Dark Angels rumors. update: Codex leaks, pg 28

[shabbadoo]

This whole rant of yours might hold water if not for the fact you can house the DW command squad and DW knights into a lion's blade no problem, everything you just said about ravenwing go and substitute deathwing, it doesn't make any sense now. It is literally ONLY black knights and their command squad that cannot be used in this, everything else in the whole codex fits in there somewhere, same as all the other predecessor post-necron codex's, thats the point Im making.

This detachment is suppose to be able to build the army you want while still being fluffy, as has been the case in literally every other codex's 'decurion' detachment, so far we are the only ones that cannot. The codex SM "battle company" is basically identical to this, and they have the ability to use their whole codex in one way or the other no problem.

As to the first paragraph, yes, you are correct to a great degree (they really shouldn't have put the DW Knights/DW Command Squad in there. and even Belial and Sammael).

This formation is really focused on the concept of the Battle Company (proabably why Battle Company untis are mandatory). This Detachment is not all about building exactly the army that one wants to, because even with all of its options one can't do that. There is not a single Detachment, in any codex, that allows for this. The thing that does allow for it is called "Unbound", and you can put whatever you want to in such an army, fluffy or not. And, do you really think that Sammael showing up with Black Knights and a Ravenwing Command Squad as auxiliaries to a demi-Company is fluffy? You have four other options to choose from which allow you to include exactly the units you want to. I'm sorry, I forgot one option- run a CAD or Lion's Blade along with a RW Strike Force and a Deathwing Strike Force- if you want a full balance of each grouping with pretty much every option you could ask for. So, you have a mere five options to choose from to do what you want to, four of which have the benefit of additional rules. Anyone can do practically anything fluffy they want to under any of those options. Not being able to take Ravenwing Knights/Command Squads in the Lion's Blade so as to make use of use Supreme Fire Support is not that big of a deal. The other options give you more proactive (i.e. better) benefits, like Speed of the Raven and Strike as One. You can build a rather nice Greenwing + Ravenwing force with lots of abilities/versatility by taking Ravenwing units as both part of a Lion's Blade Strike Force and a Ravenwing Strike Force. Try it out. You will see that you can put together some really nasty stuff!

[Brother_Bethor]

Finally I've got the new codex! I don't know if it was already posted but in 'bestiary' section there are no rules in descriptions of units. Also the named characters are only in the 'army list' section. I'm sorry for our Deathwing brothers.

[Loar]

 

 

This whole rant of yours might hold water if not for the fact you can house the DW command squad and DW knights into a lion's blade no problem, everything you just said about ravenwing go and substitute deathwing, it doesn't make any sense now.  It is literally ONLY black knights and their command squad that cannot be used in this, everything else in the whole codex fits in there somewhere, same as all the other predecessor post-necron codex's, thats the point Im making. 

 

This detachment is suppose to be able to build the army you want while still being fluffy, as has been the case in literally every other codex's 'decurion' detachment, so far we are the only ones that cannot.  The codex SM "battle company" is basically identical to this, and they have the ability to use their whole codex in one way or the other no problem.

 

This Detachment is not all about building exactly the army that one wants to, because even with all of its options one can't do that.  There is not a single Detachment, in any codex, that allows for this.

 

 

Yes, yes there is.  That's the whole point that I'm making.  Every other release that has come out post-necron lets you use any of the units available in the codex in some fashion in their big "decurion" style detachment.  You may only be able to field one unit/model of it and have to pay a heavy formation tax, but it is still possible.  That's the whole point I'm making.  Go back and look at necron, eldar, SM, daemonkin, etc.  all of their 'decurion' formations have some way to field any unit in the codex to some capacity, and they pay a formation/unit tax to not make it abusable.  I'm not asking to have a lion's blade with 5 RW command squads.  But the ability to have black knights in there in some fashion should doable, even if i have to pay another 400 points in tax units to do so. 

 

Again we are the ONLY codex now that is unable to do this, asking for a way to use the available codex's units in some way into the codex's new main detachment is not trying to be unfluffy or being a cheesy player which is what you seem to be taking this as.  We just want the ability for the codex to work with itself, and omissions like this and obvious sloppy work on the DW and RW strike force shows this was not given the attention it deserves, This is not an unreasonable request for a product we are paying money for.

[deadangel101]

 

 

 

 

If you still want to field lots of termies, go unbound C:SM.

That's 9 squads for 1800 points, you just can't put shields in shooty squads (not much loss considering you have 45 termies on the table), the DW core rules are worth replacing with C:SM ones any day.

 

But RW and GW together will be excellent in this Dex.

If I wanted to play smurfs, I would play smurfs. I don't want to play smurfs. Ergo I'm Dark Angel. I'll probably use them as force multipliers for the fun of it. But as far as a serious list, can't see a use for them. Still overpriced for what they do, can't be taken as a standalone army, and Ravenwing just looks so much more fun.

