Strength of the Unforgiven in the 41st Millennium

[Phoebus]

In a separate topic about Gav Thorpe's The Unforgiven, The Shadow Guard brought up a key reveal of that novel: the fact that only twelve Chapters - including the Dark Angels themselves - sprang from the First Legion as a result of the Second Founding.

 

Prior to this, any estimation of the fighting force of the Unforgiven in the 41st Millennium relied on large heaps of conjecture and guesswork and a few numerical figures from Horus Heresy stories and Forge World tomes. My personal calculations and interpretations of the background material led me to believe that anywhere from forty to sixty (or more) Chapters of the Unforgiven could exist. Obviously that part of The Unforgiven was an eye-opener to me.

 

So, what should an amended estimation of the strength of the Unforgiven look like? 

 

The Sixth Edition Codex: Grey Knights states that “... there were barely four hundred Space Marine Chapters commissioned ...” as part of the Second Founding. The Dark Angels split into twelve Chapters, but at least one of them - the Lions Sable - was subsequently lost to the Eye of Terror. There have been twenty-four Foundings since the Second Founding. As there are said to be around a thousand Chapters in modern times, it stands to reason that roughly twenty-five Chapters are created (on average) per Founding.

 

We are told that the Ultramarines and those Chapters created from their gene-seed amount to two thirds of the Adeptus Astartes. Our Sixth Edition Codex tells us that, "... the Dark Angels have periodically been requested to give gene-seed to found new Chapters"; that the “rumour of ‘Legion-building’ that often persuades the High Lords of Terra to overlook the Dark Angels’ gene-seed when seeking to create further Foundings"; and that “the Dark Angels have certainly been asked to provide gene-seed for later foundings ...” By contrast, our Seventh Edition Codex states that "despite their impeccably pure gene-seed, the Dark Angels have been passed over for many of the Foundings that have created fresh Chapters to fight the Imperium’s wars. Yet from time to time the Adeptus Terra have been forced to permit the Dark Angels another Founding, the records of which have mysteriously vanished shortly afterward."
 

That, I think, is a more positive development over previous background material, which made it seem as if the High Lords rarely looked to the sons of the Lion to found new Chapters.

 

Now, my guess is that if each Founding leads to the creation of twenty-five Chapters (again, a rough average), then it stands to reason that that perhaps nine of those Chapters are created from gene-seed other than that of the Ultramarines. The Space Wolves do not get new Successors for obvious reasons, the Blood Angels are rumored to be plagued by serious afflictions, and the Salamanders are mutants. That leaves us with the Dark Angels, the White Scars, the Imperial Fists, the Iron Hands, and the Raven Guard. I would imagine that, of those, the Imperial Fists likely claim the preponderance of new Chapters after the Ultramarines.

 

I imagine that the Dark Angels' gene-seed was used in perhaps six to eight of the latter (Third through Twenty-Sixth) Foundings. That's nothing more than conjecture on my part, aimed at being in accord with the background text from the Codices.

 

So, including the Disciples of Caliban (who were definitely created in a later Founding) and, perhaps, the Consecrators, I think it's reasonable to assume there are perhaps seventeen to nineteen Chapters of the Unforgiven in total. That's a rough minimum, of course, but I struggle to see how more than twenty to twenty-four Chapters of the Unforgiven could exist in the 41st Millennium.

 

Still a secret Legion, to be sure, but a shadow of their former strength.

Thoughts?

[Deamon Wolf]

Its an interesting premise, the other question is could the unforgiven be running their chapters like the Black Templars i.e. officially only have 1000 marines per chapter but in reality actually have 4 - 5 thousand marines per chapter,

 

I mean looking at the fact that most legions were in the size of 120,000 - 200,000 Marines strong at the start of the Heresy and given the split of the unforgiven then the losses during the fighting across the imperium during the heresy the Dark Angels should have roughly ended up with about 30 - 40 thousand marines

 

that equates to 30 - 40 chapters of unforgiven so if it was me I would say its possible that you are correct but I would say there would be more than 1 secret chapter , or as stated previously each chapter is very much stronger that officially recorded

[Grand Master Belial]

I question the 400 chapters in the 2nd Founding. Unless the Ultras had been retconned, they gave rise to 24 chapters after HH and were the largest legion. Add in the DA's 12 chapters and we haven't broke 50 and these were both large legions. The Salamanders, Raven Guard and Iron Hands were decimated and did not recover for a long time. The Wolves never split. This leaves the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and the White Scars to create over 300 chapters? I think someone is inflating numbers by a factor of four.

