[HH1.0] 30k Ultramarines tactics

[Sanct]

If you were to run it, then taking 3 10man Squads on Foot is the best way to run it. There is a big thread which talked about tooling up tacs, and I kept the opinion that taking minimum expense tac Squads (maybe Tac squads with Vox and Vexilla at most) is better than taking full 20 man squads Loaded for bear.

 

TBH that thread used a single beefed tactical, apoth + chappy build. You then tried to argue against it by ignoring the compulsory HQ usage, adding up to 100 points to your alternatives and then put the squad in situations you would never choose to put them in (who would charge at a PW veteran squad when you could shoot them? Who would move a spartan in range of graviton rapiers when you could shoot them @ 36-48"?) 

When I pointed some of this out you refused to respond and demanded a counter to a mathhammer post.

 

You shouldn't use anecdotal evidence of the forum equivalent to sticking your fingers in your ears as a persuasive argument hesh.*

 

*unless you mean a different thread in which case. oops :D

 

No. But rerolling 1's on Sniper Vets are especially good. Tag a unit with a basic Combi Bolter from a Rhino (otherwise a singularly useless weapon) and you now have a reroll on 1's to wound when shooting it with other Legiones Astartes Ultramarines.

 

Hmmm I'm not sold. Rerolling 1's to wound only result in a single extra wound from 10 being rapid fired.  I agree with apologist in post #57  that interlocking tactics encourages more boots on the ground for the likes of rapiers and heavy/regular support squads.  Volkite definitely likes it for the deflagerate rerolls.

This is double buffed in the Logos Lectora RoW. Double the chance to hit when moved or going for fliers? MoS mandatory?  Not bad as such for that kind of build.

How do you think the reroll would affect haywire?  It doesn't specify an armour penetration roll so is this the same issue as tankhunters?

 

The balance of unit size and unit number is what interests me about the Ultramarines. Larger units have certain advantages, but I get the impression you might be better off with more mid-size units – three of fifteen, for example.

 

Go for 13, 17 or 20 + apoth size squads. It's a little gamey but the breakpoints for avoiding morale tests are useful to me in 30k. Plus the numbers are different to most.

[apologist]

Veterans with sniper do have the benefit of feeling intensely cool :)  Precision shot is potentially useful to take out supporting apothecaries, sergeants etc., and their rules improves against tougher opposition. If I were to run squads in Rhinos, Veterans with sniper do seem a nice thematic way to represent the Ultramarines fire discipline.

 

I still lean towards low-strength weapons (like boltguns, rotor cannons etc.) benefitting most, and so would err towards larger Tactical squads and support squads. The thing to bear in mind is how infantry-heavy and aggressive the armies you'll face will tend to be; if you often face small, elite armies or armour-heavy ones, then your mileage will vary.

[Son of Carnelian]

See, I'm of two minds. One, I love footslogging armies but I always get eaten up by massed fire. I've got no head for tactics and like Apologist, I just like the look of a bunch of Space Marines on the tabletop. 

 

That said, I've also started seriously considering the Angel's Wrath RoW. Hit and Run has always proved exceptionally useful in my experience in the 40k universe and I love the idea of an Assault company of Ultramarines. But I'm not feeling confidant about either of these. Are they any ways to make either of those work?

[GreyCrow]

Interestingly enough, I stumbled upon several books on modern warfare theories and strike force structuration and it's surprising to see how much the Legiones Ultramarines allows to apply these theories on the tabletop ^^

 

Interlocking tactics really allows to make an infantry force in a combined arms or supporting arms approach and still get benefit from it, while still hinting at putting enough bodies on the table to tactically outnumber the target units. Very interesting research done by ForgeWorld there, and how wonderful of a tactician the Spiritual Liege is :p

[depthcharge12]

Does anyone run power swords on breachers squads? I admit I'm a bit jealous that they can take them.

 

I understand that breachers are a bit overpriced, but I think using the UM tactics could make them deadly.

[Ishagu]

See, I'm of two minds. One, I love footslogging armies but I always get eaten up by massed fire. I've got no head for tactics and like Apologist, I just like the look of a bunch of Space Marines on the tabletop.

 

That said, I've also started seriously considering the Angel's Wrath RoW. Hit and Run has always proved exceptionally useful in my experience in the 40k universe and I love the idea of an Assault company of Ultramarines. But I'm not feeling confidant about either of these. Are they any ways to make either of those work?

