Crossover army Space Wolf-Imperial Guard

[WarriorFish]

The longer you leave it the harder it gets right? So why not get cracking on some models, even if they're standard ones that don't feature any of your rules customisations? A bolter Marine and lasgun Guardsman always have a place so you can't go far wrong building and painting some :) Plus I'd wager building some models might also give you some nice ideas as well.

 

Everyone starts somewhere, even if that's getting back on the bike again after a long time. What matters is that you keep trying to improve :tu:

[Feyralwolf]

I have a growing collection (been turning in good Magic the Gathering cards to a shop and using store credit to get models).

 

Once the next order comes in, then I'll start looking at painting.  I have a mix of things, from the Stormlord (which has almost useless instructions), to a Chimera and a Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf.

 

Biggest thing is finding just what to use.  I've already decided on a Pre-Heresy Space Wolf basis for the pain on everyone.  Though non-armored sections will be more varied.  I'm rather disappointed with the most recent Space Wolf Codex, they lost a lot of the unique and WOLF feel to them.  Reading though rules has been annoying, but been working at it.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

They did lose some things, but 7th is reaching back to 2nd and 3rd editions for list building, making things less complicated, which means less book keeping (which I like, since I my memory is terrible). 

 

Guard was never a really character driven army, in the same way as Space Wolves. Space Wolves got a lot less cumbersome to play with the 7th edition rules, and if you really want some of that flavor back, use the Champions of Fenris Supplement (the Company of the Great Wolf is a fantastic detachment and meshes well with Guard). 

 

The loss of the Wolfy trinkets actually gives you more freedom with your fluff. For Instance my Space Wolves are more Norse themed than Wolf themed. Sure I have Thunderwolf Cavalry and wolf pelts and Fenrisian wolves and that stuff, but they are, for all intents and purposes a Successor chapter (A Great Company being split off after being lost and replaced on the Great Annulus) 

 

The 7th edition Codecies give you a huge amount of freedom with your fluff. 

 

For a force similar to yours I'd suggest maybe using this:

 

Company of the Great Wolf: (1 HQ, 2 Elites minimum) (you gain +1 WS for all Wolf Guard, Terminator Wolf Guard, and Thunderwolf Cavalry)

 

HQ

Wolf Lord in Runic Armor with Fenrisian Wolves, on a Thunderwolf mount (could be your wulfen lord or a regular thunderlord your choice)

 

Elites

2 Wolf Guard squads, and/or 2 iron priests on thunderwolves (more wulfen)

 

Fast Attack

Thunderwolf Cavalry (these can be thunderwolf cavalry or your wulfen squads) take as many as you like.

Fenrisian Wolves (as many as you want)

Rhino Transports

Razorback Transports

Stormwolf Transport

 

Heavy support

Whatever you want

 

Lord Of War

Logan Grimnar on stormrider (he's a vicious beatstick) (and since he's all but a monstrous creature he could be the rules you use for the big bad wulfen lord)

 

Guard Combined Arms Detachment

 

HQ

Company Command Squad, or Tank Commander

 

Elites

Militarum Tempestus Platoon (as many and as big as you want them) and/or Ogryns/Bullgryns (you could make them Fenrisian Ice trolls or something, or just Ogryns)

 

Troops

2 Vet Squads in chimeras or 2 mech platoons

 

FA

Rough Riders

Valkyries and Vendettas and Vultures

sentinels if you want them

 

Heavy Support

Tanks and artillery, whatever you want

 

Lord of War

All the Superheavy tanks, pick one and profit

 

Kit the Space wolves for Close combat, since that's where you seemed to want them, and with CotGW you get up to 4 HQ slots, so grab a few cheap Wolf Guard Battle leaders and sink them into guard squads, or take 4 wolf guard battle leaders and do the same, making your Guard company commander the warlord. 