[WellSpokenMan]

I thought Ravenwing and Deathwing were kept overstrength by unknown amounts. 

[Tygwyn]

They were until the last codex which seems much firmer on the numbers...

[Magos Valkamar]

They were until the last codex which seems much firmer on the numbers...

 

Which is exactly what we want everyone else to think...

[Dark_Master]

I've always gone off the RPG percentages.

 

You have a 15% chance of being a Dark Angel or successor, so 150 chapters if the fluff original 1000 chapters total.

 

If all Unforgiven have oversized 1st and 2nd, that's a lot of a marines!

 

DM

[Interrogator Stobz]

First point I'd like to make is; NEVER take anything Thorpe writes as even close to logical or correct, he admits to ignoring fluff and writing whatever he likes (TL/DR...He is an idiot ;) )...NEVER!

 

Secondly; I like your earlier calculations P (I can't remember them exactly), they are more in line with the FW HH numbers and non Gav BL HH stuff. This also fits the 400 second Founding info much better, but not perfectly.

We should have had at least 30 in the initial post HH split (the UMs should have had a lot more than 24 even post Calth losses), and we may have had a successor in most of the later foundings but the "records mysteriously disappear" to make it seem less. On that point I think you should had been more generous in your writing above.

 

That would give more than 50 but probably well less than 100 successors out of the 1000 40k total that are from our Legion. That is not bad considering the prevalence of SM successors and that the IF and WS would have a large chunk of the 350ish leftover (RG and IH would probably be the least due to HH losses and your points on the BA,SW, Sallies seem valid).

 

Thirdly; if our geneseed is so good, and is not being used by the HLOT for new Chapters, then we must retain plenty of good and viable seed to keep ourselves at full strength, that in itself is a good basis for a strong 'Legion' ;)

[aura_enchanted]

well assuming a number of say 38 successors over the years at 1000 brothers strong each plus the DA chapter thats equates to roughly 39000 standing battle brothers which is no small number. and when you consider the fact that every brother is currently on his way to the cadian gate right now thats a colossal force, we have massive numbers of land raiders and a trove of relic weapons, ships, and lord knows what locked away its safe to say that we have ample force multiplication on our side.

 

where other legions have forgotten we have remembered and kept close. and its safe to say that if things go down (for reals if you will humor me plugging music cause im like that) we could easily out fight our brothers of the smurfs or the fists based on sheer weight of archeotech firepower. the real question that has yet to be answered is if any of these chapters have been allowed to grow beyond the limit of 1000 or if weve been doing secret foundings from the prying eyes of the imperium. i mean whats to stop the dark angels from simply making their own chapters behind closed doors? for all we know they have founded dozens of chapters without imperial seal of approval and then simply draw one out of the hat everytime we get asked to make a founding. its hardly beyond the capacity of the dark angels and the unforgiven to do this very thing. and while its never been explicitly said its hardly beyond the realm of imagination.

 

we hold STC templates secret, we hold a menagerie of capture heretics prisoner and torture them, we capture said heretics and silence anyone who knows about it that we cant trust. whos to say what the dark angels have and havent done in our storied careers while the imperium has been giving us the shaft because they dont trust us.

[FerociousBeast]

One thing to keep in mind. "Dark Angel successor chapter" does not necessarily equate to "Unforgiven chapter." Angels of Vigilance for example are said to be of Dark Angel stock, but are not part or privy to The Hunt.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

One thing to keep in mind. "Dark Angel successor chapter" does not necessarily equate to "Unforgiven chapter." Angels of Vigilance for example are said to be of Dark Angel stock, but are not part or privy to The Hunt.p

That was after a retcon? Before, the AoV were rumored to be Unforgiven given that they are based on Pervigilium and they strangely always maintain a company garrisoned at all time. http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Angels_of_Vigilance

Also, DA have a story called "Fall of the house of Pervigilium" which they tell to young Scouts.

So while not officially Unforgiven, there's a strong chance they might.

[Phoebus]

I mean looking at the fact that most legions were in the size of 120,000 - 200,000 Marines strong at the start of the Heresy and given the split of the unforgiven then the losses during the fighting across the imperium during the heresy the Dark Angels should have roughly ended up with about 30 - 40 thousand marines

 

All of this is obviously based on conjecture and citations of background material that is often as nebulous as it is contradictory. It goes without saying that the mileage of said background material will vary with the reader. Brother Stobz, for instance, isn't inclined to take Gav Thorpe's word as gospel, and that is certainly his prerequisite. We may never know whether or not Gav's notion of only eleven Successor Chapters' worth of Dark Angels surviving the Scouring was informed by the latest Legion sizes advertised in the Forge World books or not.

