Frater Cornelius Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 What is it? A Warp being? A manifestation of the Emperor's might? Technological shenanigans? I am working on a holy order and I am planning to include actual Angelic Warriors, so that subject here is very relevant to me. Cheers ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disciple of Caliban Sgt Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 If I recall properly from the Heresy books she manifested the might of the Emperor only in times of great distress. Then her faith made her essentially a mini beacon in the warp if you will. Anthema to all daemons etc. Think of Living Saints as almost a Psychic conduit for all the Citizens of the Imperium and they are essentially channeling a bit of that. During the Heresy I would assume this would be a little stronger since the Emperor was still alive etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Are we talking about Celestine or someone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted July 3, 2015 Author Share Posted July 3, 2015 Are we talking about Celestine or someone else? In general. Or is every LS born in a different way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sororita Katya Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 All Living Saints are born differently, although Celestine is the only one I really know about. Each one has been picked in a time of great turmoil with them rising from the death and destruction and instilling faith and fury into all for the emperor. It is unknown whether all continue living on as living saints after this moment or whether most fade away. That's as much as I know...but a new living Saint doesn't happen very much at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted July 3, 2015 Author Share Posted July 3, 2015 Is there a scientific definition of what they are? Or is it a matter of believe? Thorians believe in something called 'Divine Avatars', individuals that are host to the Emperor's consciousness. Maybe they are being infused with His power? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 It varies. Euphrati Keeler, the first 'living saint', was a follower of the Lectitio Divinatus who attempted to repel a daemon with a strongly presented holy symbol and absolute faith in the Emperor, and it worked. Sabbat was a shepherd girl who had a 'healing hands' type power, I believe, although this may have been psychic in nature originally. Nobody knows. She died leading the first crusade to reclaim the Sabbat Worlds. Alicia Dominica, the most famous Living Saint, mostly held the title in an honourary sense - she didn't perform any miracles until much later in life. Sabbat was reborn during Macaroth's reign over the second Sabbat Crusade as a civilian. She performed healing miracles, was a supernaturally gifted warrior despite no formal training, and was killed by a sniper. She then appears to have 'body jumped' into a temple novice named Sanian, who began to show the same powers and gain Sabbat's memories. Celestine was a Repentia of the Order of Our Martyred Lady until she found a shrine containing the Armour of St. Katherine and the Argent Blade. She felt a calling to the ancient wargear, and upon donning it gained preternatural speed, skill, and an angelic aura. She died during the the campaign, but appeared again in the middle of a battle when all seemed otherwise lost. Since then, she has continued to appear from nowhere during battles that seem otherwise hopeless, only to vanish again after the battle - very rarely does she remain to lead the campaign until a Sororitas victory is certain. The Sanguinor is an even more mysterious figure, appearing and disappearing in the same manner as Celestine (and Sabbat, to a lesser extent), although unlike the other two resurrected saints, nobody knows the Sanguinor's origin story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted July 3, 2015 Author Share Posted July 3, 2015 The Talon of Horus has fluff that basically proves Imperial Daemons/Angels exist. Imperius, Avatar of the Astronomican appears there and it speaks of a Battle in the Warp where the Eye and Asteonomican meet, the Firetide. Neverborn vs Angels of the Astronomican. Imperius had a mask that looked very akin to the Deathmask of the BA. Things like that could explain some of those phenomenons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 If you're looking to write fluff for your own Living Saint you could just do what GW does and pick the story of a saint like figure from history and adapt it to fit the game universe. I don't think there is a clearly defined way that it's supposed to work in-universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sedibear Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 If I recall properly from the Heresy books she manifested the might of the Emperor only in times of great distress. Then her faith made her essentially a mini beacon in the warp if you will. Anthema to all daemons etc. Think of Living Saints as almost a Psychic conduit for all the Citizens of the Imperium and they are essentially channeling a bit of that. During the Heresy I would assume this would be a little stronger since the Emperor was still alive etc. I don't think there were Living Saints during the Heresy because: 1. The Adepta Sororitas were not yet founded during M31 2. Their "precursors" (Sisters of Silence) were psychic anathema so I doubt if they could become beacons of the warp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted July 3, 2015 Author Share Posted July 3, 2015 If you're looking to write fluff for your