How to play Deathwing 7th Edition Tactica.

[Stormxlr]

I want to start a How to play Deathwing Tactica discussion so we can come up with an acceptable way to play DW until hopefully and errata and FAQ comes out. Or perhaps a dataslate so we can pay for a fix.

This is not a complain thread, we got what we got lets make the best of it.

 

First of all I will start by going through what constitutes as Deathwing, followed by the changes from 6th ed to 7th ed , new detachment/formation and issues we are facing and possible pure builds.

 

So lets get to it.

 

Deathwing consists of the following models/units;

• Deathwing Terminator Squad
• Deathwing Command Squad
• Deathwing Knights
• Dreadnoughts - Variants such as Chaplain and Contemptor are Venerable by default but not in rule wording but fluff only.
• Dedicated Land Raiders and Variants.
• Grand Master Belial and HQ choices capable of wearing Terminator armor (Company Master, Interrogator Chaplain, Librarian)

Changes from 6th ed to 7th ed, new rules are highlighted in Dark Angel Green.

• Deathwing Terminator price is down by 4 points, whole squad price is down by 20 total.
• Sergeants can take TH/SS or LCs.
• TH/SS are doubled in price, same as C:SM
• Deathwing Champion must issue and Accept challenges whenever possible due to Honour or Death Special Rule.Can only field one in the army, no other changes.
• Apothecaries are *Melta Bomb* point upgrade now down from 35, but you can only have one in the army.
• Any Deathwing squad can take Perfidious Relic of Unforgiven. Provides Adamantium will and Fear USRs.
• Deathwing Knights Mace of Absolution lost Bane of the Traitor but became +2 Str, AP3.Smite mode is now a pseudo smash attack (x2 Str,ap2, 1 attack)
• Deathwing Knight Master's Flail of Unforgiven lost Bane of the Traitor ( no more ap2 vs CSM) but gained Fleshbane.
• Inner Circle renamed into Deathwing Special Rule grants Fearless, Hatred (Chaos Space Marines)
• Lost Preferred Enemy (Chaos Space Marines) Can be gained by taking Deathwing Redemption Force.
• New Grim Resolve, ALL Terminators can overwatch at BS2 now also are Stubborn but that is overridden by Fearless.
• Vengeful Strike is part of Terminator Equipment rule now.
• We lost Banner of Fortitude( and other sacred standards, but this one was the most useful)
• Deathwing Command Squad cant carry Chapter Banner or any other banner besides Deathwing banner or Sacred Standard.
• Command Squad can "upgrade" 1 model to a DW Sergent.
• Belial lost ability to make DWT Troops, same point cost, new Warlord trait gives him Precision Shots and Ignores Cover. Marked for Retribution now allows him to re roll hits in challenges, Gained +1 Attack to total of 4.
• We lost Deathwing Assault from units. No more turn 1 or 2 "secret" Alpha Strike.
• No more Deathwing Vehicle Rule.
• Land Raiders lost Dozer Blades.

This are all the changes that I can think of, if I missed some or got something wrong please do mention it.

 

Lets continue by looking at a new Formation, Deathwing Redemption Force.

Requirements are

• 1 HQ in Terminator Armor
• 2-5 Deathwing Terminator Squads
• 0-1 Deathwing Command Squads
• 0-1 Deathwing Knights
• 0-1 Venerable Dreadnought. Must be in Drop pod. No more than one in the unit. So one only in the whole formation.

 

Command Benefits / Bonuses provided for taking the formation are :

 

• You get back Preferred Enemy Chaos Space Marines,
•  NEW Deathwing Assault its exactly the same as before except EVERYONE MUST START In Deep Strike Reserve. You CAN'T arrive turn 1, you can only Deep Strike Turn 2,3, or 4. Drop pod Assault rules are ignored and it arrives together with the formation.
• Take the fight to the Enemy. When your units arrive by Deep Strike during that turn they get pseudo Battle Focus e.g they can Run and shoot or shoot and run but only during that turn.

 

Now lets look at the new Deathwing Detachment.