 

Grand Master Belial, on 14 Aug 2015 - 12:12 AM, said:

I question the 400 chapters in the 2nd Founding. Unless the Ultras had been retconned, they gave rise to 24 chapters after HH and were the largest legion. Add in the DA's 12 chapters and we haven't broke 50 and these were both large legions. The Salamanders, Raven Guard and Iron Hands were decimated and did not recover for a long time. The Wolves never split. This leaves the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and the White Scars to create over 300 chapters? I think someone is inflating numbers by a factor of four.

 

Again, mileage of the background material will vary with each reader. The Apocrypha of Skaros, which stated only twenty-four Chapters were born of the Ultramarines Legion during the Second Founding, was a piece of background material written well before the decision to retcon the size of the Legions to a number ten times greater. Ultimately, the choice is yours: you can assume the Apocrypha is simply wrong ; or that it really says "240 Chapters" instead of "24" for the Ultramarines Successors; or that it was incorrectly referring to the Chapters the Ultramarines fielded during the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy (which numbered 10,000 Space Marines each) instead of the ones that were created in the Second Founding (which numbered 1,000 Space Marines each).

 

Either way, the point is that Codex: Grey Knights post-dates the release of the new Horus Heresy material. Its reference to "barely four hundred" Chapters being created during the Second Founding almost certainly is a nod to the new background material that came about through the Horus Heresy series.

 

Brother Stobz, on 14 Aug 2015 - 1:29 PM, said:

Secondly; I like your earlier calculations P (I can't remember them exactly), they are more in line with the FW HH numbers and non Gav BL HH stuff. This also fits the 400 second Founding info much better, but not perfectly.

 

I believe this is the post you're referring to?

 

aura_enchanted, on 14 Aug 2015 - 2:21 PM, said:

the real question that has yet to be answered is if any of these chapters have been allowed to grow beyond the limit of 1000 or if weve been doing secret foundings from the prying eyes of the imperium. i mean whats to stop the dark angels from simply making their own chapters behind closed doors? for all we know they have founded dozens of chapters without imperial seal of approval and then simply draw one out of the hat everytime we get asked to make a founding. its hardly beyond the capacity of the dark angels and the unforgiven to do this very thing. and while its never been explicitly said its hardly beyond the realm of imagination.

 

True... but there are nonetheless processes involved in creating a new Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes that are probably beyond even the capabilities of a First Founding Chapter. For instance, I sincerely doubt the Unforgiven are able to manufacture battle-barges or Tactical Dreadnought Armour.

 

I don't want you all to get me wrong. Like Dark_Master and Brother Stobz, I'm all about the Unforgiven counting anywhere from 50,000 to 150,000 Space Marines among their ranks. At the same time, though, my personal outlook on background material involves trying to reconcile all of it as much as possible. As I can't find a way to discount Gav's revelations in his latest novel, that means I'm more or less bound to propose calculations that use twelve initial Chapters as the starting point for the Unforgiven.

 

That having been said, a lot of what I've proposed is arbitrarily conservative. Only could just as easily offer that Dark Angels gene-seed was used in twelve of the subsequent twenty-four Foundings, and that three of the twenty-five Chapters created (15% of the average number created) during each such Founding was of the Dark Angels gene-seed. That would mean forty-eight Chapters of the Unforgiven running around... a figure that sounds much more impressive now that I think about it.

[Candleshoes]

Interesting topic Phoebus.

 

The elephant in the room for me isn't so much where the Dark Angel's strength currently sits (as we will never truly know) but the question raised by Thorpe's novel (he really needs to stop showing off so much of the man behind the curtain) ie: what additional seismic event either took place before, during, or after that the seige of Terra, that would reduce such a large legion to only be able to field a dozen successors...

 

We gained the knowledge of just how big the Legion was, and we have a sense of it's current fighting strength, as well as what Luther commanded. Those losses had to of come from somewhere, as much as we don't like the number 12, and as much as we don't understand why.

 

According to Thorpe's logic, the DA suffer over 90% casualties in the HH... which puts them on footing with some of the worst devastated, alongside the Istvaan 5 survivors.

 

I feel like the question is simply, where were those losses sustained? If they received such heavy losses, the idea that "Legion building" is present becomes more and more unbelievable, and the circle of the DA background of trying to do and be too much at any given time, starts to take over. Legion building and fraternity are natural themes, it just makes me salty that by trying to explain this natural idea, Thorpe actually explains this way right out of it making sense.

