Heavy weapons teams

[Emprah2508]

What is the best option for a takes all squad because when I get a Leman russ I was thinking about using autocannons and three heavy bolter sponsons because I play against orks a lot and I can't make a punisher in the cadian defense force box. But I wanted heavy weapons teams that can take on most threats/armies

[morroccomole]

You can't really go wrong with autocannon teams. I bring mine in just about any list, no questions asked. Some people swear by missile launchers, but the scatter makes me nervous.

[Frater Cornelius]

Autocannons are probably the best generalist weapon out there. Good rate of fire, wounds most things on a 2 and is a legitimate threat to armour. All other weapons are either too specialized (Heavy Bolters and Mortars) or not worth the cost on a BS3 model (Rockets and Lascannon).

[Quneitra]

Autocannons are generally a good choice. They instagib T3 characters and wound T5s on a 2+, and cost the same as a heavy bolter. You can effectively use them against multiple targets.

 

Heavy Bolters are eh. One extra shot per round can be nice, but the reduced strength and range is a significant drawback. I wouldn't take any.

 

I like to take Missile Launchers; the scatter isn't that big of an issue if you're using it against crowded targets, and the krak missile leads to hilarious moments such as gibbing an assault marine on OW.

 

I haven't seen anything about lascannons, but since they're both expensive and only one shot per round, I doubt they're of any use outside Veteran and CCS HWTs.

 

Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot mortars exist. Well, they do exist, but in most cases you're better off just taking a Wyvern, which is only a slight bit more expensive than a mortar HWS for greatly increased armor, firepower, and accuracy.

[morroccomole]

Lascannons are nice when paired with orders, but that one shot each doesn't synergize with BS3 very well. They are a relatively cheap AT option to force your opponent to deal with, but it sounds like OP wants something less specialized.

[WarriorFish]

Yep, for generalist take all comers autocannons are head and shoulders above the rest. There's always something for them to shoot at competently :)

[CoffeeGrunt]

I personally quite like Lascannon teams. As has been mentioned, against the right target they can do some work. I used to use 3 on a flank to hit the Side Armour of advancing enemy units. They're really useful against Knights as the AP2 they have can do some bonus damage, and they can hit a facing that hasn't got the Ion Shield up.

[Jolemai]

Surely you'd need a Primaris Psyker with Divination to babysit a lascannon team? Or maybe that's just me not getting on with single shot lascannons without re-rolls...

[CoffeeGrunt]

Mmm, you're increasing the cost of those guns by a fair amount for a fairly minor buff that isn't the most reliable to get off...

[librisrouge]

Yeah, lascannons are great and I swear by them like other people swear by autocannons. Part of being guard though is acknowledging that our strengths come from quantity. One lascannon will miss with half of its shots, so will half the autocannon shots, but people like the consistent outlook that at least one hit will be generated. However, that extra strength matters.

 

BEHOLD, MATH:

HWS (3 teams) versus Rhino (AV11) in +5 cover (smoke, hill, etc.):

Autocannon Team - 3 hits, 1.5 glance/pen, 1 HPs damage post save AND 0% chance of killing the vehicle outright

Lascannon Team - 1.5 hits, 1.25 glance/pen, 5/6 HPs damage post save AND 13.8% chance of killing the vehicle outright

 

HWS (3 teams) versus Predator (AV13) in +5 cover (smoke, hill, etc.):

Autocannon Team - 3 hits, .25 glance/pen, 1/6 HPs damage post save AND 0% chance of killing the vehicle outright

Lascannon Team - 1.5 hits, .75 glance/pen, 1/2 HPs damage post save AND 8.3% chance of killing the vehicle outright

 

HWS (3 teams) versus Land Raider (AV14) in +5 cover (smoke, hill, etc.):

Autocannon Team - 3 hits, 0 glance/pen, 0 HPs damage post save AND 0% chance of killing the vehicle outright

Lascannon Team - 1.5 hits, .5 glance/pen, 1/6 HPs damage post save AND 2.7% chance of killing the vehicle outright

 

Other factors:

AP 2 versus AP4 - This means that terminators and centurions have to pay you attention.

S9 versus S7 - That lone marine librarian that survived your lasgun fusillade when his comrades did not. He's in for a bad day.

 

I guess I just like my general use weapons to be able to hurt anything in the game. Plus, those autocannons are only better versus the much lighter armor, and even then only when the plan is to glance them out. I rather like that 3 lascannons have an almost one in six chance of just acing a rhino, especially if that means other weapons can move onto another target instead of having to double down.

 

Of course, at the end of the day, magnets are a thing too.

[Emprah2508]

Instead of magnets I can just use the pins thus being able to use both lascannon when going against armies I know have lots armour and then switch to autocannon when I'm facing more infantry based armies

[Emicus]

Now if we only could get Multilaser HWTs...

And Librisrogue. Your math is all fine, but I believe it's important to factor in the cost of the unit as well. How many more % is the Lascannon effective than the Autocannon after cost is factored in?​ Not to mention buffs such as Prescience. And what targets you are shooting, Autocannons will wreck more Orks than Lascannons because number of shots! So it depends if you want to wreck Predators all day or not :)

[RADU LYKAN]

Funny you should mention multilaser heavy weapon teams, recently started converting some. They will count as heavy bolters for now until gw sees sense and gives us multilasers as an infantry weapon

[Frater Cornelius]

@ libis - consider that when two AC shots pen and roll double immobilized, it is wrecked as well. However small, there is a chance and it contributes to the overall percentage ;)

[elmo]

Instead of magnets I can just use the pins thus being able to use both lascannon when going against armies I know have lots armour and then switch to autocannon when I'm facing more infantry based armies

I have a vague memory of this being discussed before but being impracticable as the distance from the pin to the handles varies on different weapons so it would be almost impossible to model a figure firing them. You would have to move the pin to get the same distance.