own Living Saint you could just do what GW does and pick the story of a saint like figure from history and adapt it to fit the game universe. I don't think there is a clearly defined way that it's supposed to work in-universe. Not specifically a saint, but an actual angel. Like Imperius in Talon of Horus. The reason I am asking about Saints is because those things are all king of related with each other. Emperor magics and all that ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 If I recall properly from the Heresy books she manifested the might of the Emperor only in times of great distress. Then her faith made her essentially a mini beacon in the warp if you will. Anthema to all daemons etc. Think of Living Saints as almost a Psychic conduit for all the Citizens of the Imperium and they are essentially channeling a bit of that. During the Heresy I would assume this would be a little stronger since the Emperor was still alive etc. I don't think there were Living Saints during the Heresy because: 1. The Adepta Sororitas were not yet founded during M31 2. Their "precursors" (Sisters of Silence) were psychic anathema so I doubt if they could become beacons of the warp. Living Saints are not actually related to the Adepta Sororitas, past the fact that two of the known Living Saints (three if you count Soulstorm) are or were Sororitas. At least two of the Living Saints predate the Sisterhood (Euphrati Keeler and Sabbat), for one thing. The Sisters of Silence, likewise, have nothing to do with the Adepta Sororitas, other than that the Battle Sisters took over some of the duties that, during the Great Crusade, were performed by the Silent Sisterhood. As for being 'beacons of the Warp', Euphrati Keeler was noted to specifically not be a psyker, I believe, as was Celestine (as the Sisterhood do not accept psykers, and Celestine was a Sororitas Militant before she was sainted). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Not specifically a saint, but an actual angel. Like Imperius in Talon of Horus. The reason I am asking about Saints is because those things are all king of related with each other. Emperor magics and all that Haven't read Talon of Horus yet, so this is news to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted July 3, 2015 Author Share Posted July 3, 2015 Not specifically a saint, but an actual angel. Like Imperius in Talon of Horus. The reason I am asking about Saints is because those things are all king of related with each other. Emperor magics and all that Haven't read Talon of Horus yet, so this is news to me. Me neither. Much thanks goes to Lucien Eilam for finding and quoting (and paraphrasing) the relevant information for me. Angels of the Astronomican, Divine Avatars (what the Thorians believe) and Living Saints... man so much angelic fluff, my head bursts from all the ideas now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 As for the Sanguinor, there is a short story/ audio drama that goes a bit into his origins in 30k. Iirc he also speaks to Dante in the fluff of the BA vs Nid campaign box. Other than that, Id almost call Living Saints Greater Daemons of the Emperor :p Though I am interested in how Euphrati got her powers since the Big E wasnt a fan of anything Lorgar produced if it wasnt civilisations brough back into the Imperium under the Imperial Truth so I dont really see him giving powers to someone who believes in something he deems worthless and counter to the Imperial Truth (Ie Lorgars book on him being all godly); especially if she wasnt noted as being a Psyker beforehand. Maybe she was latent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Or maybe it hints at humanity having a native power that can only be brought out through adversity, that has nothing to do with The Warp, and nothing to do with The Emperor directly. Perhaps Euphrati's powers - and the other Living Saints, and perhaps even the Sororitas - have inadvertantly tapped into this 'Power of Belief', much like the old ladies lifting cars off their grandchildren. Perhaps its a power inherent to the human 'soul', 'aura' or 'ki' that so many religions describe. Its a fascinating subject that I really wish we would be told more about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 I actually like the ambiguity. It leaves room for creativity and gives it a sense of mystery. Things like that work best when left unexplained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqui Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 I always explained to myself that Living Saints tend to fight along side Sisters because of their pious nature and complete reluctance (if not outright refusal) to back down from a fight. That does not exclude those IG units who are pious (or at least fight with enough fervour to be as near to pious as is possible). Hmm...that made more sense in my head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Of all the Living Saints, only the two who are or were Sisters are known to have fought alongside the Sororitas - Keeler predates them by four thousand years and Sabbat teamed up with the Gaurd :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqui Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Of all the Living Saints, only the two who are or were Sisters are known to have fought alongside the Sororitas - Keeler predates them by four thousand years and Sabbat teamed up with the Gaurd Well, that makes more sense then Damn heat is making thinking even the most basic of thoughts difficult Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Well, that makes more sense then Damn heat is making thinking even