 

It's entirely possible to use the concept, Allies are just a mechanism to draw one army from multiple codecies, so we can make whatever our imaginations can dream up. You just have to decide what units you want to use, and build the army around it. 

 

This is pretty much the same concept that I used for my Guard force when designing my custom codex. 

[Feyralwolf]

I already scrapped the idea, maybe I'll toy with it again later.  Even so, what you listed is nothing like what I was thinking, I was wanting an army that's made up mostly of IG, with the backing of some powerful Characters.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I was just throwing out some stuff you might take, not stuff you had to take. I'm only trying to be helpful, but do as you will.

[Feyralwolf]

This project is not longer entertaining enough to pursue, the idea seems unworkable so I'm shelving it.  Looking back, on both the Space Wolf and IG forums, the bulk of responses have been from you, thus this has ended up rather repetitive and not allowed the influx of ideas and opinions I'd hoped for.

 

Warhammer... does not have game balance, which makes it rather difficult to attempt to instill game balance into it when utilizing different factions/editions.  That's why Bloodthirsters are 210 points and people seem to think that's perfectly fine despite their overwhelming power.  I get the feeling sometimes that the guys putting together the stat blocks have borrowed their formula for point cost from Abdul Alhazred (look him up if you're not familiar).

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

That wasn't supposed to sound passive aggressive. I just don't want you to have the impression that we're hostile to your ideas, we hate to see people go, and we'd like to see what you come up with for your army (whatever form it might take). 

 

I see what you're saying. I only today learned about the disgusting pile of rage inducing heresy that is the bloodthirster(I have never faced one). Now that I know what it is, and that I don't know how to bring it down or stop it. Depending on which one you take it ranges from 250-300 points (according to Khorne Daemonkin), so I don't know where you're getting the 210 points from (perhaps the 6th ed Chaos Daemons codex? I don't have one). Again there are 3 blootdthirsters in Khorne Daemonkin, and each one is slightly different. I don't want to see one across the table, though getting in rapid fire and popping Bring it Down! on 2 squads and throwing buckets of dice at it with rerolling wounds might do the trick. Add the fact that you can get 2 in a CAD list, and even more in a Blood Host because it's an HQ choice, makes it that much more hateful.

 

Suddenly your MC LoW doesn't seem so bad... 

 

As for your point on Warhammer not having any game balance, it does, it's just bad, and they don't seem to playtest (It's evident from how quickly they need to FAQ new productions). GW just can't seem to leave well enough alone. Hopefully we get a nice long period of sporadic releases of supplementary material, so we're not constantly buying stuff for a flawed system, and GW will get the kinks worked out. 

[Feyralwolf]

210 might have been me reading something else.  Thinking on it, that might have been Bran Redmaw's cost.  But yes, I picked up the White Dwarf issue that had those abominations in it and... ugh.  One of them has a friggin' Destroyer weapon.  Not to mention 10s on BS and WS on most of them (even if I don't recall seeing shooting weapons on two of them).

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

It could be worse, in fact it can be, it has to be unbound and taking nothing but bloodthirsters, which would cause me to :cuss myself out of rage. It would be really cool to see a diorama of the force you had envisioned, as that's always a possibility. In fact I may do that myself, I just need some suitable terrain...

[walter h]

You should stay. Keep working on your concept. I'm sure that the more you work on it the more guard will pay attention and speak up. You should show some pics .

[Feyralwolf]

There's no pics to show.  None of the models I have are assembled, let alone painted.  Stupid idea keeps itching at the back of my brain...

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

If it's an itch... Maybe you need to scratch it. If it's really irking you, maybe we should talk it out.

 

I was talking 5th ed with a friend and it actually got me thinking about ways to accomplish the things you were looking for. Maybe take a squad like grey hunters (which you wanted listed as elites IIRC) and making them akin to the 5th ed power armor wolf guard (buy the squad, then split them up at deployment and insert them into the squads you want them in). You'd also have your HQ slots, maybe make rune priests and/or wolf priests part of an HQ "formation" (like the 5th ed Necron Royal court, purchase them with the top HQ choice and split them up at deployment). 

