Alternate Legion - The Scions Hospitalier

[Nomus Sardauk]

We can / should use them for the Genesis Legion. But that's pretty much it for them.

 

Agreed, possibly also for conversion into Iron Bears with their Mk.III armour as well but that's it.

[MikhalLeNoir]

I use them AS grüß als marines. Think mk3 will be doable.

[Chief Captain Redd]

Sorry didn't see this sooner; Ironbound Slayers are not anything near common place in the VIth, less than 0.3% of the Legion are Ironbound Slayers; they're members of the Iron Bears that have become obsessive with pushing themselves through biotech and cybernetics. So yeah one on one, they're better, but they're also outnumbered by Genesis Marines like 500 to 1.

And they're not something you can just pump out, it's taken decades of the finest engineering and augmetic surgery to reach where they are.

[Kelborn]

But still...we're talking about the following:

 

The Emperor created the Astartes, besides the Custodians and the Primarchs, they embody the pinnacle of his work, right?

 

In canon, we got the Primaris, which are (after 10K years of research, etc.) about 30% more powerful than normal Astartes. In doing so, Cawl seemed to surprassed the Emperor's work. Poor reasoning aside, this is what we got right now in canon.

 

Now, we agreed that the Primaris would make a good Genesis Legion, which itself was invented by Kozja, etc. That makes the Genesis Astartes more powerful than normal ones, right?

 

If you insist to let your Ironbound Slayers be as powerful (or in one on one engagements even more as you've said it), that would put them on the same level as the Custodians, 'cause, you know, Custodians > all.

 

Usually, the Iron Bears are on the same generation of Astartes like the Halcyon Wardens, the Berzerkers, the Scions, the Predators and so on.

Thus, there is no reasonable root of why the Ironbound Slayers are "better" than the rest of their generation.

 

Battle-hardened veterans, equipped with the best gear? Sure, go for it.

Being enhanced and augmented, making them better than a force of "Super" Astartes? No. Imho it feels wrong, mate.

 

Maybe the Bears are a bit bigger and thus a bit stronger than the average Astartes, enabling them to withstand a Genesis Marine a bit longer. But defeating them 1v1? Not really.

 

I'm just trying to keep everything balanced.

 

Have a look on the canon 'verse. As far as I know, the only sort of Astartes, which were as mighty as the Custodians or sometimes even more powerful were the Thousand Sons. Inferno states that the Sekhmet were more than able to deal with the approaching Custodians and if it weren't for the Sisters of Silence, the could have hold the Custodians advance.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Chief Captain Redd]

They're stronger and tougher than a normal Astartes yes, but they're not better trained fighters at all, they're at the same capabilities of an Astartes of their age. They're not super Astartes, Other than their armour their base load out is definitely not elite (a combat shield, bolt pistol, and a chain axe). They might last a few seconds longer against a Custode because they're tougher, but they're likely to do die before landing a hit because they're slower.

 

Edit: that's the last I'm saying of it here, if you wish to continue we can move it to the Iron Bears thread.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Chief Captain Redd

[bluntblade]

With Antonidas out of the picture on Untara, I suggest he has a decent role in a Book 2 or 3 campaign.

[bluntblade]

Consolidated, revised, had some new ideas:

Unit and Formation Structure Within the Legion
The XIX^th made a virtue of flexibility, and consequently maintained a relatively sparse command structure. Their stratification ended at the Battalion level, with task forces being drawn up for each campaign and command given to the captain best suited to the task at hand.

With their preference for flexibility and mobile units, Tactical, Assault and Despoiler Squads made up the majority of a typical company. Breachers generally served to defend vessels against boarding actions and secure objectives during assaults, while Terminators were used to spearhead assaults against fortified objectives. Individual squads of Depthstriders and Phantoms were dispersed throughout the Legion as necessity dictated, only assembled in full to meet the direst threats. Indeed, the Depthstriders only fought in four theatres as a single unit over the course of the Crusade, the most recent being the final assault on Qarith Prime. Each time the result was the utter destruction of their enemies.

Given their close relationship with the Legio Cybernetica, the Scions' Techmarines also included a large number of Praevians, who controlled many of the Legion’s bound automata. As such Arkytes, the “Atsakyrios”, held a post among the Scions’ Triumvirate of Forge Lords, and therefore a seat on the Synedrion. Along with the Legion’s Librarians, these officers are largely concentrated among the Déka Battalions. As noted previously, the Apothecarion was exceptionally large, and Apothecaries were dispersed throughout the Legion’s companies.

Task forces varied extensively in size and composition. Moreover they were liable to gain or lose Battalions as dictated by the needs of different task forces. This obliged the Scions to maintain an extensive body of Munitorum personnel to keep track and ensure that each fleet was adequately supplied. It also gave rise to a tendency among senior captains to adopt a flagship for their own core forces; the complement of the Hell’s Heart being largely line companies rather than those of the Legion command.

The Scions therefore existed as a constantly shifting collection of fleets, lacking the close ties nurtured by systems such as the Clans of the Crimson Lions, and instead they relied on the warrior lodges promoted by Alexandros to instil true fellowship across company and Battalion lines. While other Legions' structures proved more efficient with regard to supply and command, the Scions’ reorganisation fashioned them into one of the most adaptable forces in the Imperium.

