General Discussion

[Sigismund229]

They aren't meeting in the webway. They're meeting on a planet called Elysium

[bluntblade]

OK. Well, in that case, perhaps describe the immediate space within which they meet. Perhaps something like the "ruin" from Fulgrim, just so it's easier to picture the conditions of the fight. Then you can use the environment to give the fight more of a character.

 

Btw, I wouldn't call any Primarch an "elder" brother to the rest. If Daer'dd's anything, he's Alexandros' mightiest brother. Also, Azus will always have his beloved scimitar with him. Also Perkenas' title is Knyaz, it's not his surname and as a Warbringer, he'd be trying to kill Irvin.

 

Just as a personal preference, I'd slim down some of the descriptions. At this stage in the story, the origin of Jackal's jaw will be well known, and describing how he got it threatens to clutter up the passage.

 

One final thing - the Lightning Bearers change their colours when they become the Harbingers. It should be in the Reborn thread.

[Sigismund229]

OK. Well, in that case, perhaps describe the immediate space within which they meet. Perhaps something like the "ruin" from Fulgrim, just so it's easier to picture the conditions of the fight. Then you can use the environment to give the fight more of a character.

 

Btw, I wouldn't call any Primarch an "elder" brother to the rest. If Daer'dd's anything, he's Alexandros' mightiest brother. Also, Azus will always have his beloved scimitar with him. Also Perkenas' title is Knyaz, it's not his surname and as a Warbringer, he'd be trying to kill Irvin.

 

Just as a personal preference, I'd slim down some of the descriptions. At this stage in the story, the origin of Jackal's jaw will be well known, and describing how he got it threatens to clutter up the passage.

 

One final thing - the Lightning Bearers change their colours when they become the Harbingers. It should be in the Reborn thread.

Hmm right. Shall go check it.

And yes I know that he's a Warbringer and so should be trying to kill Irvin. But I wanted to point out that it's become a mayhemish free for all in which he might be like "well techincally he's an enemy but he's also fighting the greater enemy so I don't want him to die yet. I'll kill him later but for now". Hence they fight each other when they can in between fighting deamons but then save each other when they are fighting deamons.

And I did describe the space. It's just rolling green fields.

Hmm. I'll edit in Kynaz being a title rather than surname.

As to Jackels jaw I'm trying to explain how he got it so that someone new to BotL or who's forgotten how he did will know.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Sigismund229

[bluntblade]

It wouldn't hurt to throw in something like "the fight between the Astartes was suddenly forgotten as the Warp creatures swarmed them."

 

Thing is, if we write every piece trying to explain to new readers, we'll get bogged down. At this stage in the chronology, I suggest we work in the basis that an earlier piece will exist in time, and that will have the info (indeed, we have an account of him losing it during the first Qarith incursion). Otherwise I'd be explaining Nibaasiniiwi's metal hands every time he appears.

 

So they're just fighting in the fields? Part of me just feels Icarion would have a greater sense of occasion, but just a field could serve nicely if you highlight that the fight lacks any shape as a consequence, especially once the daemons are involved.

[Kelborn]

With the coming return of the canon Primarchd, some of them switching fealties rumorwise and Vulkan participating in the War of the Beast, GW is heavily focused on them to make more money. :/

 

Though I will wait for more, I fear that I won't be happy with how things will turn out.

 

I'm curios: What are the fates of our Primarchs besides death? Will they vanish as well? Will they return? Will they stay?

[simison]

 

I'm curios: What are the fates of our Primarchs besides death? Will they vanish as well? Will they return? Will they stay?

 

I made a list at one point that half-haphazardly guessed various fates, involving crippling injuries, stasis bombs, horrendous experiments gone awry, and Mikhal said Gwal disappears into the Webway.

[Chief Captain Redd]

We've had some open contemplation about Primarchs fates in the End Times. And obviously finishing the Insurrection is our only goal at this point; but do want to jump directly from Insurrection/Scouring to End Times? Personally I'm in favour of it once we reach it, and then perhaps Simison, Blunt, and I could write an events time line covering noted big events in the inbetwixt? With more focus being put on the 41st and 42nd millennia by all creators. If we do the End Times though it should be a strong return to the mythological feel of the Great Crusade and Insurrection in my humble opinion, that's why I think part of the Heresy is doing so well is that feel of Grandeur sometimes lacks in the 41st which I think many want when the history of 40k is of Gods and Monsters not just Imperial bureaucracy.

Sorry for my rambling.

[simison]

Keeping this brief, I've mentioned to Grifft how I want there to be several major events between 30k & 40k instead of a simple jump from one to the other.

