[HH1.0] 30k Ultramarines tactics

[Hesh Kadesh]

The Praevian is limited to 18-24" range though if he buys the Bolter (longest range weapon)

[GreyCrow]

Would the Logos Lectora be really limiting in an Ultramarines army ? How many units would you Infiltrate/Deep Strike generally ?

[Ishagu]

Would the Logos Lectora be really limiting in an Ultramarines army ? How many units would you Infiltrate/Deep Strike generally ?

The Logos Lectora is clumsy and limiting in my opinion, I wouldn't bother considering it :-/

[GreyCrow]

 

Would the Logos Lectora be really limiting in an Ultramarines army ? How many units would you Infiltrate/Deep Strike generally ?

The Logos Lectora is clumsy and limiting in my opinion, I wouldn't bother considering it :-/

 

 

In what way did you feel it was limiting to you ? 

[apologist]

On the other hand, the Rite of War is wonderfully characterful, and should be considered for that alone. Infantry-heavy battles tend to give a fantastic aesthetic to the tabletop, and that's important. 

 

Aesthetics aside, I think the bonuses are good and the restrictions largely irrelevant. I'd always take at least three troops choices anyway; particularly with Ultramarines since their rules reward a large number of units. The Master of Signals or command rhino are also both good all-round and versatile choices, so their inclusion is not a burden.

 

BS2 overwatch is a solid upgrade – and only gets better with more bodies on the board. As anexample, a volley of overwatch fire from a rapid-firing Ultramarine squad at full strength resulting in thirteen hits on average. In concert with the Legiones Astartes (Ultramarine) rule, that translates into around six casualties against power-armoured T4 targets.

 

Obviously that's a 'parade ground' example – it's rare that your enemy will charge his forces into a full-strength Legion Tactical Squad without softening them up, but my point is that the Ultramarines' overwatch fire will cause roughly triple the casualties of other Legions owing to the combination of their rules and this Rite of War. Anything that gives the other player pause before committing is an advantage. It the opposing army stays at arm's length, that only benefits you. If they close, you've got counter-attack to help you out.

 

Essentially, my conclusion after reading this Rite of War is that it's characterful and synergises well with the Legiones Astartes (Ultramarines) rule. It doesn't hugely change the army, but increases the already good strength of an infantry-based force. If that's a playstyle you like, it's an excellent choice.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Apologist

[Ishagu]

It's definitely characterful, but it's in no way remotely competitive.

It prevents multiple tanks or flyers, and pushed your army towards a slow, clumsy ground force with limited damage output.

[apologist]

A fair point. Still, a Tactica thread ought to look at weaknesses as well as strengths. How to get the best out of a choice, rather than write it off as sub-optimal. We'd all have terribly similar lists, otherwise! :)

 

+ How best to use the Logos Lectora? +

Pure theoretical for me at this point, but I suspect the Ultramarine Rite of War would lend itself well to scenarios or missions revolving around static defence. Fortifications are not included in the restrictions, and infantry are obviously advantaged by being able to shelter in them. There is also potential for heavy weaponry, which can provide good fire support typically lacking in infantry-based armies.

 

The Legion Tactical Squad unit size can be used to garrison your fortification most efficiently, while counter-attack and the improved overwatch makes them fiercer defenders than might be expected. Additional close combat weapons on your Tactical Marines further build on the synergy.

 

Given the static nature of such a list, longer range weaponry is useful, and so volkite support squads score a point over a smaller boltgun-armed tactical squad; and so seem a fairly sensible choice against armies that prefer to hang back and bombard your forces.

 

I'd suggest the Master of Signal is a better option for the mandatory HQ inclusion, as it doesn't use up a valuable vehicle slots, and boosts one of your defending units to BS5 – again, excellent in concert with the Legiones Astartes (Ultramarines) rules. In addition, the orbital bombardment is a good all-round weapon.

 

Legion Rapiers, again, don't count against the vehicle limit. Thudd guns can shelter behind your fortification, out of line-of-sight and benefitting from the synergy with the Master of Signal. Laser Destroyers suffer slightly from poor range, but if you opponent rushes forward in vehicles, they are a good way to intercept them – again, benefitting from the Legiones Astartes (Ultramarines) rules. 

 

Even if you take the minimum three troops units, you still have the potential for three heavy tanks. These can provide the basis of a good counter-attacking force. 

 

+++

[Hesh Kadesh]

Masters of Signal, unless I'm missing something, are support officers as of the FAQ.

 

Remember as well, that your allies can still take transports, which includes legiones astartes;IF, BA, IH, and Imperial Army are all gold allies, while only WE have major penalties for allying, and even that is rare (6" and only 1 in 6).

 

If you need flyers or Vehicles, its pretty obvious, just take IH. Maybe count as 'Aurorans' with Orth, Tac Squad and your choice of Flyer and Tank.

