Conn Eremon Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Scars is a fan favorite, but I find his Vth Legion to be lackluster. It's exceptionally derivative, doing to them using Mongolian stereotypes what Bill King did to the Wolves using Viking stereotypes. Abnett made the Wolves even more Viking-ish, but less stereotypical and more interesting. Wraight did not do that. King and Wraight's approach have their place in the lore, and appear to be well-liked, but they just aren't my thing anymore. But of all that, I absolutely hated the Ullanor Triumph, where they sounded like children all but whipping out measuring tape. In fact, I liked Guilliman, the Lion, and Sanguinius in Deathfire better than Wraight's Khan, Mortarion, Fulgrim and Magnus. Because a nonsensical inability to react to a nonexistent challenge reads better than an edgy, try-hard Khan going back and forth with Fulgrim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Fair enough, just wondered. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogmagog Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 I really Chris Wrights work! Horses for courses I suppose! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sviox Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Just finished the book. Really liked it, one of the better books in the series (though not top-5 material). Looking forward for the third part in Kyme's trilogy. The only bit I didn't like was the Narek plotline which was a bit confusing. Anyone have any theories on what actually happened between Macragge and the cargo hold he ended up in as Hect? There was some thoughts about it towards the end of the book but they left huge gaps in the story. Maybe this was the subplot mentioned in the afterwords and maybe will be available as a separate short story later on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_r_parker Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Blast - I had a post on here and it was lost with the Server issues. Finished the book this morning, and it was a bit "meh". Had a couple of gripes with it: Most of the characters were pretty one dimensional, and there was little real character development. The only real character that was a bit more interesting was the Knight Errant Hecht, but his character was probably the most disjointed and confusing of the entire bunch - and quite frankly he could have been removed from the plot and it wouldn't have changed one iota. The Death Guard and Word Bearers felt more like their 40k representation rather than their 30k incarnations, which feels wrong in a 30k setting. They felt like they've progressed a little too far down their 40k characteristic path, and came off being more of a moustache-twiddling bad guys than the more developed viewpoints of the traitor legions. It was a little cliche, traitors are evil and loyaists are good - I like some grey area in between! The story didn't really have too much of a surprise element to it - you knew where it was going from very early on, continually reinforced it as it progressed, and by the end it delivered exactly what you were expecting. I know not everything can have twist endings, or diverge onto something different, but this was somehow unrewarding. The sheer number of chapters was off-putting. For 500 pages I was expecting a few, but it turns out there were ~70 chapters by the time you got to the end. It's noticeable, it's annoying, and quite frankly there was a new chapter whenever the physical location changed. It could have been handled better (and probably would have reduced the page count by a few pages too). There were a few points in the story where the plot was progressed and the Sallies were rescued by 'Deus-Ex Machina' random plot points, which I thought was lazy and confusing. To draw comparisons, to me they felt similar to the Lord of the Rings / Hobbit films with the Eagles that randomly turn up to tranport the Heros further down the line - some of them were literally that random / convenient. Seeng as this was book 2 of a supposed trilogy (not sure how Unremembered Empire fits into this model), I really have no desire to read book 3. In all honesty, I read this beacuse it was the first full-size Heresy novel that I've read in a while, and I've been looking forward to getting into a full size story rather than the Novellas and Short Story Compilations as of late. I'd probably get the third part of the trilogy as I have all the main HH books in the series and wouldn't want to miss one in the collection, but I'm not exactly looking forward to reading it, and it may just sit on my shelf unread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Thiel is in it and is awesome Thanks for this. I will be picking it up immediately as Aeonid is my favorite Ultra character. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Just finished: thoroughly enjoyed. Loved the horror elements! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davisbe Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Vulkan Lives! Vulkan Lives! Vulkan Lives! Vulkan Lives! Vulkan Lives! Vulkan Lives! Vulkan Lives! Vulkan Lives! Vulkan Lives! That seems to be the majority of the dialogue. Tortured by renegades? Vulkan Lives! Told that Vulkan died? Vulkan Lives! Speaking to THREE primarchs? Vulkan Lives! Personally see Vulkan's lifeless body? Vulkan Lives! I absolutely detest how one-dimensional the primarchs were. Sanguinius is adorably angelic, Guilliman is moronically proud, and the Lion is so terribly mysterious. Magnus seems to be included just because he's MAGNUS!, no other sensible explanation is included. I did like the way that some of the Legion in the novel revert to their self-destructive/suicidal tendencies as soon as Vulkan is (ostensibly) dead, while others cling to the Promethean Creed and Vulkan's teachings. Ultimately though, the ending didn't feel like a cliffhanger, as much as a "Okay, I'm bored with this, let's wrap this up QUICK!"I mean, a single battleship (IIRC) attacking a Legion Homeworld? Nocturne is defenseless? No orbital defenses, no system patrols, not even any defense laser installations? That's cheap and weak writing. Hoping that we get a better finale to the trilogy, although it would really be against type for Nick Kyme. Most likely will be MOAR EXPLOSIONS, MOAR BODY COUNT, MOAR DEUS EX MACHINA!