[bluntblade]

We could play a bit with which races become a threat. Perhaps the greater progress of the Crusade in our version leaves the Rak'gol able to carve out empires of their own at the expense of the Eldar and Orks?

 

But anyway, I have a question. Given that the Webway is totalled by Magnus in canonverse, how does it survive Travier's ritual?

[Kelborn]

yeah, no direct jump please. We need events to introduce Necrons, Tau and Nids ;)

[Chief Captain Redd]

Fair enough, I guess I'm just antsy, I've been in the Canonverse waiting for End Times to happen since the 90's lol.

[Skalpynock]

I remember talking about a War of the False Primarch in M33/34, unrelated to its cannonverse equivalent.

[Nomus Sardauk]

I remember talking about a War of the False Primarch in M33/34, unrelated to its cannonverse equivalent.

Oh yeah, I recall that! The Jade General finally succeeds in creating a new "Primarch", albiet one highly dependant on regular gene-therapy and chemical treatments by Jade to prevent his physiology from breaking down, but he's the Suzerainity's crowning scientific achievement.

[bluntblade]

A scene did pop into my head out today, concerning the End Times. Just the idea that the few remaining Original Rangers (Nux, Odyssalas, someone called Altai whose Legion is undecided, but I'm thinking Warbringer , Void Eagle or Godslayer if possible, survive Terra, with maybe one or two others) are seen in some prophet's vision of the final battle. Quoting Tennyson, naturally.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Uhmmm....as reincarnation okay. But 10000 years later for a primarch to reenter the battle okay. Bjt a simple space marine? There was a story with a surviving salamander. But he was isolated and fused with his armor. Combatwise he wouldnt be able to help. If all those rangers become dreads okay. But so? Not really plausible

[Skalpynock]

Unless Altai is a dreadnought, it's gonna be pretty hard for him to be a loyalist Godslayer.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Hey, don't be a zombiist. Not every zombie ist per se evil.

[Sigismund229]

blunt, this better?

Alexandros could have seen the serenity of this place even without his sixth sense. With its rolling green fields and large, clean rivers this world reminded him of tales told on his home world of an edylic paradise named Elysium. Only those who had lived virtuos lives were allowed to pass through its gates and escape the eternal cycle of re-encarnation and suffering but once they did they knew no more strife. They would know only peace. Perhaps that was why the eldar had chosen to settle here he mused. Much good it did them. This world had been brought into compliance 6 years ago by the 1,903^rd expedition and a task force of Berserkers of Uran. The entire eldar colony had been butchered without mercy by Raktra's sons, who had employed their typical uncompromising aproach to what compliance meant. If you looked carefully, you could still see scars of it here and there, the odd remnants of a shell hole or a hole in the earth from where a drop pod had landed. Sometimes you even saw skulls that looked to be screaming out in silent protest or other elements of bone resting in the tall grass. Say what you would about them, the VII^th were thorough.

 

Without meaning to, thoughts of the Berserkers prompted Alexandros' mind to wander once more to his reasons for being upon this world. His brother had requested a truce, a parlay and then requested a meeting with Alexandros upon a world of his choosing. Each of them could be accompanied by two of their brothers and each primarch by a squad from their legion as well as their first captain and equerry. Standing a respectful distance behind Alexandros were the two brothers he had elected to be accompanied by: Azus and Yucahu. This choice only served to show the loneliness that Alexandros had felt since the Day of Revelation. Since then, he had been forced to count many of his brothers amongst his enemies, while Hectarion had fallen into a black rage from which Alexandros was unable to draw him out. He fought more ferociously than ever but outside of battle he was mirthless, driven on only by a thirst for vengeance while Pionius and Daer'dd...Alexandros couldn't bring himself to think of their fates. Daer'dd, his mightiest brother and one of his staunchest allies was now gone and Pionius hadn't been seen since his clash with Morro upon Untara Prime. That left Niklaas, Azus and Yucahu. While they were his brothers and he loved them for it, Alexandros couldn't say that he had ever been particularly close to any of them and Niklaas had been preparing Terra's defences, so Azus and Yucahu it was.

 

 Yucahu stood to Alexandros' right, standing with his arms crossed and ramrod still as though he were on parade. Azus stood to Alexandros' left, slouching slightly and seeming to fade into the non-existent shadows, although still exuding an aura from which Alexandros could tell he was on full alert and was ready to spring into action at any time. Over his shoulder he had slung his rifle and he had a hunting knife the size of a normal human's sword which he was fiddling with in his left hand. Behind the three primarchs were their bodyguards, Azus' and Alexandros' resplendent in purple whilst Yucahu's Void Eagles bronze armour seemed to shine in the sun whilst above each bodyguard fluttered its legion's banner.