 

You could do Thunderwolf cavalry (just make it a unit of 1-3 rather than 3-6) much the same way as the grey hunters and HQ war council ideas, take it and split them off as character "upgrades" to rough rider units. 

 

Wulfen as troops seems odd to me, but if you make some custom profiles (taking the base eye of terror wulfen and scaling it for 7th edition, since I don't remember what all transfers), they could be very balanced for a troops choice (I'm thinking no more than S6 T4 A3 with a 4+ save and making them beasts with either AP3 or rending) with a Thunderwolf rider for a character to "herd" them. 

 

I had almost forgotten about these mechanics from 5th ed, since I haven't used those rules for a while now, and talking about them made me realize that there were old mechanics that might work for your concept. 

 

Feel free to disregard this, if you're that dead set on shelving the project, but you said you had an itch, I thought I'd help you try to scratch it.

[Feyralwolf]

I've noted somewhere else, Wulfen show up in Apocalypse (5th I think, and I used those stats, only applying the 5th edition Mark of the Wulfen, since it seems stupid that the ability would give more to someone suffering from it than a full on Wulfen (IE D6+1 attacks instead of the old 3+1 being base 3 and both getting +1 for two close combat).

 

I've been reading over Allied Detachments and they could not work at all for the way this has been shaping up (no Lord of War in the Allied for example).

 

The Upgrade has been the idea from the start, Wulfen and Thunderwolf Cavalry (which would have Mark of the Wulfen (IE be Wulfen) if independant unit, or a normal one if bought as an upgrade for Rough Riders).

 

Hence why I listed Predators, but only as an 'upgrade' for the Tank Commander to take for a Lemun Russ formation (might have made more sense to put Land Raider there).

 

I've been limiting the weapon choices, and unit choices when I was working it up.  No Sentinals, no Ratlings, no Ogryn.  The fluff reason for most of it?  Fjord is trying to create that 'Imperium of Man', in other words Astartes are tools and weapons, Men must carry the day, bring out Monsters like Fjord and Astartes to destroy Monsters, but then put them back on the shelf.  Hence why IG was to be the bulk of the faction.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Mark of the wulfen is fun, and if you want to use it fine it's your rules, but let me pose this to you: A grey hunter with MotW, got 1 attack base plus 1 for BP/CCW, plus 1 from MotW, and then and additional 1-6 for the d6 on MotW, and then 1 for charging (counterattack). That's anywhere from 5-11 rending attacks on the charge at S4 AP-, not bad; but look at a BP/CCW TWC guy, 4 attacks base, + 1 for 2 CCW, plus 1 for charging (counterattack), that's 6 guaranteed rending attacks at S5 AP-, it's a bit better quality, add a frost weapon or 2 WC, and you go to S6 AP3 and with the claws you get shred. The quality of your melee is better that way.

 

So using that as a basis, take TWC and take away the rider by making them beasts (still giving you a 12 inch move, and adding fleet, IIRC), leaving you with S4 T4 A4 eliminate the BS and leave the claws, you go down to S5 AP3 on the melee drop the 3+ armor for a 4+ or 5+ (depending on how you want to balance that) and you have a pretty nasty melee unit, leave it with 2 wounds, and add rage, and furious charge (both of which suit wulfen fine) giving you back your S6, and giving you an extra attack on the charge making it 7, and I think that's better mathematically than relying on the chance that you'll end up with minimal attacks at lower strength.

 

In the end it's up to you and I look forward to seeing what you come up with, but the current edition is all about streamlining things, so you have less book keeping to do.

 

As for the idea of using monsters to fight monsters is very valid, and since you'd stated that these men were supposed to be remnants from the heresy era, Ratlings and Ogryns didn't exist (IIRC) so that's understandable. But why no sentinels? It's a vehicle that's supposed to take heavier weapons into places that tanks can't go.