Command Hierarchy
While an informal seniority of experience and achievement existed, the 1^st through 10^th Captains - known as the Déka within the Legion - formally represented the highest echelon save for the Primarch. They typically took charge of large expeditions when Pionus could not lead personally. They included First Captain Antonidas and Fifth Captain Mytikas, who led the Phantom and Depthstrider elites respectively. Along with Inna Santor, the Legion’s venerable Dreadnoughts, the Master of the Apothecarion and other specialist officers, these captains formed the Synedrion which advised Pionus.

While the Déka served in roles roughly analogous to Lord Commanders, at times it became necessary to spread the Legion more thinly, and not every campaign could be overseen by one of the ten. To overcome this potential obstacle, the position of Theatre Commander was instituted by Pionus. It was a temporary role which would either be allocated by one of the Déka or Pionus himself, or in their absence, by a vote of the captains.

This system was meant to ensure that the most suitable commander was selected for any given challenge. It also served to foster a mentality in which the Scions would gladly defer to one another on this basis and combat the danger of excessive pride in their officers, a problem in the days of the old XIX^th. A side effect of the custom was that specialist officers, including breacher, assault and recon captains, found themselves in overall command roles far more often than their counterparts in other Legions, even advancing to the lofty heights of the Déka. However, the refusal to use the variety of ranks found elsewhere in the Legiones Astartes did cause misunderstandings and friction at times, with the captains or Lord Commanders of other Legions chafing at the notion of sharing command with or even fighting under a "mere captain".

The blurred line between praetors and captains had little effect on consuls, who typically served under the master of their Battalion. As with every other member of the Legion, their assignment could be arbitrarily altered by the designated Theatre Commander, although the system by which these were chosen encouraged restraint in such matters. An officer who exercised his temporary powers tactlessly or unnecessarily would be subject to the displeasure of his superiors, or his fellows when the votes were cast for command in a later theatre. A few captains are known to have been informally punished in this way; when achievement counted in place of formal rank, the threat of it being withheld proved a potent incentive not to antagonise one’s peers. A system of appeal was maintained to ensure that disputes did not fester. Any complaints by captains were directed to members of the Déka or, in rare cases, the Primarch.

Pionus himself was unusual among his brothers for not maintaining a formal bodyguard. Instead he took a combination of Phantom Assault Marines, veteran squads or Depthstrider Terminators, depending on the circumstances of a battle. This approach extended to the forces he gathered for his own campaigns; four of the Déka served under him during the Laer War, with the rest leading battalions elsewhere.

War Disposition
On the Day of Revelation the Scions stood at 160,000 Astartes, dispersed across several fleets. Typically Pionus kept three captains of the Déka at his side, rotating them as circumstances dictated. The rest all led individual Expeditionary Fleets, often delegating command of smaller branches to less senior captains. It is noted that, although no Battalion exceeded 10,000 Astartes in size, each Déka captain maintained a core group of battalions at his side. These fleets were augmented to varying degrees by maniples of automata, often directed by the Legion's Praevians.

The size and composition of each Battalion varied somewhat according to the preference of its leader. For example, Diokles amassed more armoured units than any of his fellows, while Bepheros was known to deploy an unusually large number of seeker squads. Antonidas preferred to command relatively small forces, a result of his penchant for flexibility and his frosty demeanour.

Similarly, Inna Santor commanded a small fleet of her own, usually alongside her brother, overseeing Apothecarion detachments to all other Expeditions undertaken by the Scions. These were usually despatched to any theatres where particularly dangerous or otherwise “interesting” enemies had been encountered. The Master of the Forge, on the other hand, remained on Iona unless he was required on active duty. This only occurred in especially drawn-out campaigns such as the Qarith War.

Dreadnoughts were relatively few in number among the Scions, as underwater actions often made it impossible to save a wounded Legionary. This was what drove the Scions to secure such large numbers of automata. After the Yannatar campaign, they gained the Legio Gojira and Knights of House Toho, vastly increasing their strength. These came with their own powerful taghmata, and the Scions operated in tandem with several Army regiments.

 

The Legion flotilla was respectably powerful, numbering roughly 900 vessels with just over 100 of these being capital-class, but otherwise conformed to the norm for a Space Marine Legion. Pionus maintained a wide range of classes of battleships and cruisers, the only unifying factor being a preference for speed and manoeuvrability. These were in turn supported by the ships of Yamatar.

The thinly spread nature of the Legion would save them from total devastation on the Day of Revelation. Although The Drowned took a murderous toll on the force that accompanied Pionus to Untara, less than half the Legion was present. Other ambushes were devised, but most were foiled by the Scions. Antonidas was targeted by a cell of Dune Serpents who had pledged themselves to Icarion, only to overcome his attackers. Realising the situation, he swiftly rallied the various fleets and took charge of the Legion while Pionus was incapacitated. Over the following decades, they would make the enemy rue their failure.

Edited May 28, 2019 by bluntblade

[simison]

"...and composition[,] and were..."