[Phoebus]

That's a legitimate question, Candleshoes.

 

If there really were "barely four 400" Chapters created during the Second Founding, and if the number of Ultramarines-derived Successors found in the Apocrypha of Skaros is meant to be multiplied by 10 (reflecting the new Legion sizes and implying that the XIII Legion had been almost fully reconstituted by that time), then that means there would have been roughly 150 non-Ultramarine, non-Dark Angel Chapters newly-created Successor Chapters.

 

Again, the Space Wolves would only have been responsible for one of those, so we're down to 149 Chapters. The Salamanders almost certainly could not produce a Second Founding Chapter. The Raven Guard recouped some of their strength, but there doesn't seem to have been a way for them to have produced more Successors than those named in the Apocrypha of Davio (the Black Guard, the Defilers, and the Raptors). Now we're down to 146 Chapters.

 

It's thus left to the White Scars, the Imperial Fists, the Blood Angels, and the Iron Hands to come up with that balance.

 

There's almost no way the Fists are responsible for the preponderance of those Successor Chapters. They were already hideously understrength due to the loss of the Retribution Fleet, had gone through the Siege of Terra, and then had Dorn literally put them through a self-sacrificial gauntlet against the Iron Warriors so as to avoid having to divide themselves too much in the Second Founding.

 

The White Scars and the Blood Angels almost certainly suffered terribly during the Siege of Terra.

 

Some creative math could allow the Iron Hands to produce the preponderance of those Successor Chapters, I suppose.

 

Still, I agree with you that it's thematically difficult to reconcile the losses of the Dark Angels. Even with my original calculations, I just had a tough time seeing how less than a third of the Legion could have survived to the Second Founding. Perhaps the Warp Storm that took apart Caliban also destroyed the Legion's manpower and fleet?

[shabbadoo]

I am not sure if I am remembering this correctly, but I think there is a reference to the Dark Angels suffering catastrophic losses in some campaign or other eithe during, or shorlty after, the Horus Heresy.  No idea where that would be from though.  If there are roughtly a dozen Unforgiven Chapters, and they are somewhat above Chapter Strength, it may be that there are closer to 16 Chapters worth of  Unforgiven marines.  16,000 or so is still quite a bit.  And of course there could be more of them we don't know about.

 

Edited out one too many zeros. ;)

[Interrogator Stobz]

Too many zeros Shabbz

[Phoebus]

Something else that occurred to me, that lends credence to arguments for more Unforgiven Chapters...

 

The Imperium is not a very subtle entity when it comes to heresy, corruption, treason, etc. And it's not like its various divisions of authority are that concerned with having indisputable evidence of wrong-doing. If the High Lords of Terra suspect the Unforgiven of "Legion-building", then there must be a very good reason as to why they're limiting themselves to a passive, cautious approach like not using their gene-seed that often. I don't think it would ever be politically desirable to destroy a legendary First Founding Chapter unless it was absolutely necessary, but the Imperium could have demanded Penitent Crusades, Inquisitorial oversight to ensure compliance, and/or decimation of the leadership structure. They've done nothing of the sort, much less raise arms against the Unforgiven.

 

If the Dark Angels and their Successors only constituted something like 1.5% of the total Adeptus Astartes force (not that even the Imperium itself knows just how many Chapters of Space Marines are out there), any of the above punishments would be feasible. Maybe the reason why the High Lords handcuff themselves in this case is because the Unforgiven are a far greater force than 17-20 Chapters, and turning against them publicly and violently is simply not feasible.

 

Working within the framework of there only being twelve Unforgiven Chapters (including the Dark Angels themselves) as of the Second Founding, Codex: Dark Angels (Sixth Edition) states that the High Lords didn't start turning away the Lion's gene-seed until M33 (the so-called "Missing Foundings"). One could reasonably expect more Chapters to have been produced from the Lion's gene-seed during the Third and Fourth Foundings (the ones carried out before the High Lords turned away from the Unforgiven) than any other save that of Guilliman's: theirs being the only as pure as that of the Ultramarines, with the rest (the White Scars excepted) being either prone to mutations (Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Space Wolves), or otherwise potentially unstable (Iron Hands, due to the nature and temperament of Ferrus Manus's sons following his death).