Me too, just trying to sound constructive. It is hard with the current info.

Looks like you're going to be forced to take at least half RW to get DW to work in any decent way. Not the only option of course, but you need something on the table to survive the first turn. Still not going to have any ObSec unless you rake a CAD or Lion's Blade.

[shabbadoo]

Yes, yes there is. That's the whole point that I'm making. Every other release that has come out post-necron lets you use any of the units available in the codex in some fashion in their big "decurion" style detachment. You may only be able to field one unit/model of it and have to pay a heavy formation tax, but it is still possible. That's the whole point I'm making. Go back and look at necron, eldar, SM, daemonkin, etc. all of their 'decurion' formations have some way to field any unit in the codex to some capacity, and they pay a formation/unit tax to not make it abusable. I'm not asking to have a lion's blade with 5 RW command squads. But the ability to have black knights in there in some fashion should doable, even if i have to pay another 400 points in tax units to do so.

Again we are the ONLY codex now that is unable to do this, asking for a way to use the available codex's units in some way into the codex's new main detachment is not trying to be unfluffy or being a cheesy player which is what you seem to be taking this as. We just want the ability for the codex to work with itself, and omissions like this and obvious sloppy work on the DW and RW strike force shows this was not given the attention it deserves, This is not an unreasonable request for a product we are paying money for.

Aww, we're the only codex to not have every unit entry available to some degree in a single Detachment. We are so wronged! Big deal. We can choose whatever units we want to using multiple detachments/formations, and get better abilities when doing so. We could get mad abou that (for whatever useless reason), or instead just choose to sidestep the restrictions altogether by building a force in a different way. If only there were many ways of doing that... Seriously, thou dost protest too much about something so far down the list of imagined slights that it falls into the realm of irrelevance. You can still build the list you want (a better one actually), but you'll have to look at an extra page or two to do it. Oh, the humanity.

A simple errata tweak to the wargear- taking a bike confers the Ravenwing rule, and taking TDA confers the Deathwing rule- and the book will be very functional.

[Master Avoghai]

 

 

This whole rant of yours might hold water if not for the fact you can house the DW command squad and DW knights into a lion's blade no problem, everything you just said about ravenwing go and substitute deathwing, it doesn't make any sense now.  It is literally ONLY black knights and their command squad that cannot be used in this, everything else in the whole codex fits in there somewhere, same as all the other predecessor post-necron codex's, thats the point Im making. 

 

This detachment is suppose to be able to build the army you want while still being fluffy, as has been the case in literally every other codex's 'decurion' detachment, so far we are the only ones that cannot.  The codex SM "battle company" is basically identical to this, and they have the ability to use their whole codex in one way or the other no problem.

 

 

This Detachment is not all about building exactly the army that one wants to, because even with all of its options one can't do that.  There is not a single Detachment, in any codex, that allows for this.

 

Yes, yes there is.  That's the whole point that I'm making.  Every other release that has come out post-necron lets you use any of the units available in the codex in some fashion in their big "decurion" style detachment.  You may only be able to field one unit/model of it and have to pay a heavy formation tax, but it is still possible.  That's the whole point I'm making.  Go back and look at necron, eldar, SM, daemonkin, etc.  all of their 'decurion' formations have some way to field any unit in the codex to some capacity, and they pay a formation/unit tax to not make it abusable.  I'm not asking to have a lion's blade with 5 RW command squads.  But the ability to have black knights in there in some fashion should doable, even if i have to pay another 400 points in tax units to do so. 

 

Again we are the ONLY codex now that is unable to do this, asking for a way to use the available codex's units in some way into the codex's new main detachment is not trying to be unfluffy or being a cheesy player which is what you seem to be taking this as.  We just want the ability for the codex to work with itself, and omissions like this and obvious sloppy work on the DW and RW strike force shows this was not given the attention it deserves, This is not an unreasonable request for a product we are paying money for.

The problem I think is that everybody is reasonning with the old way of composing an army rather than the new way now.

 

I'll let aside unbound that nobody REALLY consider as a viable option for a simple reason : people need rules and limitations to have fun. When I play football I play 11vs11... I think that wouldn't be fun if suddently somebody says : let us play at 8 vs 12 and let everybody use their hands too...

 

BUT I think we should think about this new way to compose an army. It's all a way of faire trade.

 

Let's say I want an army with a half company + RW bikes and knights + DW knights

 

I can perfectly play

 

A half company with chaplain

+ A RW BF with one squad of knights and one squad of bikes

+ A DW BF with 2 squads of knights

 

What do I lose when I compare with a Lion's blade?