Compulsory

1 HQ

2 Elites

Optional

2 HQ

10 Elites

 

Restrictions;

• Units in this detachment must have Deathwing Special Rule
• Venerable Dreadnought units must contain one model only and must be given a Drop pod.

Command Benefits for Taking this Detachment are:

• Summoned to War. Everyone must start in Deep Strike Reserve. But if you take Ravenwing Strike Force Detachment or Ravenwing Attack Squadron Formation you can choose to pass or fail the reserve roll and have no need to roll.
• First Knights of Caliban. If its your primary detachment you get to reroll your Warlord Traits.
• Take the fight to the Enemy. When your units arrive by Deep Strike during that turn they get pseudo Battle Focus e.g they can Run and shoot or shoot and run but only during that turn.

 

Both are just alright if used to support Ravenwing or Greenwing.  .

Lets look at the problems Pure Deathwing is Facing now.

• We lost Deathwing Assault turn one Deep Strike and/or no reserve roll DS.
• We lost Heavy Support choices , so no more FW Land Raider Variants like Spartan, or Deredeo Dreadnoughts.
• We lost Objective Secured DWT
• No more Starting on the table to footslog
• We can take Dedicated Land Raider Transports but we CANT field them since we have to Start in Deep Strike Reserve. So by RAW we cant field Land Raiders at all.
• Deathwing Redemption Force Formation auto looses turn one since there are no models on the board.
• Deathwing Strike Force Detachment can drop pod assault turn 1 so you need to take at least 1 Dreadnought in Drop Pod and survive turn one and then roll for every unit to come in on 4+ Turn 2. Not Very reliable at all.

Now while the some changes are nice and some are ok, what we gained in special rules does not outweigh what we lost. But everybody already knows that. We are here to see how we can remedy the situation

 

Lets look at the possible ways of playing fluffy pure Deathwing.

In my opinion it would be beneficial to take the Redemption Force Formation over the Detachment, You get back Preferred Enemy and dont need to roll when your units will come in. 

Now once you took the Redemption Force you need to find a way to get models on the table turn one so you dont auto loose.

Now here are some ways of doing it that I thought of since we can only use Terminators, Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts.

• Take 3 Land Raider Formation from SM codex as your pseudo heavy support DW Land Raiders.
• Take Unbound Dreadnoughts and/or Land Raiders and start them on the board. Now this is the only way to get your Forge World toys to play with your Deathwing.
• IIRC there is a Dreadnought formation in SM book. You can take that.
• You can take allied detachment of 6th edition Dark Angels and Deep Strike Belial and one group of DWT on the board and take those Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders.
• Go full unbound.
• Keep on using 6th Ed codex to play pure Deathwing and use 7th Edition to play Greenwing/Ravenwing.
• You can field allied Terminators that count as Deathwing on the table.

This are the legal ways of doing it , however you could always politely ask your opponent to let you deep strike turn one, or ignore the rule where it states that you auto loose if you have no models on the table, so he can make two moves and psychic phases. OR you can ask Ultramarines how come they can DS turn one now and Deathwing cant... sorry I meant you can take Strike force Ultra Formation and play those SM Terminators or substitute units from Codex SM for Codes DA if your opponent allows it. Marines are marines in the end of the day and this is just a formation.

 

Well this is my breakdown of "new" Deathwing. I will probably just keep on using 6th ed rules for Deathwing like I said. Lets see what you guys can make of this.

[HsojVvad]

Learning the rules and how to play 40K again. So most likely wrong here. I thought the Drop Pod rules still arrive on turn one. Where does it say they don't?

[Stormxlr]

Learning the rules and how to play 40K again. So most likely wrong here. I thought the Drop Pod rules still arrive on turn one. Where does it say they don't?

page 141 of the new Codex, check under restrictions, Venerable dread must take a drop pod. Then check Deathwing assault on the same page.

[HsojVvad]

Thanks Stormxir. I see now. I didn't know the Drop Pod Assault rules got overridden. Missed that. I am on the iPad interactive version so took me a while to find it. Page numbers don't match. 

[march10k]

~shrug~  We lost objective secured terminators anyway, so screw it, play unbound.  Problem solved.  Next question!