 

I also don't understand why you'd want a predator as an "upgrade" for a tank commander. The Predator loses 1 AV front, and 2 on the side to the Russ, and it's weapons aren't nearly as devastating as the Russ. You lose a full 2 feet of range and large blasts or armorbane (for the two most commonly used Russ tanks). The Land Raider doesn't even compare to the Russ as a tank. I'm just curious as to your reasoning, the only benefit the predator has is that it's not heavy, and it's cheaper, but trading a battlecannon for an autocannon is not a good trade in my eyes. A Full on Las Pred costs 5 points more than a Vanquisher, and the vanquisher is a better anti-tank platform due to armorbane (2d6 for armor pen). The land raider is just a big metal box to put something in, now you could make that your wulfen transport with the tank commander, that's and idea, but as far as Tanks go, the Guard tanks are hands down better options than the Space Marine Tanks. 

 

Now I don't know how you feel about Hellhounds, Devil Dogs, and Bane Wolves, but you've got some good options there to consider too, and even then, they're better than a predator despite the weaker armor of the chimera chassis. 

 

Just some food for thought.

[Feyralwolf]

I had included the Predator as an idea before I looked it over and rejected the idea

 

And... I have no idea what you meant with half those acronyms.  I sort of like the randomness of the D6+1, and was debating the idea of an 'Alpha' Wulfen that could have some sense and perhaps use Wolf Claws.  Thunderwolf Cavalry as Wulfen is also something I'm toying with.  The main reason for including Wulfen is that I really like the idea, and because they would be the remnants of a chapter that was disbanded for mutation.  In other words, these are the ones Fjord deemed to be mutated in line with the Canis Helix.

 

Removed from list, and reason:

 

Sentinals: Still debating, but they just strike me wrong, not sure why.

Banewolf/Hellhound: No chemical weapons, and no flamers.  One strikes me as wrong sense of honor wise, and the flames seem a bad idea with Wulfen

All the IG Artillery: Too slow, too open, too squishy.  Tactics for this force are going to revolve around keeping moving, hence why everyone (except a very select group) have to be Cavalry or have Dedicated Transports

Psykers: Burning of Prospero... (note that Rune Priests and Astropaths would be exempt, even Navigators)

Priests (IG): He's working off the Imperial Truth, they preach worship of a God.

Commisar: Might reinclude (or replace with Space Marine with same duties), but I want these men to rise and fall on merit, not on fear

Ogryn and Ratlings: Mutants, though he might accept Ratlings, just doesn't feel right.

 

The damned itch in my head is getting worse... to the point where I started modifying the Allied Detachment rules to make sense for this.  Basically adding 2 formation ideas that would be on a Reserve until the Company Commander called them in.

 

Hour of the Wolf: Fjord, The Cave, up to 4 Wulfen Packs (one must have a Wolf Priest, remainder must have an Alpha) and up to three Thunderwolf Cavalry (Wulfen) packs

 

Rain of the Wolf: Up to 3 Contempotor Dreadnought (wulfen, one may be upgraded to the Character version), may include Fjord, up to 5 Drop Pods with Wulfen Packs (one must have a Wolf Priest, remainder must have an Alpha)

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Ok, so you're fine with Devil Dogs (it's a melta cannon tank ,so not really flame), and most of the other stuff is removed for thematic reasons, which is understandable. 

 

Just a few things to keep in mind:

 

Armored Sentinels- One of the few sources IG has for plasma cannons, and they're a good support platform, and they're dirt cheap.

Commissars - They were preceded by the Discipline masters in the Horus Heresy, pretty much the same job, minus the religious zeal.

 

As for the Wulfen dreads, maybe look at murderfang, just make it not a character and there you go, don't reinvent the wheel with the Contemptor (unless you really want the contemptor, but I don't see any advantages of that over murderfang). 

