Crossover army Space Wolf-Imperial Guard

[Feyralwolf]

I've been bopping this idea around for a while on the Space Wolf forum (thread link to follow) and a few have pointed me over here.

 

My main idea ties into Space Wolf fluff, but the part that's concerning here is that I'm trying to mix the forces well.

 

Right now my main idea (and modeling challenge) is to make Rough Riders... on Wolves.

 

Any suggestions?  http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308278-wolf-brothers-and-10000-years-of-battle

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Some folks have kitbashed guardsmen and Orc Warg riders from the LotR Hobbit line of minis.

[walter h]

You might try Goblin, wolf riders from GW, fantasy.

[Emprah2508]

Maybe fenrisian wolves but they might be a bit small

edited for spelling mistakes

[WarriorFish]

It'd require a reasonable amount of GS, but you can chop and change some models to have them riding. You'd need to mod the wolves too so while possible it'd be quite a lot of work. It'd be very cool though.

[Feyralwolf]

I'm still completely new to the modification, and it's been years since I assembled or painted a kit (stupid Titanic... why could I not place you in the fishtank!  Yes I know it was because the paints were toxic and I hadn't figured out I could seal it).

 

The Fenrisian Wolves have been an idea I'm considering, but I would need to form a saddle like shape on them I think, as well as do some cut and glue work on the legs of the IG troops placed atop.  The Warg... I want to use them, but they don't have the right LOOK to them really.  For right now, I've ordered some Imperial Knights from the fantasy line (supposed to have an Order of the White Wolf bitz) and after looking over those, I'll make a call on things like keeping existing cavalry legs with IG torso, or something similar.

 

One of the things I've been working on as well is a few units from the IG Codex (I think it's a 6th edition), where the unit is composed of IG troops, but has an option to replace the Sergeant with a Space Marine (or the Tank Commander leads Leman Russ squadron from a Predator).

 

A little background (not sure how much of it is in the other thread).  Basic idea is that this group spends most of their time in the Warp, with some troops deployed and able to call in the rest if needed.  The Space Wolf contingent is mostly Wulfen (think... we... er... sort of werewolves that have gone feral, they don't show up many places), with a few others being around as well.  Some of the gear dates back to the Heresy, since the Chapter that partially spawned it was created and disbanded something like 109 years after the Heresy.

The bulk of the force is IG troops and gear (with a stress placed on quality of the gear issued and survivability), that were rescued from units left behind or that the rest of the force saved from annihilation.  I'm being somewhat picky with the selection of units and gear, for example, no flame weapons (I tend to think Wulfen and Fenrisian Wolves would react poorly to such weapons), and giving every trooper the chance to upgrade to Carapace Armor.

I've also said No to: Priests, Psychers and Commisar.  My reasoning being:

   Priests: The leader is from the Heresy Era, and was even alive for the chastisement of Logar, he follows the Imperial Truth and rejects the Imperial Cult (Allfather... ok... Fenrisians are weird like that)

   Psycher: Space Wolves have always seemed to dislike them, might have something to do with the experience of Burning Prospero (Thousand Son's homeworld)

   Commisar: Too brutal for what I'm looking for.  I want an army that fights because they believe in what they're fighting for.  If you don't believe, you have no place there, here's a world to be dropped on, good day.

 

Several times I've made choices that might seem odd, but I'm trying to work out the logic behind them all.  At the rate I'm going, within a year, I'll have a mock Codex ready (fluff and all).  I've also been exchanging e-mails with Games Workshop (US), and getting some pretty good quality responses that have helped me steer my work in a better direction.  I may think they're overpriced, but customer service hasn't steered me wrong!

 

Ok, before I go, here's another thing to think ok:

 

Custom unit(s):

 

Combat Engineers (8, must take: Engineering Chimera)

 

Basic idea is a group of 8 Guardsmen trained up to create things like slit trenches and rough and ready fortifications in the heat of battle.  The Chimera currently could sport: 'Backhoe' or other excavation equipment, Mine Sweeper or Mine Layer gear, or a Bridgelayer.  The part I'm trying to decide is if this makes sense for a force that's not happy at all on the defensive and strives to keep a very mobile style of warfare (Armored Fist basically, everything and I mean EVERYTHING has to be Cavalry, Fleet, or have a dedicated Transport).