 

Yeah, yeah, "what if I'm playing in a tournament where they don't allow unbound lists?"

 

Answer:  You shouldn't be playing pure deathwing in a hyper-competitive environment anyway!

 

Personally, I'm looking forward to an FAQ that fixes the fact that you can't currently field a ravenwing strike force without Sammy...once that's fixed, I'll have super fluffy fun all over the place!  I want a deathwing strike force in combo with a small ravenwing strike force.  I'm thinking an attack squadron led by a librarian on a bike, my dark talon, and maybe a landspeeder or three, then fill up on termies.  Why this combo?  I get to choose which termies come in on which turn, they don't scatter if they're in range of a black brother, and running ravenwing and deathwing together is awesomely fluffy.

[Corrupted]

 

Learning the rules and how to play 40K again. So most likely wrong here. I thought the Drop Pod rules still arrive on turn one. Where does it say they don't?

page 141 of the new Codex, check under restrictions, Venerable dread must take a drop pod. Then check Deathwing assault on the same page.

 

That's only for the formation, the detachment doesn't say anything about overriding drop pod assault. So you could, conceivably get a few dreads on the table turn one.

[Stormxlr]

Learning the rules and how to play 40K again. So most likely wrong here. I thought the Drop Pod rules still arrive on turn one. Where does it say they don't?

page 141 of the new Codex, check under restrictions, Venerable dread must take a drop pod. Then check Deathwing assault on the same page.

That's only for the formation, the detachment doesn't say anything about overriding drop pod assault. So you could, conceivably get a few dreads on the table turn one.

Ummm... did you even read my post or is it TLDR? I did say that. But you need to take either 1 or 3 or 5 drop pod dreads (so you get 1/2/3 of them on the table according to Drop Pod Assault rules) to get them turn 1 on the table. Now you have to try to survive turn 1 with 1/2/3 av12 models on the table.

• Deathwing Redemption Force Formation auto looses turn one since there are no models on the board.
• Deathwing Strike Force Detachment can drop pod assault turn 1 so you need to take at least 1 Dreadnought in Drop Pod and survive turn one and then roll for every unit to come in on 4+ Turn 2. Not Very reliable at all.

Thanks Stormxir. I see now. I didn't know the Drop Pod Assault rules got overridden. Missed that. I am on the iPad interactive version so took me a while to find it. Page numbers don't match.

No problem

~shrug~ We lost objective secured terminators anyway, so screw it, play unbound. Problem solved. Next question!

Yeah, yeah, "what if I'm playing in a tournament where they don't allow unbound lists?"

Answer: You shouldn't be playing pure deathwing in a hyper-competitive environment anyway!

Personally, I'm looking forward to an FAQ that fixes the fact that you can't currently field a ravenwing strike force without Sammy...once that's fixed, I'll have super fluffy fun all over the place! I want a deathwing strike force in combo with a small ravenwing strike force. I'm thinking an attack squadron led by a librarian on a bike, my dark talon, and maybe a landspeeder or three, then fill up on termies. Why this combo? I get to choose which termies come in on which turn, they don't scatter if they're in range of a black brother, and running ravenwing and deathwing together is awesomely fluffy.

The point is I WANT TO run them in competitive environment, its an uphill battle but I did do quite well with my 1750 and 1850 Alpha striking Pure Terminators list. I got second and 3rd places now and then. Sure I lost to grav biker spam or 3 wk and 1 impknight list, but I did well against other lists, Even then I didnt loose outright I gave them a hard fight and they had to give it all to win.

The point is Im trying to find a way to do it legally within the bounds of the game, but you are outright disregarding it. I do not understand that attitude from the fellow Dark Angel players, especially you march10k.

Sure I can run Ravenwing with my DW, but I dont own any Ravenwing units, I own over 40 Terminators , more than 5 Dreadnoughts and and Land Raiders. Sure its fluffy to run mixwing but its also fluffy to run pure Deathwing and it was fine to do it for a long while, at least as long as ive been playing. This is what this thread is about, finding ways to play Deathwing in this new environment not disregarding them as lost dogs.

LONG LIVE THE DEATHWING! FOR THE LION ! FOR CALIBAN!