The GW will overwatch at BS3 rather than BS4... Is that REALLY such a big loss that makes our codex unplayable?

 

We must reasonning now with multiple formations army and stop thinking "I must have a formation that allows me to do evrything that I want" but rather "I can make evrything that I want because I play several formation"

[shabbadoo]

The problem I think is that everybody is reasonning with the old way of composing an army rather than the new way now.

That would seem to be the crux of the "problem." Get out of the old box people, and get into the new box! There's cool stuff in it! People are going to be fielding some very, very competitive Ravenwing lists in particular. People will work out the Dynamic Duo Squadron soon enough, among others, and see how all these little bits can be put together to do some very bad things to the enemy. The bikes didn't really get any better (with the exception of now having a grav option), but all of the other stuff got a boost- a big boost when it is used together in certain ways. And it is really easy to paint black, so we'll probably see a lot of Ravenwing now. And I really want a new vanilla bike kit done in the style of the updated Dark Vengeance starter set bikes which includes optional winged fairing, plus a small Ravenwing upgrade sprue with many shoulder pads, a few heads, a few chest plates, and another sword.

* One bit that people may have overlooked: Black Knight Huntmasters are now NOT limited to only taking a power sword or maul as an upgrade, but may now take a "power weapon"- axes and lances are now in (I need to build and magnetize two more arms now)!

[Ishagu]

I think it's really hard to paint black and make it look good :-P

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I think past the initial shock, in a couple of months everybody (well, most of the people anyone) will be very pleased with the new Codex. Soon people will realize the pluses will outweigh the minuses.

[shabbadoo]

I agree. There are really not a lot of minuses, just a few *important* glitches.

[Phaeton]

I think past the initial shock, in a couple of months everybody (well, most of the people anyone) will be very pleased with the new Codex. Soon people will realize the pluses will outweigh the minuses.

 

Totally agree. RW and GW are improved in so many ways.

[Wariax]

I have one question:

Why deathwing's terminators have to pay extra 10 pts for THSS?
They are already more expensvie than regular terminators due to they have some extra rules, like a:
-split fire,
-vengeful strike, or better overwatch.
But none of these rules make them better in combat.

Comparing that with regular terminators:
5x deathwing full THSS - 250 pts
5x regular terminators full THSS - 225 pts

Why?

ps.
Sorry for my english.
 

[Chaplain Lucifer]

DW terminators are fearless, that's one reason for the extra points cost. Another is that while you can take 5 TH&SS you can also take a heavy weapon, so you benefit from the DW shooting bonuses, there atually no reason not to take a heavy weapon (bar points limitation).

DW terminators are more flexible than their SM  Counterparts and they pay for that.

[shabbadoo]

The main reason is to keep things simple.  Codex: Space Marines Terminators have to pay the extra points for thunder hammer and storm shield too, regardless of what abilites their Chapter Tactics give them. Some Chapters will benefit, some will not.  So, field shooty Deathwing Terminators instead, pay less points for them, and use their abilities.

[Master Avoghai]

 

 

I think past the initial shock, in a couple of months everybody (well, most of the people anyone) will be very pleased with the new Codex. Soon people will realize the pluses will outweigh the minuses.

Totally agree. RW and GW are improved in so many ways.

My only fear is what GW will do with Tau. I sincerely hope they will not boost their (already strong) ignore cover potential...

[shabbadoo]

That's mot much of a concern for Deepstriking/regular Reserve Ravenwing units, as Tau don't have a buch of Intercpetor marker lights, so Ravenwing get to Jinkity Jink. Smart missle systems are the main worry, but they have a shorter range than most Ravenwing vehicle weapons do, and an AP value that allows everything else to take an armor save. Did I forget something more horrible that they have?

[Master Avoghai]

That's mot much of a concern for Deepstriking/regular Reserve Ravenwing units, as Tau don't have a buch of Intercpetor marker lights, so Ravenwing get to Jinkity Jink. Smart missle systems are the main worry, but they have a shorter range than most Ravenwing vehicle weapons do, and an AP value that allows everything else to take an armor save. Did I forget something more horrible that they have?

2 marker lights allow them to ignore cover...

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Can we shift the conversation away from the Tau? We can have an anti Tau thread tactica as soon as games with new Codex start rolling in. Also if they get a new Codex, is not a concern right now.

[Sinkable]

I have one question:

Why deathwing's terminators have to pay extra 10 pts for THSS?

They are already more expensvie than regular terminators due to they have some extra rules, like a:

-split fire,

-vengeful strike, or better overwatch.

But none of these rules make them better in combat.

 

Comparing that with regular terminators:

5x deathwing full THSS - 250 pts

5x regular terminators full THSS - 225 pts

 

Why?

 

ps.

Sorry for my english.

 

You're right, paying for 5x THSS Termies is silly. Especially when DW Knights are 15 points less!