 

Terminators in a phobos, Tac in Rhino, Orth in Venator, Primaris/Xiphon as FA

[Ishagu]

I don't see how the Logos Lectora can possibly make a more effective list than even a standard Age of Darkness force org.

 

Hey, if you want to foot-slog tactical blobs go ahead. Volkite support squads are good... Unit av13 armour makes an appearance.

 

Frankly, the Ultramarines list I'm working on at the moment is a lot more effective and still fluffy than something I could brew using that restrictive RoW.

[apologist]

Masters of Signal, unless I'm missing something, are support officers as of the FAQ.

 

True, but they're an additional compulsory HQ in the Logos Lectora (so you have to take one in addition to another non-Support Officer HQ).

 

In regards to adding allies, I think that would dilute the strength of the Legiones Astartes (Ultramarines) rule – so unless you're taking the Legion with a view to using the specialist Ultramarines units, you might be better off just running with the other Legion.

 

 

 

 

I don't see how the Logos Lectora can possibly make a more effective list than even a standard Age of Darkness force org.

 

I'm not disputing with that point. However, since it's an Ultramarines Tactica, the unique ROW deserves a little discussion beyond 'It's bad, don't use it', don't you think?  Besides, there's more to life than competitive gaming – particularly with the Age of Darkness ruleset. I imagine there are quite a few scenarios (as in my earlier example) where the Logos Lectora stands up realtively well.

 

I'm quite happy to be shown I'm wrong – but it seems a shame not to discuss tabletop tactics rather than pure list-building.

[Hesh Kadesh]

If you wanted to play UM to their strnegth you wouldn't play Logos Lectura ;)

[Ishagu]

If you wanted to play UM to their strnegth you wouldn't play Logos Lectura ;)

This is actually true. Ultras work best with Tacs in Rhinos - once the Rhino scores a hit, the disembarked Marines get the shooting bonus against the same target.

 

You also want multiple advancing units to get the re rolls to charge.

 

You support this with multiple ranged, hard hitting units. Multiples work best for the Ultras, not large, slow moving infantry lists.

 

The reason I'm dismissing the Logos Lectora is because it's rubbish and I'm disappointed. The strength of the Ultras lies in their great unique units, their shooting buff, and their excellent Primarch.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Ishagu

[GreyCrow]

But once again, why not ? The only thing the Logos Lectora prohibits is Deep Striking and Infiltrate, and not more tanks/fliers than Infantry units. Once again, what units would not fit in the Logos Lectora compared to a vanilla army ?

You can still have Tacticals in Rhinos, and a 1:1 footslogging/tank ratio for other units. Example : Dreadnought would allow for one extra tank.

 

EDIT : Not trying to be a smart ass here, but genuinely trying to understand what examples of limitations would the logos lectora prohibit.

Edited June 12, 2015 by GreyCrow

[Ishagu]

You would spend over 1k points on basic tac squads and the two mandatory hqs before you even start considering the more impressive firepower and mobility options.

 

The Logos could work at 3k+ points, even then it's not efficient.

 

Also, the rules the Logos provides are really underwhelming!

Edited June 12, 2015 by Ishagu

[GreyCrow]

True, but better to have free rules than without a ROW, wouldn't you say ? You're likely to have a Praetor in your list anyways ? 

 

I'm asking because I have a feeling that's it's mandatory to run 30+ tactical marines, so perhaps 2 Tactical Blobs is a better option, but I feel you'd field 3 troops anyways with an Ultramarines army.

Edited June 12, 2015 by GreyCrow

[Ishagu]

As I'm running the Primarch, I'm not intending to run a Praetor. I've switched to a Forge Lord with Rad Grenades and servo arm who'll be repairing my Ceramite equipped Landraider and weakening units that I charge or get charged by.

 

Frankly, the Primarch is not only a great combatant but a brilliant force multiplier. I'd rather spend the points on him than the underwhelming boosts provided by running multiple unnecessary hqs, infantry blobs, and having a cap on my armour.

 

I'm running two Tac Squads in Rhinos at 2k, alongside Invectarus Suzerains. At 2.5k I add Terminators as additional infantry, also considering Locutarus.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Ishagu

[apologist]

You would spend over 1k points on basic tac squads and the two mandatory hqs before you even start considering the more impressive firepower and mobility options.

 

 

No you wouldn't. Three 10-man tactical squads doesn't even come to 500pts; and the Master of Signal is considerably under 100pts, too. In fact, even taking into account taking a Praetor, rather than a Centurion, as your other compulsory HQ, and giving him a decent amount of equipment, you haven't even used 750pts.

 

 

 

I'm running two Tac Squads in Rhinos at 2k, alongside Invectarus Suzerains. At 2.5k I add Terminators as additional infantry, also considering Locutarus.

With Guilliman, Invictus Suzerains are troops, so both of those lists fit within the Logos Lectura. You've also got space for two additional tanks; so you could put in two Land Raiders, for example. 