 

So, still assuming an average of 25 Chapters created per Foundings, and also assuming the Lion's gene-seed was used as much as Guilliman's for those two Foundings, the Unforgiven may very well have counted thirty or so Chapters among their ranks by the end of the Fourth Founding. Using a somewhat more favorable calculation (Dark Angels' gene-seed is only used for half the subsequent Foundings, and for only 15% of the created Chapters), the Unforgiven may have counted sixty or more Chapters by M41.

 

Sixty Chapters is not a force that could overthrow the Imperium, but perhaps that's not the point. The only time a Space Marines force that large was brought together for a single campaign in the last thousand years (besides the Thirteenth Black Crusade, of course) was to suppress the Macharian Heresy... which occurred after a period of unprecedented freedom for the Imperium to operate thusly. At most points in its history, it has probably been unfeasible to raise a force so large as to destroy sixty Chapters' worth of Space Marines.  Even more importantly, such a victory would almost certainly be pyrrhic to the extreme. If the Imperium lost half again as many Space Marines suppressing the Unforgiven, a tenth of the vaunted Adeptus Astartes would be gone. A great portion of the Imperium will have been left without its greatest defenders not just for the duration of the campaign, but for a great period of time otherwise.

Perhaps that's why the High Lords are content to exercise containment, and ignore the pleas and accusations or random Inquisitors, generals of the Astra Militarum, and the Black Templars... so long as the sons of the Lion continue to relentlessly persecute the enemies of Man.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Fear is the mind killer.

[JustShowMePictures]

I'm a hardcore fan of Dark Angels so many times I would even try to escape reality with lucid dreaming, I would be in the Rock where I would often train with Belial in the training center and help Sapphon with the Fallen torturing, but one day as I was talking to Sapphon, we went to my dormitory for a private talk. He immediately said, "You know you could live with us forever.." I gave him a confused look and he continued, "We understand that you live on earth and you REALLY wish to live here". I then said "How..How did you know?" He then giggled and said "Because we've been watching you, silly!" And the a bunch of Watchers popped up out of nowhere.

This was a dream come true and I almost cried right there. She then said, "I talked with Supreme Grandmaster Azrael and he agreed that you would be PERFECT for Deathwing, you just have to do...one thing". He then held my hand and looked deep into my eyes and said "...You have to kill yourself for the transfer to work correctly." I then gave him some questions, "How long do I have before the deal expires?" He then said "Cid said 3 months.." I added by saying "What's the most painless way?..." He giggled again, "Suicide will require pain buuut...if you want it quick...Get a gun and a nice shot to the head works.

I then agreed and he gave me a kiss on the forehead, "I know this will be tough but once it's over and done, you'll get to live here!" I then woke up and this was last week and i purchased a gun. I might actually kill myself because that dream just felt too real to be fake and my life isn't doing so grand.

[Candleshoes]

I agree with Dark_Master in the sense that the FFG Deathwatch rpg does give rough percentages of how the geneseed shakes out - and the numbers seem relatively believable for an overall framework. Using its numbers for example, the Iron Hands only have 30 successors.

 

The best thing is that DA geneseed could have been used to make many, many more chapters than we originally thought in subsequent foundings, but were just not informed of their heritage. True Unforgiven being one number of successors, and blood shared ignorant successors being another.

 

40k succession works when you don't have a lot of specifics, which is why when we start to learn some, it makes a lot of other things not make sense.

[Augustus]

That's precisely it Phoebus. We see how the Inquisition reacts to the Wolves (Going to war with them). A chapter like the DA, who seem to burn as many bridges as they could create, would also seem to be a viable target for discipline. However, so far there's been little to suggest anything worthwhile had been brought down upon them.

I feel it's their numbers which keep them afloat. Of course the DA secret legion is like the Sword of Damocles on the Imperium. But there is little obvious recourse. If it was obvious that their secret is known I don't doubt that their are Inquisitors trying to undermine their Geneseed or create some other insidious plan to fracture the Unforgiven.
 

[Gillyfish]

Another possibility occurs to me. 12 could be an accurate figure (or not), but we can assume that everything was Chaos following the Heresy - forces were scattered across the Imperium, losses were sustained in the Scouring and an accurate census of Legion strength might have been difficult or nigh on impossible. Perhaps the Chapters founded pertain to each Legion's main force strength rather than garrisons and taskforces.

 

If that is a fair assessment of the situation, the first founding might be drawn from the main forces and a supplemental founding might have been done once more accurate numbers were obtained by each Legion. That's hard to do when your homeworld has been destroyed or perhaps the Dark Angels didn't reveal the numbers of the returned?

 

There's an interesting story to be told there of a task force returning to a the Rock and trying to establish whether the Dark Angels there are friend or foe...