 

"...the 1st through [to] 10th Captains..."

 

"... the Primarch[,] and typically..."

 

"...not fester[,] with any..."

 

"Yannatar campaign[,] they gained..."

 

"...to Icarion,[ ]only to..."

~~~

 

Love the positive example of the Warrior Lodges.

 

I also like how the Scions' adaptable ways can clash with the other Legions. 

 

I see nothing else that needs to be addressed, unless Slips notices something amiss.

[Slips]

Narp! S'all good to me.

[bluntblade]

Fixes made.

[bluntblade]

What would Mecha Pionus use for a bodyguard unit? Dreadnoughts? Knights?

[Nomus Sardauk]

Just to clarify, Pionus may be a wraith-esque construct but he's not actually an Eldar Wraithknight, right? Cause Wraithknights still require a living pilot and having a Primarch's soul in an Eldar warmachine feels wrong and out-of-place to me.

 

I imagine the Eldar would still have a hand in building his new body but it could be a joint colab by Alexandros's Techmarines (maybe with a little help from Malcador) and Eldrad's Bonesingers, resulting some new manner of unique Dread. I imagine it like a Telemon-size Contemptor but sleeker and more lithe looking, complete with manevuring thrusters for underwater combat.

[bluntblade]

I was thinking Toho might take a hand as well. Perhaps the Scions are cut off from Terra in the wake of the Drowned's attack and forced to withdraw to their own territory.

[simison]

I'm not aware of any details regarding wraith-Pionus, but I do like your idea, San.

[bluntblade]

There should be some in this thread. Believe Hec was meant to be involved but I don't think that works any more.

 

My understanding was that it was the size of an Imperial Knight, though maybe that's overshooting.

Edited September 9, 2017 by bluntblade

[bluntblade]

My notes on Pionus' mecha form:

- He's a monstrous or even monstrous creature, so bigger than a dread

- His claws were originally crafted by the Lions and Bears, respectively - not sure that works any more given circumstances (I reckon the forges of Toho or Gojira are our best bet)

- We might want to give him some more dakka

[Nomus Sardauk]

In regards to the dakka, perhaps the Eldar could contribute a Pulsar-esque energy weapon for both standard and underwater combat?

 

EDIT: Ohhh, how about a Wraithblade Trident to boot?

Edited September 10, 2017 by SanguiniusReborn

[bluntblade]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311978-general-discussion/page-25?do=findComment&comment=4172677

 

From this, it looks like we're aiming for something Knight-sized with some Contemptorish elements. Going over circumstances with Pionus getting crippled in the Second Solar War, Kel has given us some handy options by creating House Toho.

[Slips]

Yeah, now that I've seen the Telemon and the Custodian Dreads in general, thats definitely more of the direction I want to bring WraithPionus down; his previous form had him essentially be a Wraith-Like Skeleton Encased in Contemptor Dreadnought Armour so Imperial Shapes and edges/profile but with SOME hints of eldar poking through.

 

So, with new info and stuff coming to light a few changes:

• At most, hes as big as a Telemon Dreadnought; SLIGHTLY bigger at most. Being Knight-sized seems inappropriate.

For Reference.

• I'm down with him being given a Wraithblade Trident maybe have it's middle prong be a miniaturized/bastardized version of an Eldar Pulsar Weapon kinda like the Custodian Dread's Spear. A Sonic Lance inside the weapon even work.
• Using a Telemon-like chassis lets us/me add a top mounted weapon which wouldnt have been as much of an option before. The size also makes it more feasible instead of having a Knight-Sized frame (that said, plastic 40k Daemon Primarchs are that size ) while remaining larger and more imposing than regular dreads much in the way a Primarch in the flesh is vs Astartes.
• The two Claws might indeed not work anymore.
• If Toho/Gojira are going to commit stuff then we can maybe incorporate some more sea-beast stylings to the overall frame.

 

As to the question of Bodyguard, I attempted to sorta answer it with the 2nd Scions RoW with all the Dreadnought and Cybernetica Spam with Terminators being avail to fill in the gaps.

Edited September 10, 2017 by Slips

[bluntblade]

With Yamatar actually being in the East (fending off Traitor attacks), I'm looking at the options. Gryphonne IV and Obsailes might be our best bets.

[bluntblade]

The not-Knight-size bit makes me sad.

[Kelborn]

Just joining the party again.

 

If you need anything from Toho and / or Gojira, just let me know. :)

 

Though the not-Knight-size part does make me sad as well (I envisioned them knee-deep in water while fighting like some good old Godzilla fights ^^), I believe that it now makes more sense.

 

Having the daemon Magnus and Mortarion in mind, they are actually not as big as Knights, I assume. So daemon Morro had to be scaled down as well. Having him fighting a Telemon sized Pionus sounds better to me.

[Slips]

*cough*

*cough*

[MikhalLeNoir]

Wow. Magnus is really big^^.

 

But i join the sad ranks. Having those 2 gigantic monstrosities face off each other was always one of my highpoints of the Siege.

[Slips]

Theres nothing really stopping us from upsizing him either if it fits better; after all, Cerastus Knights are a thing and the Knight-Porphyrion is Warhound Sized.