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoesl Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I too struggled a lot with this story.....it is just so u wieldy and besides thiel no real character to like, but thats just my opinion :) Something like battle of the fang in a hh setying would be nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I mean, a single battleship (IIRC) attacking a Legion Homeworld? Nocturne is defenseless? No orbital defenses, no system patrols, not even any defense laser installations? That's cheap and weak writing. I wished I mentioned this earlier...im still in shock by how stupid this was. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 I am halfway through this novel and as I mentioned earlier I do like how Nick writes the Ultra's characters, however I am severely let down by his portrayal of Guilliman. Instead of coming off as a demi-god who architects the future of the Imperium, he comes off as a short tempered child losing control of an albeit frustrating situation. The Primarchs are demi-gods that walk super humans into battle for 100's of years. You'd never know it by the dialogue and outright goofy scenarios unfolding between some of these characters. I know that sounds bad, but I'm a little tired of the Primarchs coming off as the most moronic characters of the 40K universe. 90% of the time their first captains come off as the intellectuals, and this further serves that most of us are used to inept upper management in our daily lives, but this should not be the case in the 40K universe. As bad as I have built that up, I am actually really liking most other aspects of the novel. Some of the Salamanders gruff exterior is borderline idiotic but overall I find most of the non-primarch characters very good... and likable, or at least believable. I always look very forward to reading the Primarch's exchanges and their scenes ever since ADB started making them less of a 'shadow in the background', but in this case I'd rip those pages out of the novel because the 'imagined moments' I have exceed the exchanges in these books.... I don't know which primarch disappoints me most.. .it's hard to say. I realize reading this it comes off I don't like the book but I'm really enjoying it. I'd just remove the Primarch scenes entirely, they don't feel right to me personally. And again I do really like how Nick writes Ultramarines... far more than Graham did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Scars is a fan favorite, but I find his Vth Legion to be lackluster. It's exceptionally derivative, doing to them using Mongolian stereotypes what Bill King did to the Wolves using Viking stereotypes. Abnett made the Wolves even more Viking-ish, but less stereotypical and more interesting. Wraight did not do that. King and Wraight's approach have their place in the lore, and appear to be well-liked, but they just aren't my thing anymore. But of all that, I absolutely hated the Ullanor Triumph, where they sounded like children all but whipping out measuring tape. In fact, I liked Guilliman, the Lion, and Sanguinius in Deathfire better than Wraight's Khan, Mortarion, Fulgrim and Magnus. Because a nonsensical inability to react to a nonexistent challenge reads better than an edgy, try-hard Khan going back and forth with Fulgrim. I would have to disagree strongly. Wraight's prose is much better than King's. If Wraight's Scars are derivative, then Abnett's Wolves are derivative as well. I suspect you like one and not the other because your interest in Vikings is simply greater than your interest in Mongols? That said, Wraight's Scars are written as warrior-poets with a penchant for mysticism. They prefer lightning warfare because speed is both beautiful and thrilling to them...ideally, combat should be poetry in motion and an outlet for emotion and passion (according to their philosophy) This portrayal is in contrast to both historical Mongols, who treated warfare as a disciplined science, and stereotypical Mongols, who were painted as bloodthirsty spawn of Satan. I also think Curse and Russ have been portrayed as much more edgy than the Khan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Svlox 'Really liked it, one of the better books in the series ' - will not even left a comment for that. I'm now more interested what actually is a good book for you? Wraight prose is one of the best that BL left. Only his novels + Rob Sanders and John French has me interested in BL anymore. And his old Warhammer duology about Kurt is one of the best BL novels ever. Definitely much better than almost all of the fantasy stuff to date. Wolf King his new novella about Alaxxes will go on sale Friday October 2nd. And it would be AWESOME! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 Svlox 'Really liked it, one of the better books in the series ' - will not even left a comment for that. I'm now more interested what actually is a good book for you? Wraight prose is one of the best that BL left. Only his novels + Rob Sanders and John French has me interested in BL anymore. And his old Warhammer duology about Kurt is one of the best BL novels ever. Definitely much better than almost all of the fantasy stuff to date. Wolf King his new novella about Alaxxes will go on sale Friday October 2nd. And it would be AWESOME! Only Wraight , Sanders and French? How about Aaron and Dan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 Wraight's prose is much better than King's. If Wraight's Scars are derivative, then Abnett's Wolves are derivative as well. I suspect you like one and not the other because your interest in Vikings is simply greater than your interest in Mongols I really only responded to WLK's question because I figured, and he later proved, that he was just curious and wouldn't turn it into an off-topic conversation. If you really want to discuss this further, feel free to message me. Hidden Content You suspect incorrectly, as far as my real-world cultural interests are concerned. Now, it is entirely possible that we are exposed to different stereotypes, that what I have seen as stereotypical Asian Steppe culture as popularly depicted not necessarily matching yours. As for the Wolves, I did explicitly state that they were also derivative under Abnett. The distinction for me was that it took a different, less obvious and stereotypical path than Wraight took the White Scars. Still heavily Viking/Celtic in nature and theme, but not necessarily cartoonishly so or to such an extent that this thematic identity overwhelmed their 40k identity. This, coupled with consistently good writing, is what made it more interesting to me. A lot of it boiled down to Abnett writing a Legion with elements of Viking and Celtic cultures, while Wraight did the reverse. As for King, it was not about comparing writing talent or prose. King and his Wolf seried epitomized a particular era of BL publications that Wraight's writing felt more appropriate. Not that this era was a bad one, but it isn't one that I am particularly interested in anymore. When I was first introduced to 40k, I did like that, and I'm sure much of Wraight's work would have been more readily accepted by me back then. My interests have changed. If I was to compare Wraight's prose or talent, it would be to McNeil. He shows talent, he can make a good story. I just haven't read one where he follows through all the way. Whether it's that Ullanor scene, where the Khan suddenly decided he needed his brothers to know just how hard he was, triggering an edge contest in Scars or the entirety of Battle for the Fang, which really felt like I was reading a Uriel Ventris book, the Fenrisian edition. Which ironically, did far more to promote a "superior" Wolves outlook than Abnett ever did, and the only Wolf book I have read to actually show the Wulfen as a boon rather than a curse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 Will send u a PM... Don't see how Wraight's Scars are more derivatives than Abnett's Wolves...I feel they are about on the same level...also Wraight's prose is much better than McNeill's IMO...will save the details for my PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 b1soul 'How about Aaron and Dan? ' Aaron writes slowly - but yes he is good. Where have you seen Abnett's new Warhammer books, lol. He hasn't written anything BL related for awhile now. He can't even finish 'Warmaster' for several years now, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I absolutely detest how one-dimensional the primarchs were. Sanguinius is adorably angelic, Guilliman is moronically proud, and the Lion is so terribly mysterious. Magnus seems to be included just because he's MAGNUS!, no other sensible explanation is included. I haven't read the book because I've read enough Kyme Salamander stuff to know I'm not going to like it, but at a guess I'd say that Magnus is included because it's really freaking easy to include Magnus. Dude can just show up and have a conversation, don't have to worry about figuring out how to do it because it's magic. Makes it way easy to get some inter-faction conversation going without having to carve out a lull in a battle or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sviox Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 Svlox 'Really liked it, one of the better books in the series ' - will not even left a comment for that. I'm now more interested what actually is a good book for you? Maybe that came out a bit too positive. Let me try again. I was positively surprised after Vulkan Lives as this was much better and a really "easy reading" and provided the kind of plot advancement that I was looking for, even though some of the things were really easy to predict. The good: +Narek +Futher look into imperium secondus +Vulkan lives! (the plot twist opens up possibilities) +Writing style and short chapters (at least helps me like a book a lot since I'm not native English speaker) The bad: -Vulkan lives! (oh really??) -Plot devices (mount deathfire thing at the end, Magnus' motivation, flaming the life-eater virus) As for what is a good book for me, I think the best in the series so far have been the opening trilogy, Prospero Burns, Legion, The First Heretic, Mechanicum and Scars. What I think are the worst books in the series are Damnation of Pythos (horrible, just awful, only managed to finish this as audio book), Fulgrim (yes, I know this is generally loved but it was hard to finish this even with some very good parts in it) and Angel Exterminatus. Yes, I know I didn't list Furious Abyss - that doesn't mean that I loved it, just that it was an "easy read" that didn't quite disturb me as much as it did a lot of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 Thanks for an answer - i was expecting some trolling, but now i could say only ty. Fully agree that it had it's good moments - some battles and Narek. But everything else was so bad - that it couldn't save the book in my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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