 

Anyway, thoughts on that long bit of ramble?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

It's not bad, I don't use priests because it goes against my fluff. I use commissars because there are some that can fit in. Making balanced custom units is difficult, instead of an 8 man unit, why not just use demo vets?

[Feyralwolf]

8 man unit was done because I dropped the Lasgun Arrays and some of the Transport Capacity of the Chimera, the unit works and is transported by that vehicle, thus needs to fit the vehicle.

[Pudelhund]

Can Space Wolves use Leman Russ tanks?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Custom unit(s):

 

Combat Engineers (8, must take: Engineering Chimera)

 

Basic idea is a group of 8 Guardsmen trained up to create things like slit trenches and rough and ready fortifications in the heat of battle.  The Chimera currently could sport: 'Backhoe' or other excavation equipment, Mine Sweeper or Mine Layer gear, or a Bridgelayer.  The part I'm trying to decide is if this makes sense for a force that's not happy at all on the defensive and strives to keep a very mobile style of warfare (Armored Fist basically, everything and I mean EVERYTHING has to be Cavalry, Fleet, or have a dedicated Transport).

 

Using the modern engineers as a model, the mine sweeper makes sense. I'd assume a rotating flail drum, but we use rocket launched strings of explosives to clear minefields now. In order to lay mines, typically you'll see FASCAM, or cluster munitions used to lay the mines, but mines are really a defensive tool. They can be employed offensively (claymores used in ambushes), but normally standard anti-personnel mines are employed to defend fixed positions (like Guantanamo Bay). The Bridgelayer would be used by combat engineers, but it's not a vehicle that you'd see near a battle. 

 

In fact, engineers are usually only seen near the fight when something big needs to be blown up. Route clearance is usually done with explosives, even back in WW2.

 

Can Space Wolves use Leman Russ tanks?

 

They used to could back in 3rd edition.

[Azzagorn]

I actually can't wait to see this conversion.

[Feyralwolf]

The conversions (three different ones based on the vehicles) are mostly in the notes stage.  They don't even really fit the army well, but are an idea that kicked into my head.

 

I did managed to dig up some models I could buy for the Bridgelayer (wrong scale, but workable), I also was reading over the old rules for mines (3rd edition maybe), where a Dozer Blade was used to clear them.  I was thinking more the old rotating drum chain-flail style detonator.  Mine layer... no idea how I'd do that yet.  Excavation would be a O scale backhoe minus the tracks placed atop a Chimera.  Ideally I'd use one that's of a 1950s or so design, boxy and ugly looking... form follows function after all!  Something like this, or even more blocky and 'industrial' looking 

 

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/tractors/images/8/8e/Old_excavator.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110824150006

 

As to the Leman Russ Tanks, the bulk of this force are Guardsman, they can use those tanks, and there's nothing preventing them from using a Predator if it was made available to them (and they were trained on it).

[Vel'Cona]

I believe SW had access to the Leman Russ Exterminator back in 3rd/4th, as a tribute of sorts to their Primarch. Later codices took this away because character is frowned upon in modern Astartes interpretations (read: Codex: Blood Angels).

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

You know, I had the idea for allied armies way back when I started in 3rd edition (I probably wasn't the only one) I'm surprised it took 3 editions to finally implement. I kinda wish I had started space wolves back then.

[Feyralwolf]

The big difference is that I'm not talking about allied armies, this a single force that has drawn from what's available.  You will have Regimental Commanders giving orders to Adeptus Astartes, because that's how the command chain works here.  I'm specifically stressing some viewpoints that I like, for example I fully expect to implement the Look out Sir! Arghhhh... special rule to the whole of the battle force, because I want to stress cooperation, value of life, etc.  Life is hard, but that doesn't mean it's to be thrown away.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

The automatic look out sir rule will be difficult to implement army wide, it's a body guard rule. You'd be better off having the ability to take some adeptus astartes as bodyguards. As for Regimental commanders issuing orders to astartes, that's going to be a very had sell. The Astartes are already though opponents, boosting them with orders would be disgusting to see across the table. I think you should keep the orders to the IG component of the army. That will preserve the balance. 

 

I applaud your efforts, but there's a lot of game breaking stuff you're trying to do (I don't think it's intentional), both here and on the space wolves side. Rules from oder edition codecies and sourcebooks, don't translate well to newer editions.