[WarriorFish]

It's a common misconception that commissars are only about the bolt pistol. As Ulrik said they're primarily there to keep the troops effective as a fighting force. This is part maintaining discipline and part leading by example - the bolt pistol is a last resort. It'd be easy to modify their role to suit yours or have a form of counts as :)

[Feyralwolf]

I picked the Contemptor because I found a datasheet for a Space Wolf one with some interesting Sagas circa 5th Ed.  Though I did a bit of blending between Murderfang and the Contemptor (which is pricey to get from Forge World).

 

Commisar, I hear your point and will think over, and the Devil Dogs... I'll think on.

 

Sentinels I'm still debating, though I have been looking at the idea of offering the IG troops much better gear, as in everyone getting the chance to buy Carapace armor.  Still going back and forth on a lot of the stuff since it could be overpowered, could be normal.

 

I want this to be something strange in a sense, I want a lot of characters, I like the 'Wolfy' things like the Sagas and such... And at the same time, it's about the 'common man' doing his duty.  The real thing that has me thinking is that I want this to have a narrative, so if I did write a 'codex' it might be pretty damned heavy on fluff, while still having all the datasheets needed.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Another point about the commissar, all leadership tests his unit takes are done on his leadership value. So you have to roll crappier than a 9 leadership (which is what your typical space marine squad has for leadership, with a veteran Sgt). The only auto-blam! is psykers perils-ing which since you are not going to put a commissar anywhere near your expensive rune priest (fluff says rune priests aren't psykers, crunch says otherwise). He's pretty solid.

 

As for your common man theme, I like it. Space Marines are exceptional because they were created that way, Guardsmen are exceptional because they were born that way. when I read that part of your post, my mind read it as they're common men in the same way that US Army Rangers are common men. They push harder, go longer, and don't stop until the mission is done, but at the end of the day they're still just human. It's one reason I play stormtroopers, because I see them as operators to the Guardsmen's infantry, and not ridiculous like space marines.

 

The sagas on the contemptor are intriguing, but very restricting. The contemptor's unique stuff aside from that (Dual DCCW's for instance) make up for the trade-offs, IMO. I don't own a contemptor, and while I'd like to have one, it's not critical for me so I'll be content with murderfang for now.

 

I'm happy to see that your idea is starting to take more form, I guess we had a failure to communicate. I'm intrigued to see where this goes, and we're here to help.

[Feyralwolf]

The view point of the 'Every Man' system is inimical to the 40K universe, and that's why I want to do it.  Here you have a 'super man', an 'Angel of Death' who has made a point of not only seeking out those who fall and laying them to rest, but of elevating the common man, teaching them and arming them.  An Astartes is as a squad or company of regular troops in the fluff, but in the crunch, not so much.

 

Here though you have a truely ancient warrior, doing what he can to preserve the Allfather's ideal.  It might not be one he shared in the begining, but in the end, it's what he's bringing to bear.

 

So for the gear, I'm trying to keep it simple in a sense, tossing in designs that date back to the Heresy that might never be seen save for under the command on an Astartes force, and rare even then.  That's one reason I'm thinking to limit things like Sentinels, which I see as far more labor intensive to maintain than a tank would be. The few Astartes with him will lead and teach, support and protect, but the true battle must always be that of the man against the universe.  Only in those cases where the odds are too uneven, where the forces arrayed against men are too powerful and too deamonic, should the monsters be called forth.  In simple terms, Fjord is trying to build a world/system that has no place for him.  So far I'm debating if they might even have a world, one that is curiously absent from the rolls of the Imperium.  There are places out there it's possible they could have colonized and over 10,000 years build a utopia of sorts.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I can see where you're coming from. I guess I'm partial to sentinels, because they fit my theme (Airborne/Air Assault/Mountain troops, need something that can go where infantry goes).