 

Walking towards them were three more primarch sized figures. In the centre was Icarion in his bronze and jet black armour, each of his movements graceful, fluid and unhurried. Behind him were Jackel, walking like a human although having an unmistakeably predatory air added to by his adamantium jaw, and Kosja, each of his movements looking calculated to gain the most amount of ground with minimal effort and his stance rigid, much like Yucahu's. Behind them came their warriors. Icarion's were still the proud I^st that Alexandros had served alongside and commanded on so many battlefields, their pearl white armour blindingly bright in the mid-day sun. Jackels seemed to shuffle and pace behind their father, prompting the image of old Terran hunting dogs to come unbidden into Alexandros' mind. The more he looked at them the more the analogy seemed apt and he even imagined he could see them sniffing the air. In utter contrast to this, Kosja's marched in a single disciplined block, careful to stay in step with one another as if they were marching to the beat of a drum.

 

When Icarion and his party reached Alexandros and his, nobody said anything for the first few moments. They simply stared at each other, brothers who they now needed to treat as enemies. The silence was finally broken by Icarion when he said “I never wished for us to meet this way Alex. We are brothers. We should be fighting together, not against one another”.

 

 “We still can” said Alexandros “Surrender. Lay down your arms, swear fealty to father and you will be given a full pardon”.

 

 

Icarion shook his head and said “I can’t do that Alex, for all our sakes. When was the last time you saw father?”.

 

 

“What does that have to do with anything?” growled Yucahu.

 

 Icarion flashed him one of those smiles of his. They were rare but when they happened any hostility or anger you might have felt towards him vanished. He said “Humour me. When was it?”.

 

Alexandros sighed and said “The Qarith Triumph, when he made me Warmaster” and still, after all these years, some part deep within him screamed out When he should have named you Warmaster. As he said this, Alexandros saw Icarion’s eyes fill with sadness, as though those words had just confirmed something that Icarion had thought was true but had been desperately trying to deny.

 

 

“More than 46 years ago” Icarion whispered “You see Alex. This is why I rebelled”.

 

 “Because we no longer saw the Emperor?” asked Yucahu, his confusion betrayed by his voice.

 

 “Because he no longer cares about us as he once did. If he ever did” said Icarion “You see now? He abandoned us. After 200 years, he just left. What difference would a few more decades have made? None. Yet he left anyway. We are nothing to him, just pawns in his games to be disposed of once we are no longer useful”.

 

 

“What are you talking about?” Alexandros asked.

 

 Icarion looked away and said “You have the sight. Don’t tell me you haven’t seen it”.

 

 

“Seen what?” Alexandros asked. Icarion stayed silent for several moments until Alexandros asked again “Seen what?”.

 

 

Icarion’s head snapped up and he said “Madrigal burning! My dead sons piled in heaps as Custodians lay waste to the Astral Colleges. The Emperor standing on a podium of dead Lightning Bearers and proclaiming final victory”. This time it was Alexandros’ turn to turn away from his brother’s gaze. He hadn’t seen those visions but instead he had seen himself and his legion growing old and starting to wither away until finally, when the last of them had wasted away to nothing, Delos was obliterating by the Emperor’s fleets and the statues of he and his brothers on Terra were removed and ground to dust. Over the years, as the Great Crusade grew closer to its conclusion, visions of that kind had arrived with increasing frequency. They now haunted Alexandros even when he didn’t look to see into the future. Turning back to Icarion he said “I too have received disturbing visions of the future. But you know as well as I that what the sight allows us to see can be deceptive. They could just as well be apparitions sent by the warp. Or it could just be one of a million different futures”.

Icarion shook his head “No vision I have had with this frequency has ever been wrong”.

 

 Alexandros smiled and said “There’s a first time for everything”.

 

 Icarion returned his smile but he couldn’t cover the sadness in his eyes as he said “Yes. But not this time and I cannot allow this future to come to pass. I won’t allow us to have spent all this blood for nothing Alex. I love my brothers. I would do anything, kill anyone, to stop this future from coming to pass”.

At this, Alexandros saw Azus stiffen significantly and his right hand start to twitch towards his rifle while Yucahu began to reach for his spear from his back and from the aura coming off of him, Alexandros could tell he was about to launch himself at Icarion, promises of safe passage be damned. Stay your hand Yucahu Alexandros snarled into his mind. Even after he did so, Yucahu’s hands stayed where they were on his spear and so Alexandros snarled into Yucahu’s mind again, saying Stay. Your. Hand. Can I make it any simpler for you brother? “It would appear we are at an impasse then. You know I can’t allow you to do that”.