 

I think having multiple HQs is a good idea in any case, owing to the Rigid Chain of Command rule. By spending lots of points on specialist equipment like tanks (and Guilliman) at low points levels, don't you find skimping on your HQ leaves vulnerabilities?

[Ishagu]

Would you take 3 footslogging 10 man tac squads? Of course not.

If you bring their Rhinos then you've wasted your tanks.

 

If you were footslogging Marines you'd take 20 man units and add an apothecary for good measure.

 

I also wouldn't burn points on two HQs AND a Primarch.

 

Tell me, which of the underwhelming rules the Logos Lectora provides would convince you to run the army that way?

[apologist]

Sorry Ishagu, reading back over that it comes across a bit aggressive – not my intention. 

 

I think the Ultramarines' list leaves a lot of room for different approaches, which suits the feel of the Legion well. Personally I tend to rely on redundancy, so I'd leave most choices almost bare bones, and simply take more of them. The points that this saves across 3000pts really add up – leaving off upgrades like reinforced ceramite, for example, in a tank-heavy list will soon buy another Land Raider, which I find more valuable and leaves my army less vulnerable to unfortunate (or lucky, depending on your point of view!) dice rolls.

 

+++

 

 

Would you take 3 footslogging 10 man tac squads? Of course not.

Actually, I would! :)

I'll happily confess to not being the most competitive player, but I really like the aesthetic of boots on the ground.

 

The balance of unit size and unit number is what interests me about the Ultramarines. Larger units have certain advantages, but I get the impression you might be better off with more mid-size units – three of fifteen, for example.

 

 

 

Tell me, which of the underwhelming rules the Logos Lectora provides would convince you to run the army that way?

Perhaps I'm looking at it from a different angle. My existing army and preferred playstyle already fits nicely into the Rite of War, so from my point of view it's lots of free advantages for no cost. From your point of view (lots of specialists and expensive upgrades), it's a terrible downgrade.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Apologist

[Hesh Kadesh]

If you were to run it, then taking 3 10man Squads on Foot is the best way to run it. There is a big thread which talked about tooling up tacs, and I kept the opinion that taking minimum expense tac Squads (maybe Tac squads with Vox and Vexilla at most) is better than taking full 20 man squads Loaded for bear.

 

Mainly because in those extra 360pts sunk into 3 units I can take a Typhon. In larger points games, the limitation isn't such a problem (oddly), as you can afford to a; take more powerful and kitted tanks, meaning reliance on AV13 walls are reduced and b; if you wantes to play tanks, you wouldn't play eithe. UM or LL.

[hivey]

The ROW says that you can only take as many tanks/fliers as you have infantry units. Base praetor/console is an infantry unit. So the ROW can have at least 5 tanks/fliers just taking the 2 hw and 3 troops. Ol' guilliman is an infantry unit too.

[Komrk]

So I'm thinking about starting an Ultramarine force, eventually building up to about 3k. My basic idea behind the force is a Mechanized Infantry force, most likely using Pride of the Legion to bring Veteran Tacs. Some armor support, maybe a fast unit like Bikes/Jetbikes, that kind of stuff. I don't have Book 5 yet so I was just wondering how effective that force might be using the Ultramarines rules.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Before playing Pride of the Legion, work out whether you're really going to need it.

 

1) You have 4 Elites choices.

2) Playing Mechanised infantry means you don't have as much need for Apothecaries (Rhinos hold 10 men), so that "Apothecary" isn't needed as much.

3) Terminators can't deep strike, so are forced into expensive Land Raider type transports or Dreadclaws which take up your fast attack choices which are much cheaper and flexible.

4) Dreadnoughts are slow, meaning they are shooting based, and Contemptors get expensive very quick so not many in any case, and can take 1-3 per choice, (but they're not a squadron) unless you're taking Mortis, in which case take a Deredeo with Aiolos, they are just better.

5) You get benefits from having multiple small squads to "light up" a target beforehand. A Tactical Marine squad in a Rhino can target 2 units per turn (Combi Bolter and Bolt Pistol through the Firepoints). For 185pts per squad, you're enhancing your already good units.

6) Pride of the Legion gives away free points. On Terminators, the risk is to take a pair of huge units, while on Tacticals, they're expensive, but defensively equally weak.

 

Ultramarine Bolter Sniper Vets are insanely good in this combination. 

Edited June 28, 2015 by Hesh Kadesh

[Remus Ventanus.]

Are there different rules for veteran tacs in Tempest? Im looking through it and cant find anything regarding veterans.

[Hesh Kadesh]

No. But rerolling 1's on Sniper Vets are especially good. Tag a unit with a basic Combi Bolter from a Rhino (otherwise a singularly useless weapon) and you now have a reroll on 1's to wound when shooting it with other Legiones Astartes Ultramarines.