 

Having an army that has strong armored vehicles, strong infantry (even few of them), monstrous creatures, beasts, and the ability to boost itself in the psychic phase (I'm assuming you plan on using rune priests, as they aren't psykers per se) and in the shooting phase with a simple leadership test is very unbalanced. You've got a bit of everything, and there's a reason that the armies don't do that. 

 

Allies are a thing now, and you are going to be hard-pressed to find anyone that will agree to play against a completely custom list that is drawn from 4 or 5 books, half of which haven't been valid for 4 editions. Don't try to reinvent the wheel. 

 

This is ambitious, and I'm not saying don't try to build an army that plays the way you want, but allies make this sort of thing much easier. Honestly, the wulfen can be represented by thunderwolf cavalry rules on the tabletop, just use a custom model for them. 

 

Go ahead and build it, and then let us see it. You have to build in some weaknesses, or you'l just have a collection of models that sit on a shelf. 

[Feyralwolf]

*facepalm* Orders... not IG style, as in issuing orders like where and when to attack.  I'm mixing fluff and crunch here.

 

In other words, if a Space Marine is attached to an Infantry Squad, would get the orders they would and be affected.  But I meant orders in that the GENERAL tells the MAJOR what to do, doesn't matter if the Major can kick the General's ass.

 

As to the bodyguard rule globally, I did mean only the Sergeant or similar officer in a squad.  I'm still testing out the ideas, not trying to break the game.  And all of this is revolving around the idea that this group is still trying to live that Great Crusade ideal, what Mankind was supposed to be, elevated up, not thrown down.

 

As to Rune Priests, in the latest codex they were made as powerful as normal Psykers, but I'm winnowing the list of things they can pull from.  They get access to about 4 lists as well as a Space Wolf one.  I'm cutting it to something like 1/2 of 2 lists and the Space Wolf one.

 

The Monstrous Creature... is a Lord of War.  Point invalid.

The Strong Infantry... have NO BS rating.  Weakness... they cannot SHOOT YOU.

Strong Armored Vehicles... as with the Space Marines replacing Sergeants, it's Imp Guard backed by a leader in something better.

 

I am building in weaknesses.  I'm pulling old things back only when they fit the mood I think should work, and even then, I'm keeping them at the level they used to be at.  Best of two worlds, maybe.  The majority of the troops are general Imperial Guards, offered the chance to buy Carapace Armor and better weapons, but otherwise, they're still the squishies.  I've even pulled many armored designs that don't fit the theme.  What's every infantryman's friend?  Artillery, and the IG has it in spades.  This group has almost NO artillery.

 

No Imperial Guard Psykers, no Hellhounds (or Variants), No IG artillery (from Basilisk to Wyvern, it's not there).  No Ogryn, no Ratlings...  By using the Armored Fist style, I even up the cost of the army.  Everything has to have a dedicated transport, and IG transports are expensive for what they do.  In almost all cases, I took the Space Wolves (or Space Marine) item, and if I kept it, it became the 'commander' of a squadron.

 

The biggest weaknesses are that almost every single Space Wolf unit, is a melee unit ONLY.  There are a few Space Marines scattered about, but they won't have most of the stuff that makes them dangerous, no Chapter Orders for example.  Heck, the only way to deploy the Wulfen is to either use a Lord of War, or Drop Pods.  One limits them to Apocolypse games, the other allows for them to be killed before hitting play.

[Feyralwolf]

Tentative Army List:

 

Required 2 HQ, 2 Troop, 1 Fast Attack

Optional: 4 HQ, 4 Troop, 3 Fast Attack, 3 Elites, 2 Heavy Support, 2 Lord of War

 

HQ:

  Uljarl the Undieing (Dreadnought Wolf Priest)

  Helfrost & Morkai (Iron Priest on Cybersteed)

  Wolf Priest

  Archmagos Quintien Thull

  Tech Priest

  Rune Priest (Character version in works)

  Tank Commander (Character version in works)

  Company Command Squad

 

Troops:

  Infantry Platoon

    Platoon Command Squad

    Infantry Squad

    Heavy Weapon Squad

    Special Weapon Squad

    Recruits (Penal Legion renamed)

  Wulfen (May only be deployed via Drop Pods or 'The Cave')

  Veterans

 

Elite:

  Lone Wolf

  Scouts/Wolf Scouts

  Space Marine

  Combat Engineers (likely being cut)