[rorhammer]

Is there anyway to help secure going second? If your opponent shoots at nothing and your drop pod arrives at the end of turn 1, that's turn one survived if you took the DWSF. Also with regards to the Land Raider issue by RAW you cannot take them, but in the BRB it states in the reserves section if a unit is taken that for any reason is impossible to deploy, it starts in reserves as per normal reserves rules.     

[palin2222]

Is there anyway to help secure going second? If your opponent shoots at nothing and your drop pod arrives at the end of turn 1, that's turn one survived if you took the DWSF. Also with regards to the Land Raider issue by RAW you cannot take them, but in the BRB it states in the reserves section if a unit is taken that for any reason is impossible to deploy, it starts in reserves as per normal reserves rules.     

win the roll off and chose to go second. intentionally fail to seize initiative.

[deadangel101]

If you're wanting to play pure Deathwing in a tournament, the Deathwing Strike Force is probably your only option. I doubt a tournament organiser is going to allow an out of print codex to be used.

 

The Deathwing Redemption Force is less flexible in terms of your choices in units, but if you took it along side the land raider formation from codex space marines, you can run it. The only problem I would have is 750 points of empty land raiders.

 

If you're talking tournament play, unbound isn't an option.

 

The truth is the days of running Deathwing solo are coming to an end. Too many rules are tied to Ravenwing. Bitter pill to swallow perhaps. Personally I'm going multi-wing. It offers the most options and flexibility.

[Macro]

_{I may be wrong, but I thought you could take 'formations' as part of a normal CAD? So surely, the strike force is just a different CAD style, and so you should be able to still take a formation as part of this? Given that, so long as you take the 2 DWT units for the formation, then the units taken in the formation will also get the strike force AND formation benefits? Should mean no need to take the RWSF to be able to choose when to deploy and also get prefered enemy CSM again. Then either add in a small GW CAD, or even a standard DW CAD, to have units on the board turn 1+}

[march10k]

~shrug~

 

I hear what you're saying, Stormlxr, but I've always been a mechanized deathwing player.  That's completely impossible now in a battleforged list, so I'm only marginally attached to the nuance of whether you can get 1 or 2 podded dreads on the table on turn one and how to keep them alive till turn 2.  I'm just irritated by the "deathwing are completely unplayable" whining.  That's not true at all, what is true is that they can no longer be played in exactly the same way as in the old codex.  The game's evolved, adapt!

 

Actually, in 4th and I think 5th, I was playing with bikes, dreads, and termies, and I have fond memories of it...I went like 27-1-3 once I got the list figured out, and the one loss was to a non-codex list...lost and damned with three large blobs of cultists, each with a buried S6 PF and a buried S8 powerfist.  I don't own, or even want, too much ravenwing, but I am kinda looking forward to a return to black/white.  Occasionally, sure, I'll break out my fleet of land raiders and play an unbound mechanized deathwing list.  

 

The fact is that "pure" deathwing is marginalized this edition, there's no point in crying about it.  Anyway, playing with 40 deathwing terminators and nothing else is exceptionally unfluffy, that many of the first company would fight together maybe once a millenium, and there'd better be at least half a squad of fallen on the other side of the table...and even then, the ravenwing brothers who found them would almost certainly be in the picture.  It was possible to build a pure DW force out of our codex for a long time, but that didn't make it fluffy, just common.  The fluffy way to play deathwing is one squad, led by an interrogator chaplain, possibly with a senior librarian along for support.  One squad, maybe two.  Chasing a single fallen angel...or, in support of a battle company, maybe 3-4 squads.

 

 

_{I may be wrong, but I thought you could take 'formations' as part of a normal CAD? So surely, the strike force is just a different CAD style, and so you should be able to still take a formation as part of this? Given that, so long as you take the 2 DWT units for the formation, then the units taken in the formation will also get the strike force AND formation benefits? Should mean no need to take the RWSF to be able to choose when to deploy and also get prefered enemy CSM again. Then either add in a small GW CAD, or even a standard DW CAD, to have units on the board turn 1+}

 

You're not making any sense...the complaint being put forward is that it's "impossible" to play with nothing  but land raiders, venerable dreadnoughts and terminators...the idea of fielding 2x5 scouts and an additional character (in TDA, naturally!) will be rejected out of hand, and it's actually not any more likely to prevent you from being tabled on turn one than the idea of dropping in two venereal (!) dreddies on turn one.  And there is no such thing as a "standard DW CAD," since deathwing can no longer be troops!