Imo, if you want to run Assault Marines with the Ultras, the Locutarus Storm squad is a good shout. Give the unit 3 flamer pistols and deepstrike them.

 

In general however, Ultras aren't best when foot slogged. I think Tacticals in Rhinos are the better option because of Interlocking tactics (the Rhinos can target a unit first, making the Tacticals more effective when they open fire)

[Hesh Kadesh]

6 S3 Templates for 315pts, risking DSing too close or too far, and no Deep Strike, Run, Shoot?

 

Nah.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Hesh Kadesh

[Ishagu]

So, what units are people including in their Ultramarines legion lists?

 

Highly competitive units include:

 

-Sicaran Tanks

-Deredeo

-Vindicator Laser Destroyer

-Rapier Quadd Mortars

 

 

I'm really impressed with the rules for the Deredeo, and I've faced one on more than one occasion - definitely an impressive unit. I'm struggling to find the points for one, however.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Tbh, i'd always drop units elsewhere to make points for it. Effectively, the Sicaran and Deredeo have similar rolls, but the Deredeo is better, with only the speed of the Sicaran being a point in its favour. Against any list with MEQ's, the Aiolos pays for itself.

 

The Vindicator Tank Hunter is one of the best vehicles, but IMHO it needs to be 1-3 per choice or at least in a squadron. My problem is that they are also up against a Grav Rapier for AT duties, and at a similar price point and resilience.

 

Quad Mortars; they aight. Good flexibility. But not a must take.

 

A lot of your units selected are in opposition to fulmentari, who are one of those units just so good to take. And fun to use. Rerolling ones to wound with krak missile machine guns at -1 to cover and no night fight bonus on bs5 s8 ap3 heavy 2? Absolutely melts enemies.

[Ishagu]

But with Ultramarines, those Sicarans can all have the tank hunter rule.

That IS something to be feared. I'm planning with the Primarch of course

[depthcharge12]

Has anyone tried "Orbital bombardments 4 dayzzz?"

 

 

Take the minimum HQ, then take two MoS both with a Damocles rhino DT :D

 

Play Kate Perry's fireworks and have fun.

[Hesh Kadesh]

But with Ultramarines, those Sicarans can all have the tank hunter rule.

That IS something to be feared. I'm planning with the Primarch of course

That Tank Hunter is reliant on you taking Guilliman, no? And you're comparing S7 Tank Hunter to S8 Sunder. That's 400+135 minimum. Sure, the returns get better; 570 or 705 for 3, but (690pts for 3 Aiolos gets you AA, and possibly 6+ free MEQ kills a turn, which is often enough to keep it open) Respectively, and Guilliman is pretty good (until he faces pretty much any Primarch that's not Dorn, Loyalist Lorgar or Mortarion).

 

Plus, I'd rather take a Typhon for my Lord of War, because a S10 AP1 7" Ignores Cover Blast is amazing for not only blending units but for triggering the reroll to wound on Legiones Astartes models. 

[Ishagu]

Remember that the Sicarans have Rending too, something the Deredeo doesn't.

Skyfire is the basis for it's appeal in my book, that and harassing the side armour of the various other tanks!

 

Guilliman is actually only second to Horus when it comes to fighting other Primarchs. He would handily beat any of the others - someone worked out the mathematics:

 

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Roboute_Guilliman (scroll to the bottom and expand)

 

 

Typhon is great however, no doubt about that.

There is quite a bit of an internal imbalance in the Legion unit selection. 5 Recon Marines with Sniper rifles will set you back 150 pts - that's 5 t4 wounds, 5 sniper shots.

120 points will get you 3 Quad Bolter Rapiers - 12 t7 wounds, 18 TL str5 shots. It's why I think it's best for us to discuss competent unit choices. Not necessarily trying to spam cheese, but you'd like to have a decent list for the money spent! :-P

Edited July 16, 2015 by Ishagu

[Hesh Kadesh]

Mathematically true and props to whoever worked that out. I've yet to play many primarch on primarch battles, but when working out percentages, it is easy to cut out the rounding stage which happens at each turn (especially when that happens with IWND, for example).

 

Look at Angron, whose damage when rounding becomes between 1 and 3 wounds, and forgetting the fact that Hit and Run usually involves a unit of Dark Fury or Night Raptors allowing I4 or better HnR.

 

If it works, though, it works. And like the author said, if he was going to be run, he wouldn't be necessarily doing Primarch v Primarch in game.