  Contemptor Parrern Dreadnought (Wulfen, deployed only via drop pod)

  Stormtroopers

 

Fast Attack:

  Storm Eagle Assault Gunship

  Fire Raptor Gunship

  Valkyrie

  Vendetta

  Thunderwolf Cavalry (Wulfen, debating)

  Rough Riders

  Fenrisian Wolves

 

Heavy Support:

  Leman Russ Tank

  Predator

  Whirlwind

  Achilles Pattern Land Raider

  Hydra

  Stalker (debating)

  Spartan Assault Tank

 

Transports:

  Rhino (debating)

  Chimera

  Taurox Prime

  Drop Pod

 

Lords of War:

  Fjord the Bane Wolf (see other thread for old version)

  Fellblade Super Heavy Tank

  Malcador Assault Tank (likely being removed)

  The Cave (Modified Storm Lord)

  Falchion Super Heavy Tank Destroyer

  Thunderhawk  (possible removal)

  Thunderhawk Transport (possible removal)

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

*facepalm* Orders... not IG style, as in issuing orders like where and when to attack.  I'm mixing fluff and crunch here.

 

The Monstrous Creature... is a Lord of War.  Point invalid.

The Strong Infantry... have NO BS rating.  Weakness... they cannot SHOOT YOU.

Strong Armored Vehicles... as with the Space Marines replacing Sergeants, it's Imp Guard backed by a leader in something better.

 

First thing I need to address, is the tone of your entire post. The whole thing sounded like you were frustrated with my post. I'm not in your mind, I don't know these things unless you communicate them effectively. so I pulled the things I really wanted to address so we'll go it in order.

 

1) Orders, I misunderstood what you were trying to get at, you meant generally and I was already thinking about the crunch. Point taken.

 

2) Monstrous Creature, Just because you make him a lord of war, doesn't make my point invalid. You can name on one finger how many imperial armies have a monstrous creature, grey knights, and only because they were given special snowflake status by Matt Ward.

 

3) I thought you were including some power armored dudes in your army, which means 3+ saves, which can be a tough nut to crack. Personally, I don't believe wulfen should be a troops choice, elites or fast attack maybe, but not troops.

 

4) AV-14 is AV-14, and IG can get 15 of them in a list, and they're relatively cheap. Sorry, but I think you're missing the overall balance.

 

Here I'll lay it out:

 

Tau- Have monstrous creatures, only 1 the riptide, it has a big gun, and they have no vehicles over AV-12.

 

Grey Knights- Have AV-14 land raiders, and a Monstrous creature, they are expensive, and they are hilariously low model count. 

 

Tyranids - Have tons of MC's, but no armor at all, they have very short range, their heavies hit at max 36". 

 

Eldar - Fast and squishy, one MC to the lot, and a GC as a LoW. They are a glass cannon though.

 

Dark Eldar - Same as eldar, though missing the MC and GC (They may have MC's I can't recall) but they have tons of beasts, and other boosts.

 

I think you can see the pattern. you are taking AV-14 tanks (Russes), a MC(LoW as he is), PA infantry (I don't know how many though it seems you want them as a Sgt upgrade), wulfen, Some of the best aircraft in the game, and 2 units of cavalry (as of this writing). 

 

You have all of this stuff, and you're not exactly blending the two together. I have a suggestion though, play them as allies first. Get a feel for how they are supposed to work together, before you go trying to get someone to play against your custom codex. Otherwise you're going to have a list that he can't break, and just steamrolls anything without the use of tactics, it's going to get boring.

 

This game isn't just about rolling dice and moving models. You have to understand tactics, and how your army works together. Each unit has to provide something different from another unit. 

 

There's a reason why Matt Ward stopped writing codecies (Aside from longer being with the company). The only balanced book he wrote was the 5e Necrons, everything else was over powered (Blood Angels, C:SM, Grey Knights). You need to find a balance in your army, and lacking shooting isn't enough. 

 

I'm trying to help you, you've got to look from the opponent's perspective when designing these things, because someone might decide to play their own version of this army using your "codex". 