[Master Avoghai]

 

Personally, I'm looking forward to an FAQ that fixes the fact that you can't currently field a ravenwing strike force without Sammy...once that's fixed, I'll have super fluffy fun all over the place!  I want a deathwing strike force in combo with a small ravenwing strike force.  I'm thinking an attack squadron led by a librarian on a bike, my dark talon, and maybe a landspeeder or three, then fill up on termies.  Why this combo?  I get to choose which termies come in on which turn, they don't scatter if they're in range of a black brother, and running ravenwing and deathwing together is awesomely fluffy.

Why then wait for any FAQ when you can play a RWAS with scout LS that have a 12" range teleport homer? ;)

[march10k]

Personally, I'm looking forward to an FAQ that fixes the fact that you can't currently field a ravenwing strike force without Sammy...once that's fixed, I'll have super fluffy fun all over the place! I want a deathwing strike force in combo with a small ravenwing strike force. I'm thinking an attack squadron led by a librarian on a bike, my dark talon, and maybe a landspeeder or three, then fill up on termies. Why this combo? I get to choose which termies come in on which turn, they don't scatter if they're in range of a black brother, and running ravenwing and deathwing together is awesomely fluffy.

Why then wait for any FAQ when you can play a RWAS with scout LS that have a 12" range teleport homer?

Well, sure, if you want to be effective....but I just want to field my DT

[beastrouille]

Anyway, I just re-read deep stike rule and as a matter of fact, I am now convinced that we see a problem here when there is none in the case of the DWSF.

Let me explain:

Firstly, the restrictions of the DWSF which state that you can only field units with DW special rule or dedicated transports. The latter would be either drop pods for venerable dreads or land raiders for the terminator (and knights) squads. Secondly, the "summoned to war" rule stating that all units must arrive by deep strike. This one being seen as the problem.

When you read the deep strike rules, there are two elements of importance in this case. The first one is the rule wording in itself: "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve." As we read that, nothing is really solved but, there is another point that might save the day, here it is: "Units do not confer the Deep Strike special rule onto a Transport vehicle they are embarked inside." So now, where do I go and what is my point ?

It seems rather obvious to me that if you choose a land raider as a dedicated transport and choose to deploy the unit it transports inside the vehicule, you simply override the "summoned to war condition". How can you Deep strike a land raider when the DS rule clearly states that this is impossible ?

 

Anyway, I am not telling I am 100% right, but just trying to have the debate go toward some solution for people who want to field a "pure" DW...

[Kubrick54]

Anyway, I just re-read deep stike rule and as a matter of fact, I am now convinced that we see a problem here when there is none in the case of the DWSF.

Let me explain:

Firstly, the restrictions of the DWSF which state that you can only field units with DW special rule or dedicated transports. The latter would be either drop pods for venerable dreads or land raiders for the terminator (and knights) squads. Secondly, the "summoned to war" rule stating that all units must arrive by deep strike. This one being seen as the problem.

When you read the deep strike rules, there are two elements of importance in this case. The first one is the rule wording in itself: "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve." As we read that, nothing is really solved but, there is another point that might save the day, here it is: "Units do not confer the Deep Strike special rule onto a Transport vehicle they are embarked inside." So now, where do I go and what is my point ?

It seems rather obvious to me that if you choose a land raider as a dedicated transport and choose to deploy the unit it transports inside the vehicule, you simply override the "summoned to war condition". How can you Deep strike a land raider when the DS rule clearly states that this is impossible ?

 

Anyway, I am not telling I am 100% right, but just trying to have the debate go toward some solution for people who want to field a "pure" DW...

While true, aren't the LR and The Squad considered 2 separate units? While the LR couldn't deep strike, as you demonstrated, the squad does not Have to deploy in said raider. So I guess you could deploy The LR but it's squad would have to DS because of the Summon to War rule.