 

Agrred over points difference; but it still remains that despite Rending (which allows it to have a chance at penning LR's and even Spartans), the Sunder S8 is usually the most effective, things like T7 Castellax, and the fact that to get the only useful result out of Penning a lR is a 1 in 3 on top of a 2/3 or 1/3 chance in top of a 1/6 chance ;) yeh, rending rarely comes into play usefully.

 

If you are facing Ork Bikers though, that aP4 ignores jink is awesome. against meqs like Eldar, or even better, Legion Jetbikes, that 2+ Means that th. 1 in 6 chance you have of rending may not come into play all that often. It is good for hunting down light skimmers though; but at the same point though, short of Dark Eldar, do you really see them in game? Land speeders are rare in 30k and as podded dreads get better and cheaper in 40k speeders get worse (except the storm), while Vypers have been poor as long as I can remember. Tau? Tetras used to be used, but that was the abuse of Markerlights more than anything.

 

It works, don't get me wrong. It is not broken in that it doesn't work in the role it is meant to (like say an assault squad), but it can be better against all but niche targets.

[Ishagu]

Well, I'm still working on a list and could fit a Deredeo in one...

 

-Centurion, Power Fist

-Primarch Roboute Guilliman

-10 Tacs, Combi Plasma, Rhino

-10 Tacs, Combi Plasma, Rhino

-5 Invictarus Suzerains, Landraider

-3 Rapier Quad Heavy Bolters/2 Rapier Thudd Guns

-Sicaran, Lascannon Sponsons

-Sicaran, Lascannon Sponsons

-Deredeo, Aiolos Missile Launcher, Heavy Bolter

 

 

I think this could work as it covers AA, and 2 Sicarans with tank hunter are a real threat.

 

I wish I wasn't limited by trying to fit everything in 2k, but alas that is my Meta.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Ishagu

[Sanct]

Mathematically true and props to whoever worked that out. I've yet to play many primarch on primarch battles, but when working out percentages, it is easy to cut out the rounding stage which happens at each turn (especially when that happens with IWND, for example).

 

Look at Angron, whose damage when rounding becomes between 1 and 3 wounds, and forgetting the fact that Hit and Run usually involves a unit of Dark Fury or Night Raptors allowing I4 or better HnR.

 

If it works, though, it works. And like the author said, if he was going to be run, he wouldn't be necessarily doing Primarch v Primarch in game.

 

I'm seeing something hinky in the math he used for the armour of reason.

 

Looking at Mortarion:

• Mortarion hits 2.5 times, wounds 1.666, 0.333 wounds after saves and after IWND they become 0 wounds

They average out that roboute is saving 80% of the wounds which is better than a permanent rerollable 4++!  It scales to 50% against Angron which is worse than the armour of reason should be. (at least in my head)

Any ideas how he's working it?

Edited July 16, 2015 by Sanct

[Ishagu]

 

 

Mathematically true and props to whoever worked that out. I've yet to play many primarch on primarch battles, but when working out percentages, it is easy to cut out the rounding stage which happens at each turn (especially when that happens with IWND, for example).

 

Look at Angron, whose damage when rounding becomes between 1 and 3 wounds, and forgetting the fact that Hit and Run usually involves a unit of Dark Fury or Night Raptors allowing I4 or better HnR.

 

If it works, though, it works. And like the author said, if he was going to be run, he wouldn't be necessarily doing Primarch v Primarch in game.

I'm seeing something hinky in the math he used for the armour of reason.

 

Looking at Mortarion:

• Mortarion hits 2.5 times, wounds 1.666, 0.333 wounds after saves and after IWND they become 0 wounds

They average out that roboute is saving 80% of the wounds which is better than a permanent rerollable 4++! It scales to 50% against Angron which is worse than the armour of reason should be. (at least in my head)

Any ideas how he's working it?

Well, in the Mortarion example, basically he's saying Mortarion will cause 1 or maybe 2 wounds. Guilliman has a 75% chance to save the first which is superior to a 3++. After IWND there's a high chance he won't have taken any wounds at all. Remember the armour of reason grants a re roll in each phase of each turn. It only works out that way because Primarchs don't tend to inflict a huge amount of wounds on each other.

 

I've actually witnessed a few Primarch battles - they all take around 8 - 11 turns as all of the Primarchs are quite tanky.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Ishagu

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

Mathematically true and props to whoever worked that out. I've yet to play many primarch on primarch battles, but when working out percentages, it is easy to cut out the rounding stage which happens at each turn (especially when that happens with IWND, for example).