 

I'll give you an example of a list I ran against an opponent:

 

CotGW detachment

 

Rune Priest

2 Dreads

9 Grey hunters with 2 melta guns and WGPL (10 overall) in pod

1 TWC unit (3 men, PM/SS)

15 Blood claws in a LRC

2 FA Drop pods

 

Scion CAD

2 Command squads with melta

2 9 man Scion squads with plasma

2 Valkyries

 

I almost tabled the opponent by turn 2, my TWC and dreads having run roughshod over the infantry on his left flank. I put down 2 drop pods with one CS and Scion squad, and absolutely ate the infantry on his right, I had stripped all but one HP off Pask, and utterly left his force in ruins by the end of turn 1. My LRC was tough for him to destroy as he had only a battlecannon on the table turn 1. With fast, aggressive tactics, I had him defeated, he surrendered turn 3. The game could have gone on, but we both agreed that it would drag on. I felled a vendetta with melta guns from a CS, the other with a dread (shot it up a bit then assaulted it while he was hovering). 

 

That should illustrate just how brutal a combined Guard and Space Wolves force can be. I didn't even have any Special Characters.  Just want you to think about the balance, you've combined the biggest strengths of two good armies, and it's likely to be a bit over powered, and you need to think more about how to tone that down. 

[Feyralwolf]

Project on indefinite hold/scrapped.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I wasn't trying to get you to scrap the project entirely, just to think about the balance, it might just take a bit longer. I had to re think my whole codex idea, and find a decent starting place (I ended up using Elysians as a base and then adding the units I wanted, and adjusting points costs to be in line with the comparable units in C:AM). 

 

Don't give up, just think about some of the things that we've said, to give you a bit of balance, every army has some compromise to it, and has a theme that should be considered.

[Feyralwolf]

Your intention is irrelevant, though I know it was not your intention to derail this.  I started this project because it interested me and was fun.  It has ceased to be both.  I will not waste time creating something that I don't enjoy creating and that seems doomed to failure.  Thus, project is scrapped.

[WarriorFish]

I think that maybe your plan was too grand in scope too soon. I think it would be better to work on the cool model stuff first and worry about rules and whatnot later. After all rules can be changed easily so aren't that important but getting a model how you like is much more work!

[Feyralwolf]

The problem Fish, is that while I can work words and numbers well (and I've talked with a few enthusiasts who saw the datasheets I was putting together and the fluff... all longhand on paper, nothing digital yet who loved it), I have not assembled any models in close to two decades.  I already know the first few will be (colorful metaphor deleted), But I'm still gonna try.  However the fluff encourages the model and vice versa.

Example:

 

I decided to make a 'character' Stormlord as part of the force table.  Very few changes off the normal rules (pulled the Heavy Stubbers, put on two sets of Sponsons instead of just one), and then decided it was the main way of deploying Wulfen except for Drop Pods.  Called it 'The Cave' and was looking over the model trying to decide how to work that.  Final idea was to get modeling material for mountains from a model trail store and literally craft a cave on the back of it (stacks for the engine and such things sticking from the top).

 

Might never have the skill to make it, but it would be interesting to use if I did.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Well, you've back burnered the project, but everything is cyclical. You'll probably come back to it, and it'll be fun and interesting again, and you'll have a different perspective on it. That'll serve you well, and I'm sure that your next attempt will be better. 

 

Don't let anything stand in the way of enjoying the hobby. As for the stormlord, it sounds cool, why not try building the cave part separately, getting the process down, before you go and try to convert the $140 model. That way you have practice and have a concept of how you're going to accomplish it. I'm sure there are tons of tutorials online you can find, maybe start with  a scenery tutorial?

 

This hobby is very much an artistic outlet, and that sort of makes all of us artists. Artists are always their own harshest critics. I don't think my painting skills are great, and before a year ago I hadn't assembled or painted a model since 3rd edition, and I'm receiving compliments on my work from folks who've been at it a lot longer than I. 

 

Don't get discouraged, we don't want to see anyone leave the hobby, Just give it some time. Maybe try to get a feel for the current edition, and what the state of the game is, before trying again.

 

And a quick word on the allies thing, nothing stops you from sticking a Space Wolf HQ in a guard squad, or putting that squad in a Space Wolf or IG transport. In 7th edition most transports end up in the FA section, so you can take them alone for just that purpose. So you can have a guard squad in a rhino if you want, or put a Special Weapons Squad or heavy weapons squad or Stormtrooper Squad in a Razorback, and run them around. 

 

There are some restrictions, but maybe you can use that as a starting point when you come back to this project.