 

That's how I see it...

[HsojVvad]

Anyway, I just re-read deep stike rule and as a matter of fact, I am now convinced that we see a problem here when there is none in the case of the DWSF.

Let me explain:

Firstly, the restrictions of the DWSF which state that you can only field units with DW special rule or dedicated transports. The latter would be either drop pods for venerable dreads or land raiders for the terminator (and knights) squads. Secondly, the "summoned to war" rule stating that all units must arrive by deep strike. This one being seen as the problem.

When you read the deep strike rules, there are two elements of importance in this case. The first one is the rule wording in itself: "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve." As we read that, nothing is really solved but, there is another point that might save the day, here it is: "Units do not confer the Deep Strike special rule onto a Transport vehicle they are embarked inside." So now, where do I go and what is my point ?

It seems rather obvious to me that if you choose a land raider as a dedicated transport and choose to deploy the unit it transports inside the vehicule, you simply override the "summoned to war condition". How can you Deep strike a land raider when the DS rule clearly states that this is impossible ?

 

Anyway, I am not telling I am 100% right, but just trying to have the debate go toward some solution for people who want to field a "pure" DW...

 

Relearning the rules of 40K this is what I thought of yesterday but didn't say anything since, well I am an idiot to 40K rules. :P

 

The way I see it is 2 ways. What you just said, Land Raiders can't Deep Strike so the units embarked inside it void the Deathwing Strike Force (sorry if I am getting the names wrong so much for me to take in.)

 

The second way I see it, is Rule book is greater than the Rule book. So we have Deep Striking Land Raiders. The way I read it, the Land Raiders must be placed in Reserve as well, or should I be saying Deep Strike reserve. 

[Corrupted]

 

Anyway, I just re-read deep stike rule and as a matter of fact, I am now convinced that we see a problem here when there is none in the case of the DWSF.

Let me explain:

Firstly, the restrictions of the DWSF which state that you can only field units with DW special rule or dedicated transports. The latter would be either drop pods for venerable dreads or land raiders for the terminator (and knights) squads. Secondly, the "summoned to war" rule stating that all units must arrive by deep strike. This one being seen as the problem.

When you read the deep strike rules, there are two elements of importance in this case. The first one is the rule wording in itself: "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve." As we read that, nothing is really solved but, there is another point that might save the day, here it is: "Units do not confer the Deep Strike special rule onto a Transport vehicle they are embarked inside." So now, where do I go and what is my point ?

It seems rather obvious to me that if you choose a land raider as a dedicated transport and choose to deploy the unit it transports inside the vehicule, you simply override the "summoned to war condition". How can you Deep strike a land raider when the DS rule clearly states that this is impossible ?

 

Anyway, I am not telling I am 100% right, but just trying to have the debate go toward some solution for people who want to field a "pure" DW...

While true, aren't the LR and The Squad considered 2 separate units? While the LR couldn't deep strike, as you demonstrated, the squad does not Have to deploy in said raider. So I guess you could deploy The LR but it's squad would have to DS because of the Summon to War rule.

 

That's how I see it...

 

This is what's been rolling around in my brain, and we need a FAQ ruling to clarify it. You may be able to get a few raiders along with some dreads on the table turn one. Now I'm not saying that the start to a good list necessarily, but it's more survivable than two dreads...

[march10k]

Well...in general, codex rules override modify BRB rules.  In this case, the terminators would be forced to deepstrike, while the land raiders would not, since they are in fact separate units, even though they collectively fill a single FOC slot.  The real question is whether it is legal to field land raiders in that detachment in the first place, given the contradiction between "everything must deepstrike," and "only models with the deepstrike special rule may deepstrike."  The most straightforward solution is that you can't field land raiders, but I suspect that what the authors intended was that you be allowed to field dedicated transport land raiders, but they must deploy empty, with the terminators in reserve.  That would make it far less likely that you'll be tabled, and it would shift the balance away from crusaders towards mars pattern land raiders...I would go from three crusaders with three terminator squads inside them to two mars pattern land raiders and four deepstriking terminator squads in that case....except that I own one mars, three crusaders, and a terminus ultra, so I guess it'd have to be a mars and a crusader for me.