 

If they give all HQ's with a bike the RW rule, and make pure DW possible, I would be over the moon over this dex. Still am as it is.

[CarbonBased]

If they give all HQ's with a bike the RW rule, and make pure DW possible, I would be over the moon over this dex. Still am as it is.

Dear Emperor, this is all I want for Christmas.

[Wariax]

DW terminators are fearless, that's one reason for the extra points cost. Another is that while you can take 5 TH&SS you can also take a heavy weapon, so you benefit from the DW shooting bonuses, there atually no reason not to take a heavy weapon (bar points limitation).

DW terminators are more flexible than their SM  Counterparts and they pay for that.

 

I'm afraid you are wrong. I mean, yes DW are fearless, but it's not worth 5 pts more per model (remember I'm still talking about THSS terminators). I think even just ATSFK is better than fearless in CC. Also when you have 5 THSS in 5 members squad you can't take any heavy weapons.

 

Also I could understand you if terminators were a gamebraker or just a good unit. But to be honest, they are just useless in overall, no matter what kind of weapons you'll choose. Even in casual games with beer.

 

 

 

The main reason is to keep things simple.  Codex: Space Marines Terminators have to pay the extra points for thunder hammer and storm shield too, regardless of what abilites their Chapter Tactics give them. Some Chapters will benefit, some will not.  So, field shooty Deathwing Terminators instead, pay less points for them, and use their abilities.

 

I could understand that if that upgrade will cost 5 pts not 10 pts.

In such case you have an option which is totally useless when you compare it with other units, just like with a DWK.

 

For me it looks like an author just take SM codex, make copy and paste and done....

[twopounder]

 

DW terminators are fearless, that's one reason for the extra points cost. Another is that while you can take 5 TH&SS you can also take a heavy weapon, so you benefit from the DW shooting bonuses, there atually no reason not to take a heavy weapon (bar points limitation).

DW terminators are more flexible than their SM  Counterparts and they pay for that.

 

I'm afraid you are wrong. I mean, yes DW are fearless, but it's not worth 5 pts more per model (remember I'm still talking about THSS terminators). I think even just ATSFK is better than fearless in CC. Also when you have 5 THSS in 5 members squad you can't take any heavy weapons.

 

Also I could understand you if terminators were a gamebraker or just a good unit. But to be honest, they are just useless in overall, no matter what kind of weapons you'll choose. Even in casual games with beer.

 

 

 

The main reason is to keep things simple.  Codex: Space Marines Terminators have to pay the extra points for thunder hammer and storm shield too, regardless of what abilites their Chapter Tactics give them. Some Chapters will benefit, some will not.  So, field shooty Deathwing Terminators instead, pay less points for them, and use their abilities.

 

I could understand that if that upgrade will cost 5 pts not 10 pts.

In such case you have an option which is totally useless when you compare it with other units, just like with a DWK.

 

For me it looks like an author just take SM codex, make copy and paste and done....

 

 

Nothing is useless in a pretzels and beer game. I take silly and nonsensical lists all the time just to mess around. You don't have to table your opponent every time you play. If you do... that's just sad.

 

It's been noted a hundred times over that deathwing are still broken and not competitive. They are slightly worse now than previously due to formation rules and point increase, but nothing much has changed. Their real power is the ability to all drop in at the same time without scattering and shoot the utter crap out of your opponent. Yes, their firepower is still limited, but it would also still suck to be on the receiving end of that.

 

Yes, they also buffed the crap out of ravenwing and you can take Sammael + 10 Dark Talons in an 1850 point game and wreck some stuff, but it's very far and away from codex: space marine. The formations are better, the units are better, and the rules are better.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I just want to point out that for those that played pure DW it's slightly worse. For those that used DW squads or played DW with RW/GW mix, then it is slightly better. Heck you don't even have to take Belial to play DW anymore! Huge point saving right there!!!

[FarFromSam]

I'm a bit uneducated when it comes to formations.  So, the demi company, it says units in this detachment have 2 special rules (1) fire overwatch at bs 3 and (2) have ob sec.

 

Does this mean the Assualt squads, Devs, and possibly the Dreds (transports included) have Ob sec?

 

Also, if I added, for example, a RW support Squad to the demi company.  Both would retain their unique bonuses, and gain the additional benefit of the "supreme fire discipline."  However, If I added the same RW support squad to a CAD they would gain their own unique bonuses, but no Supreme fire discipline?

[3DJutsu]

Correct, every unit in the Battle Demi-Company has ObjSec and BS3 overwatch.

 

As for your second point you would need a Lions Blade, in which the Demi-Co retains ObjSec, but your Aux units gain SFD. (Though still no ObjSec)

But using a CAD has no benefits outside giving troops ObjSec.