 

Look at Angron, whose damage when rounding becomes between 1 and 3 wounds, and forgetting the fact that Hit and Run usually involves a unit of Dark Fury or Night Raptors allowing I4 or better HnR.

 

If it works, though, it works. And like the author said, if he was going to be run, he wouldn't be necessarily doing Primarch v Primarch in game.

 

I'm seeing something hinky in the math he used for the armour of reason.

 

Looking at Mortarion:

• Mortarion hits 2.5 times, wounds 1.666, 0.333 wounds after saves and after IWND they become 0 wounds

They average out that roboute is saving 80% of the wounds which is better than a permanent rerollable 4++!  It scales to 50% against Angron which is worse than the armour of reason should be. (at least in my head)

Any ideas how he's working it?

 

True. 1.666 halved is 0.888, with the reroll giving 0.444.

 

Angron is about right; 8 attacks, hitting on 3's is 5-6 wounds, with 4-5 wounds being caused, and then 4+ reducing it to 2-3, with a reroll saving another 0-1, giving a potential number of wounds taken to 1-3 (mathematically), with a chance of saving one with IWND at the end of the turn healing 0-1, causing anywhere between 0 and 3 wounds.

 

This is what I mean about where pure mathematics breaks down; 0.333 wounds healed is better than a 1 in 3 chance of healing a wound, even though mathematically they result in the same; after all, it's a 66% chance to fail each time you roll the dice, with 12 negative and only 6 positive chances to win. 

 

I can't honestly be bothered going to the effort to disprove or disprove right now (if ever), but like I said, that's in a vacuum, and not assuming that in the case of things like the RG player isn't hitting him with Rending Shred, and unlike many other Primarchs, Curze and Corax run best with a unit, trading their improved toughness and saves, for the utility of Hit and Run with units like Dakr Fury or Night Raptors.

[Sanct]

True. 1.666 halved is 0.888, with the reroll giving 0.444.

 

 

Half of 1.6 recurring is 0.83 recurring. Half of that is 0.416 recurring. 

 

Seems like he was halving for the 4++  and then subtracting 0.5 to account for the reroll..  Weird because that would badly tip things in roboute's favour.

 

EDIT:  When I say badly I mean the math would imply that most non-primarchs would inflict negative expected number of wounds.  A static modifier massively sways things in RG's favour.  If you applied the reroll to the result from 1 attack then Mort would be inflicting 0.417 wounds per turn after IWND. Not enough to theoretically win but it means Mort can actually kill RG.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Sanct

[Hesh Kadesh]

I cant maths last night. Think wheb wprking out angrons attacks I might have missed his hatred reroll (3+ reroll on 8 attacks) as well.

 

Still not sure why angron only has 5 wounds after all this time.

[Ishagu]

It mentions Angron starts out by dealing more damage.

[Sanct]

I did some follow up math on RG vs the Primarchs figuring that you could calculate 1 attack with the armour of reason reroll and the rest of their attacks without the reroll using the same basis as the 1d4chan link.

 

Horus wins in under 5 rounds because disabling strike more than balances out RG's preternatural strats

 

Angron wins in 6 rounds as RG needs 8 to kill him

 

Fulgrim wins in 7 rounds as RG needs 11 to kill fulgrim (the master crafting makes this an average result)

 

Mort loses needing 15 rounds to kill RG (who needs 9 to end it)

 

Ferrus just barely loses need 10 rounds to kill when RG needs 9 (there are some slight rounding errors in these so this is an approximate result -  i wouldn't be surprised if they both died in a bro hug)

 

Konrad gets eviserated in 6 rounds when he needs about 9 rounds to kill RG

 

Vulkan takes forever with 15 rounds to hammer RG down (RG needs 12 with the gladius and 10 with the hand)

 

 

Most of these results are approximate but it looks like RG is closer to a middling fighter more worthy of his points level than the power house previously

Edited July 26, 2015 by Sanct

[Slips]

And in all of these cases, it shows that, in general, two Primarchs fighting each other will lock themselves up for an Entire Game.

[Sanct]

1 round = 1 player turn so more than half of them will probably end after 3 game turns

 

You and your gaming buddies don't have to stick to fixed game length either

[depthcharge12]

And that's why I don't think Primarchs should be used sub 3000 points. It's literally just tying up 400 points of your armies just for them to fight an inconclusive battle. Might as well take 4-500 points of D weapons just to circumnavigate that situation.