[beastrouille]

This is what's been rolling around in my brain, and we need a FAQ ruling to clarify it. You may be able to get a few raiders along with some dreads on the table turn one. Now I'm not saying that the start to a good list necessarily, but it's more survivable than two dreads...

Well, that was somewhat my point. Without a FAQ, we can still field empty Land Raiders. I know for sure that my usual playmates (nothing to do with the magazine, huh?) would allow me to field them with terminators inside, but this is garage play so...

 

Well...in general, codex rules override modify BRB rules.  In this case, the terminators would be forced to deepstrike, while the land raiders would not, since they are in fact separate units, even though they collectively fill a single FOC slot.  The real question is whether it is legal to field land raiders in that detachment in the first place, given the contradiction between "everything must deepstrike," and "only models with the deepstrike special rule may deepstrike."  The most straightforward solution is that you can't field land raiders, but I suspect that what the authors intended was that you be allowed to field dedicated transport land raiders, but they must deploy empty, with the terminators in reserve.  That would make it far less likely that you'll be tabled, and it would shift the balance away from crusaders towards mars pattern land raiders...I would go from three crusaders with three terminator squads inside them to two mars pattern land raiders and four deepstriking terminator squads in that case....except that I own one mars, three crusaders, and a terminus ultra, so I guess it'd have to be a mars and a crusader for me.

I know the fact that Codex Rules usually go before BRB rules. But again, in order to deepstrike you need the USR, the DWBF restrictions allow Land Raiders so you can at least field them empty IMHO.

I would tend to think that the RAI reading goes toward the solution of fielding filled Land Raiders, but in the end, hey, who know what the rule developers intend ?

I am sure some rule lawyer would find a way to contradict that and I also feel the need of a FAQ to clarify that.

[Elios Harg]

The Deathwing Strike Force does not specifically prohibit you from fielding dedicated transport land raiders. However, it does specify that every unit from the detachment, which would include dedicated transports, *MUST* be placed in deep strike reserve which Land Raiders cannot do. So if you field them you are forced to break a rule, either the deep strike rules or the Summoned to War rule. Which means you cannot legally field them unless FAQ'd.

 

Non-TDA equipped Deathwing characters fall under the same issue. They are not prohibited from being fielded, but again doing so forces you to break the rules.

 

Of course, this only matters for organized play as in friendly games you can do whatever you want as long as your opponent is ok with it.

[IndigoJack]

I'm fairly certain the reason dedicated transports are even mentioned is because of the ven dread drop pods. I don't believe the intent was to put DW in land raiders. It's shame really, DW has had the ability to be fielded as a standalone force since 2nd edition, why GW decided to force them to both deep strike and come in after first turn is beyond me. To make DW viable, all they really need to do is change the wording from "must start in deep strike reserve..." to "may start in deep strike reserve..."

[Elios Harg]

My work around will be to use both the Strike Force and the Redemption Force when I want pure Deathwing. For example:

 

DWSF

 

HQ

3x TDA Librarian

 

Elites

3x Ven. Dread in pod

 

DWRF

TDA Librarian

2x Deathwing Terminators

1x Deathwing Knights

1x Deathwing Command Squad

 

I'm not sure if there are any restrictions on having the strike force librarians join a unit in the redemption force, but if so, you can put a squad in the strike force for them to join.

 

The idea is that by combining them, you guarantee that you will get turn 2 units. If you don't field ravenwing there is nothing to guarantee the strike force will get units on the board turn 2, so your dreads may have to survive longer. This method means all but one dreadnought would arrive by turn 2. That's assuming I can join my HQ(s) to the Redemption Force squads.

[FatherTurin]

I know this is far from a perfect solution, but what about using a Hammer of Caliban formation along with either the Redemption Force or Strike Force? Granted it would be really nice to get a FAQ and clarify the issues with transports, but this would at least resolve the auto-lose on turn 1 (unless the opponent can eat through a Land Raider and 3 Predators on turn 1)

[Darkn3ssF4lls]

thanks for this m8