[Feyralwolf]

We all have those units we love, and those we hate.  That's one reason that I'm building this idea the way I am.  I love the Wulfen... and hate most of the immobile and clunky artillery for instance.  I want speed and maneuverability.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Are you planning on using Valkyries or Vendettas? Best air units in the game as far as I'm concerned, they're on the cheapish side, come in squadrons, and can carry 12 models unrestricted, they can grav chute  their payload out, so you don't have to drop to hover, and their weapons payload is really good. 

 

I on the other hand, find that the immobile artillery works for my theme, as it's the sort of thing that easily deployed by air, and so are sentinels. I've also included some close combat oriented stuff, like giving stormtroopers their pistol and CCW back (so a 10 man unit can throw down 31 attacks on the charge) and a one use warlord trait that gives the warlord and all units within 6" furious charge and relentless. 

 

You might consider using warlord traits for special stuff, and altered force org charts to better represent your army, if you haven't already done so. That way it spices things up a bit, and the special rules aren't attached to specific models and it reduces book keeping. Just a though.

[Feyralwolf]

Still debating Warlord traits and organizational setup.  On one hand, I want a pretty character heavy army, but on the other... everyman can't be a hero in a sense.  Still rubbing my chin on characters to use for Imperial Guard troops.  It's possible that I would give Fjord Warlord traits, but once he transforms, those wouldn't apply.

 

I'm planning to use both, as well as Storm Eagle Gunships (as an upgrade option to a squadron).  At the end of the day, I want to whittle away some of the other options, I've listed all but I think 1 of the Leman Russ, since the Demolisher variant strikes me as wrong.  The reason for that is a mix of logistics (fewer designs means easier support), personal preference, and just what seems to make sense for the style of war.  I'd toss the Leman Russ for Predators if Predators were faster/more maneuverable for example.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I'd keep the Storm Eagle separate from Valkyries, as Valks and Vendettas are fast attack options, while the Storm Eagle is a SM heavy support choice.

 

The Russ's heavy type retricts it to a 6" move an no flat out, but allows it to fire as if it had been stationary (so ordnance without penalty, and all of it's weapons for the non ordnance version). The Pred just can't compete with that kind of firepower, but it can move at cruising speed and it can flat out. Where the pred shines is as an anti infantry tank, and light vehicle killer, so maybe take it as an infantry support option? Maybe make a predator squadron a platoon upgrade, since it would give you some firepower for your mech platoon, instead of taking heavy weapons squads?

 

Personally, I'd be more likely to take a Devil Dog Squadron as a platoon upgrade, because of the common chimera chassis, and the fact that the Devil Dog is a better vehicle killer than the Predator, and has all of the advantages over the Russ that the Pred does. The only thing is the Rhino Chassis looks more like the modern US armored vehicles than the Chimera does, but I like them both. Maybe take rhinos (since they're cheaper) instead of chimeras and then back them up with the Preds in the infantry platoon, that way you're not mixing Chassis and your loggies are happy. Additionally you could then feel free to use razorbacks for your special weapons squads, which I have to say has always appealed to me.  

 

Why does the Demolisher strike you as wrong? Sure it's got a shorter range gun, but it serves a very important role. It's a bastion breaker, roll it up to a building and then hit it with the cannon. 

 

I understand about logistics, I've been there. Personally there are really only 2 primary variants of the Russ I want to use, the Battle Tank and Vanquisher. The Eradicator and Demolisher are specialist variants that I'll consider, but not really high on my list of tanks to get. 

 

All in all since you said you want the force to be mostly guard, I'd stick to taking marine stuff where it covers gaps in what the Guard part brings. The Storm Eagle and Fire Raptor are excellent Heavy Support flyers, much better than the Imperial Navy Fighters the guard has access to (though I really like the looks of the Avenger, Thunderbolt, and Lightning fighters). The additional benefit to the Storm Eagle is the ability to transport 20 models, so that's a combined infantry squad, or a 20 man conscript bomb.