 

 Icarion smiled sadly again and said “I know. I admire your loyalty to the Emperor” then turning to Yucahu and Azus he said “All of your loyalties to the Emperor. No matter what happens, know that”.

 

He then turned to Alexandros and said “The reason I asked for this negotiation was to make a request regarding the webway. It’s there that humanities future lies, no matter what the outcome of this war, and so I would like to leave it as it is so that we run no risk of damaging what work the Emperor has begun upon it. Let us agree that neither of us shall use it, leave it as neutral ground”.

 

Alexandros nodded and said “I agree. My forces shall not use it”.

 

Icarion nodded curtly before he stepped forward and embraced Alexandros. While it appeared to be nothing more than a brother’s embrace, as it happened memories flooded Alexandros’ mind, memories of the times he and Icarion had fought together, memories of his discovery by his father and Icarion as well as the emotions Icarion had felt in those moments and the sadness he now felt. When he and Alexandros stepped back from each other, Alexandros’ head still reeling from the emotion and memories he had just taken in, Icarion said “Farewell little brother. We shall meet again” and then, in Alexandros’ mind he said but never again as brothers. You have seen it as well as I have as Kosja stepped forward and clasped Alexandros’ vambrace in his hand, a motion Alexandros’ returned, and said “I wish you good fortune in the battles to come Alex”. Then Icarion and his party turned and began to head back to their stormbirds. As they did, Alexandros thought he saw tears beginning to form in Icarion’s eyes. And then his whole world went white. 

 

White engulfed Alexandros’ vision. As his vision began to clear, he heard Irvin Ruel roaring “PROTECT THE WARMASTER! WARDENS, TO THE WARMASTER! PROTECT THE WARMASTER!” and Yucahu bellowing at the Void Eagles to kill the traitors. Under these, he heard Icarion calling for his Lightning Bearers to charge the enemy. “NO” Alexandros called out. This can’t be happening he thought We met for negotiation not war. His calls were lost in the mayhem and he soon heard bolter shots ring out. As his vision began to clear, Alexandros saw a swirling miasma of colours from which dozens of small, cackling creatures and larger creatures who were an angry red and had horns emerging from the tops of their heads and wielded great bronze swords. All around them were glowing fires which constantly changed colour and yet somehow encapsulating all of the colours Alexandros had ever seen at once. The warp. There was no possible way in which this could be anything else. The only time Alexandros had ever seen anything like it was upon the sand dunes of Preaxor when he and his legion had fought legion upon legion of the warp entities who had been summoned by a deranged shaman.

 

 With his vision rapidly clearing, Alexandros picked up Aegis and drew the Spear of Terra from where it rested on his back and roared “THE EMPEROR PROTECTS!” at which his sons bellowed back “WE ARE HIS SHIELD!”. Alexandros broke into a run towards the deamons emerged from the warp gate and roared “THE EMPEROR STRIKES!” at which the Halycon Wardens, who Alexandros could hear breaking into a run behind him, the difference between the volume of their footfalls telling him how far behind him each of the Halycon Wardens were, responded with a roar of “WE ARE HIS BLADE!” and finally, as he reached the deamons and began stabbing and slicing with the Spear of Terra as he punched forward with Aegis, Alexandros bellowed out at the top of his lungs “THE EMPEROR GUIDES!” and the Halycon Wardens responded with “WE ARE HIS SERVANTS!”. Confusion reigned supreme. One minute two warriors could be attempting to kill each other, the next they were fighting back to back against the deamons swarming out of the warp rift. Time began to lose all meaning for Alexandros as he wove a path of death through the deamons. He saw Raiden Athrawes fighting with all the skill and ferocity of a veteran. He saw Irvin Ruel have his life saved by Perkenas, who parried the combat blade of a Stygian Jackal who was about to knife Irvin Ruel in the neck as Irvin sliced apart a deamon with his lightning claws. He saw a Void Eagle and a Warbringer grappling on the ground, the Warbringer’s hands around the Void Eagle’s throat as the Void Eagle launched punches into the Warbringer’s exposed face.