the most basic of thoughts difficult Try fighting in full medieval armor for a few hours in very warm and sunny weather :P Not quite as conditioned as these fancy power armors of 40k. But I know what you mean ;) Anyway, an intriguing topic, hadn't heard of the Imperius stuff etc before. Should read that stuff, but so far haven't read any of the Heresy books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 For those who are interested, here is the passage I am talking about: Quote There, sat in placid splendour on my throne, was the ghost of a murdered god.The god’s face was covered by a mask of shining gold, its features wrenched into a rictus of crying torment. The expression – eyes open, mouth wide, even the parted teeth showing in detailed gold – was a man’s death-scream immortalised in holy metal. Bladed sunrays flared from the edges of the metal face, forming a crest of golden knives.The rest of his manifestation existed in contrast to the dark ostentation of his sacred helm. He was thin, cadaverously so, and wearing a plain toga of imperial white. His skin didn’t commit to paleness or duskiness – it seemed a caramel blend of both, perhaps born from genetics, perhaps stained by the light of a natural sun. Quote ‘You are the Astronomican,’ I said.The golden mask tilted in a nod. ‘I stare into eternity and witness the dance of daemons. I sing forever into the endless night, adding my melody to the Great Game. I am Imperious, the Avatar of the Astronomican. I have come to ask you to turn back.’ Quote ‘You are harming my crew,’ I said to the Solar Priest. ‘These mortals cannot understand your words, and your power wounds them.’‘I have come as the Voice, not as the Warlord. Harm is not my intent.’ It's all from The Talon of Horus. After the Heresy, the Traitors are essentially trapped inside the Eye of Terror. They don't yet have any known safe passage back to realspace. The protagonists of the novel are looking for the Vengeful Spirit (Horus's flagship),which they've been led to believe is hidden somewhere in the Eleusinian Veil - the dust cloud and crone worlds marking the edge of the Eye. To get there they have to traverse the Firetide. Where the light of the Astronomican meets the Eye is called the Firetide - like an immense Warp storm crossed with an epic daemonic battle between the Neverborn of the Eye and fiery angels manifest from the Astronomican. It's this that's keeping the Traitor Legions bottled up in the Eye. Beyond the Firetide are the Radiant Worlds - planets that are bathed in the light of the Astronomican but not burned by it. They plan to bypass the Firetide using a deserted section of the webway. When they leave it, Imperious shows up to warn them off. He's a daemon, to all intents and purposes - a Warp entity created by the psychic energy of the Astronomican. He tells them continuing on this path (which ultimately results in them finding Abaddon and founding the Black Legion) will lead to the end of the Imperium and the damnation of mankind. That goes down well: Lheor, a World Eater, shoots him. In 40k rule terms, he would be daemonic character, maybe a herald or even a greater daemon. The essence of the Emperor's will personified in the Warp. In that instance he was an emissary, sent to try to talk to them out of it. But he suggests that if they ignore him, next time they meet he will come as "fire and fury": Quote ‘My place is to ask you to turn back, and so I ask it once more.’ We looked at each other, we warriors from a handful of rival Legions, not understanding the spirit’s words. ‘Why?’ asked Telemachon. His face mask was a visage of serenity opposing the Solar Priest’s image of wracking pain. ‘What threat are we to you?’ ‘You are no threat to me, for I am simply a bridge in the Song. You are a threat to the Singer.’ ‘And if we don’t turn back?’ Lheor asked. ‘Then the Song’s next verse will be fire and fury, not wisdom and mercy. It will come – not now, not soon, but in time and in force. The Fate you seek to engineer cannot be allowed to come to pass.’ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goonbandito Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 I always like the idea that the Living Saints are actually not that different from any other Warp Creature, and that the Imperium's collective beliefs in the God-Emperor are what sustain His and their presence. Just like the Chaos Gods. The implication that the Saints are similar in nature to a Chaos Demon, and the whole mirror-imaging of the Ecclesiarchy promoting for the God-Emperor what Chaos Cults do for the Chaos Gods I think works really well in the setting. I like the idea of grey areas, rather than Black/White scenarios. I dont think the Warp is fundamentally bad - it just is. The Chaos Gods wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the collective emotions of humanity that sustain them, so can something that is so inherent to human nature truly be called evil or is it just the nature of the beast? But that's just like my opinion man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted July 5, 2015 Author Share Posted July 5, 2015 The Warp is just a tool to be molded into shape. A tool is not inherently good or bad. It is the wielder. The 'singers' are the ones being good and bad, in this case the Emperor and Chaos Gods. But even that is relative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Indeed... That raises the possibility that Living Saints have blessings like the Chaos boon table, with Celestine being a kind of Daemon Prince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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