKNF, fearless and LD 10, but means a lot in 30k

 

I definitely misread the axes, I read on 6 to wound :O I need to review my calculations then.

 

 

The're also not Bulky, so fit more into transports.

 

I was planning to make a retinue for Guilliman that is quite efficient so a Spartan was going to be chosen, transport capacity isn't an issue :)

[Captain Idaho]

Striking at initiative with AP2 is worthwhile for consideration against more than just fighting your direct competitors in a one for one showdown.

 

Consider:

 

- Against a unit of Veterans that you pounce on who only have a single powerfist Sergeant - you will likely win that challenge.

 

- Fighting reduced strength units gets you wipe outs before that hidden power axe strikes.

 

- A prolonged battle of attrition enables you to win more cleanly if you're striking before initiative 1.

 

- Orks. It's going to happen sooner than we think considering that rumour about a Heresy BL book detailing some sort of attack on the Imperium by them.

 

- They look cool. Unbelievably cool.

 

- Any model can fight a challenge.

 

- 5 plus a Praetor can fit into a standard Land Raider whereas only 4 plus Praetor can do the same. Note a Guilliman can get inside the Land Raider too. This saves points on a Spartan. Sure, Spartans are cool, but they aren't that tough.

[Hesh Kadesh]

This man gets it.

 

Also, can we please disabuse the notion of close combat AP2 being used to hunt terminators? It's not an actual thing that should happen if you have a choice over it. And you do. You're in a Dreadclaw making a turn 2 assault deep into enemy lines. 

[GreyCrow]

@Captain : Fair points, especially regarding the battle of attrition. ;)

 

I'm definitely going for the Spartan over the Land Raider for a Primarch taxi however (keep in mind that this will be planned for 4k-5k games, but in the meantime I want to prepare the rest of the army with that goal in mind) ^^ The extra Hull Point plus Flare Shield will really help.

I agree that they look cool, but I'm looking for a good fit for Guilliman ^^ Something beatstick and powerful to bring the hurt to the traitors.

 

@Hesh : I should have said that I wasn't looking at a Terminator Hunting unit per se and I agree 100% with you that it's better to kill them in shooting because this is where they're lacking :) I just want a nasty damaging melee unit with the Primarch, and I want it to be able to hold its own against any thing thrown at it to intercept it in melee, either by killing it first, either by tanking sufficiently.

 

But perhaps I'm looking at the use of Guilliman wrong. He really seems to be buffing the shooting of his army rather than the melee prowess or giving any buff making the army better at melee (Interceptor, Tank Hunters all benefit primarily shooty support units). So perhaps I should maximize the shooting and defending against melee, and joining him to a counter melee squad whose goal is to intercept the ennemy beatsticks and hold them here.

 

It's true that he doesn't look particularily impressive in hand to hand except in challenges.

[Captain Idaho]

I think playing Ultramarines requires a combined arms approach since often we don't have the extreme tools and units/bonuses that others do. It stops the paper, rock, scissors thing.

 

What's more, 400pts of character just for tank hunter is a tad wasteful I reckon to hold a reserve unit for counter attack that might not get used and is reactionary.

 

He's got 5 attacks that will mulch infantry and even Dreads and vehicles. He can tank wounds for the squad, or just over kill some poor Sergeant and then continue into the squad.

 

Essentially he provides a very real threat an opponent can't ignore. This will alleviate the pressure from your shooting units, for example. He does this whilst buffing your shooting units.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Captain Idaho

[Ishagu]

That's exactly my mentality.

Guilliman and some Invectarus Suzerains in a Landraider with Ceramite isn't something you can ignore. I also run them with a basic Chaplain as re-rolling those misses in combat makes the whole unit far, far more effective. Remember all you have to do is win combat and you can overrun a big unit.

 

I love the fact they can sweeping advance, and that each one can accept a challenge if you don't fancy your Primarch getting stuck into a tank-like character.

 

I support them with a very strong element of shooting from various Tanks and artillery units to thin out threats to them or their transport :-)

 

 

The Ultramarines aren't specifically a shooting focused Legion, but through correct unit combinations and play they are incredibly effective at doing so.

They aren't focused on close combat either, yet have access to one of, if not the best Marine infantry cc units and can even take Terminators as troops thanks to the Primarch.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Ishagu