 

Alexandros fought back to back with Icarion, stabbing a deamon of Khorne who had been launching a slash at Icarion’s head as Icarion decapitated one who had been cutting downwards towards Alexandros’ neck. At some point, Icarion and Alexandros became separated and Alexandros found himself once again alone as he scythed his way through the deamons. Before he knew it he found himself against Jackel, who gripped Alexandros’ shoulders and drew his head back to tear a chunk of flesh out of Alexandros’ exposed face and neck. However, before he could, a bullet thudded into his shoulder and was quickly followed by another to Jackel’s arm and leg. Punching forward, Alexandros knocked Jackel to the ground and followed up with a thrust by the Spear of Terra into Jackel’s thigh. Glancing behind him, he saw Azus with his rifle shouldered and his eye up against its scope with smoke curling up from the barrel, already sweeping to find another target. Kosja then smashed into Alexandros, knocking him aside before Alexandros, Jackel and Kosja were once again swamped with deamons and forced to look to their own defence.

 

 

Alexandros leapt, swerved and stabbed his way through the bloody free for all that had erupted. He saw Yucahu floored by Kosja, who was raising his maul to deliver the killing blow, and leapt to Yucahu’s aid, putting Aegis between Yucahu and Kosja’s maul before spinning around to stab and deamon through its throat. He didn’t know how much time he had spent in this bloody brawl. Ten minutes? An hour? Ten hours? Someone could have told him he’d fought for a day and a night non-stop and he’d believe them. Then he heard Icarion’s voice, a psychic shout, in his head. Alexandros! One of your warriors! The standard bearer! Looking around the battlefield, Alexandros quickly found the Halycon Warden Icarion was referring to, Sergeant Memnon. He was shaking violently and ripping off his helmet, blood pouring out of his eyes. Three other Halycon Wardens, brothers Nestor, Sarpedonus and Ajax had formed a circle around Memnon, Nestor picking up the banner that Memnon had dropped. Alexandros saw Icarion charging towards the small circle of marines, shoving any astartes who got in his way out of the way and with Raiden Athrawes and another Lightning Bearer who Alexandros didn’t know the name of fighting off any deamons who attempted to strike at Icarion. Seeing what Icarion feared, Alexandros set off at a run towards the marines, two Lightning Bearers forming up beside him to help clear his path. “NESTOR, SARPEDONUS, AJAX! STEP AWAY FROM THE SERGEANT!” Alexandros roared over the vox. The three Halycon Wardens reacted with commendable speed, beginning to move away as soon as Alexandros ordered them. However, it was already too late. Barely seconds after Alexandros had issued the order, Memnon’s eyes exploded from his skull in a cloud of blood and with a bestial roar, a greater deamon clawed its way into reality. 

Edited July 17, 2016 by Sigismund229

[Hesh Kadesh]

It's not a major thing but we still need names for a  Lightning Bearer, Void Eagle, Berzerker of Uran, Drowned, Stygian Jackal and Ghost Walker to be members of the Hands. If the creators of those legions have time, could they possibly give us one for their legion's representative?

For the Drowned, Cetuseus Ixion. A Recon Company Captain (unless you've already got one of those). Recon Armour, Cognis Signum, Nuncio Vox, Combi-Grenade Launcher with Special Ammunition and many variant grenades taken from the various forces available to the Imperium (things like Incendiary, Gas, Frag, Krak, and Haywire). Vigilator, so gets access to Sabotage Skill.

 

Not too fussed about how to get him to come to the Hands; he can either be coerced, or do so willingly.

[Raktra]

The Hands?

[AlphariusOmegon108]

So I am BACK in  holland... Let the hobbying commence...

[Sigismund229]

The Hands?

A bodyguard of one marine from each legion to guard Malcador

[bluntblade]

Uhmmm....as reincarnation okay. But 10000 years later for a primarch to reenter the battle okay. Bjt a simple space marine? There was a story with a surviving salamander. But he was isolated and fused with his armor. Combatwise he wouldnt be able to help. If all those rangers become dreads okay. But so? Not really plausible

Should've said I was thinking they'd vanish a la the Wolves' 13th company, rather than being present for the duration.

 

Sigi, that piece works much better now

Edited July 17, 2016 by bluntblade

[Raktra]

 

The Hands?

A bodyguard of one marine from each legion to guard Malcador

Ahh, gotcha. I'll muck about with something.

[MikhalLeNoir]

 

Uhmmm....as reincarnation okay. But 10000 years later for a primarch to reenter the battle okay. Bjt a simple space marine? There was a story with a surviving salamander. But he was isolated and fused with his armor. Combatwise he wouldnt be able to help. If all those rangers become dreads okay. But so? Not really plausible

Should've said I was thinking they'd vanish a la the Wolves' 13th company, rather than being present for the duration.

Sigi, that piece works much better now

 

Even then, isn't it a bit far fetched? I like to keep my chars alive too but having the chance to create entire new ones who stand in the shadows of the old and try to step out of it is a cool project for the future.