It may just be my old man brain drifting though!

[Emprah2508]

I doesn't matter anymore because I went to my local GW and released the meta Is very marine based thus I have decided to start militarum tempestus instead as they will help my blood angels more

[march10k]

I love lascannon devastators...but I loathe lascannon HWTs...on guardsmen, even if they're vets, it's autocannons for me!

[SW1]

We're Guard why not have both? ;)

[Frater Cornelius]

If Devs could have AC, that could almost always be the premier choice. It is just a solid weapon for its price.

[march10k]

Totally agree.  If devastators could have autocannons, they might be better than lascannons.  What makes it even a question is the number...four lascannons at BS4 is reliable.  I won't put a lascannon in a tactical squad any more than I'd give a HWT one.  Eight autocannon shots, on the other hand, might actually constitute overkill, depending on the target, but I wouldn't mind...much.  I'd probably go for one lascannon dev squad and one autocannon one in a full battle company.

[Sviar]

I would take two Autocannons and one Lascannon in a three man HW squad.

[Frater Cornelius]

Mixing weapons is generally a bad idea, at least in my eyes. If you shoot at any given target, you want to maximize the effect. Mixing weapons gives you versality at the cost of efficiency. At SM levels of cost, I would understand, but IG are cheap enough to include one unit of each.

[march10k]

Yeah...a single lascannon does what for you?  At the cost of two shots that are matched to the rest of the squad?  You shouldn't shoot that squad at a land raider, and the lascannon, whenever it does manage a hit, will be overkill against a rhino...without any guarantee that the alternative of two autocannon shots wouldn't have had the same outcome!

[Shamansky]

Instead of magnets I can just use the pins thus being able to use both lascannon when going against armies I know have lots armour and then switch to autocannon when I'm facing more infantry based armies

I have a vague memory of this being discussed before but being impracticable as the distance from the pin to the handles varies on different weapons so it would be almost impossible to model a figure firing them. You would have to move the pin to get the same distance.

It may just be my old man brain drifting though!

LC's original plastic pin position is farther than AC's from gunner's end. So when i had a problem of only 3 tri-pods i just сut about 4-5 mm from lascannon to fit it to gunner's hands. But then i just bought some boxes and now i have 3 LC, 3AC, 3 ML and one heavy-bolter made of wannabe Sgt. Harker model and one more guardsman.

And there's one more thing about interchaging ac and lc. You gotta position 'spotter' crewman carefully. I used to put him in frontal half of the model's base or next to the gunner on his right. Because lascannon has battery on the right side and autocannon spits empty cases to the left.

[march10k]

Yeah, lascannons are great and I swear by them like other people swear by autocannons. Part of being guard though is acknowledging that our strengths come from quantity. One lascannon will miss with half of its shots, so will half the autocannon shots, but people like the consistent outlook that at least one hit will be generated. However, that extra strength matters.

BEHOLD, MATH:

HWS (3 teams) versus Rhino (AV11) in +5 cover (smoke, hill, etc.):

Autocannon Team - 3 hits, 1.5 glance/pen, 1 HPs damage post save AND 0% chance of killing the vehicle outright

Lascannon Team - 1.5 hits, 1.25 glance/pen, 5/6 HPs damage post save AND 13.8% chance of killing the vehicle outright

HWS (3 teams) versus Predator (AV13) in +5 cover (smoke, hill, etc.):

Autocannon Team - 3 hits, .25 glance/pen, 1/6 HPs damage post save AND 0% chance of killing the vehicle outright

Lascannon Team - 1.5 hits, .75 glance/pen, 1/2 HPs damage post save AND 8.3% chance of killing the vehicle outright

HWS (3 teams) versus Land Raider (AV14) in +5 cover (smoke, hill, etc.):

Autocannon Team - 3 hits, 0 glance/pen, 0 HPs damage post save AND 0% chance of killing the vehicle outright

Lascannon Team - 1.5 hits, .5 glance/pen, 1/6 HPs damage post save AND 2.7% chance of killing the vehicle outright

Other factors:

AP 2 versus AP4 - This means that terminators and centurions have to pay you attention.

S9 versus S7 - That lone marine librarian that survived your lasgun fusillade when his comrades did not. He's in for a bad day.

I guess I just like my general use weapons to be able to hurt anything in the game. Plus, those autocannons are only better versus the much lighter armor, and even then only when the plan is to glance them out. I rather like that 3 lascannons have an almost one in six chance of just acing a rhino, especially if that means other weapons can move onto another target instead of having to double down.

Of course, at the end of the day, magnets are a thing too.

I'd be interested to know the numbers sans cover, and most importantly, the numbers vs AV12, which is probably the critical AV in the game. 11 and under is easy, 13 is rare, and 14 is in a class of its own...if you're not rocking melta, then you're probably not making a dent! But AV12, it's both common, and hard-but-doable for a wide variety of weapons...and autocannons do to AV12 what lascannons do to AV14 (except for that AP2 bonus).

Now if we only could get Multilaser HWTs...

And Librisrogue. Your math is all fine, but I believe it's important to factor in the cost of the unit as well. How many more % is the Lascannon effective than the Autocannon after cost is factored in?​ Not to mention buffs such as Prescience. And what targets you are shooting, Autocannons will wreck more Orks than Lascannons because number of shots! So it depends if you want to wreck Predators all day or not

The cost is one thing, and lascannons are prohibitively expensive, but more important is the chance of at least stripping one HP, and preferably at least getting 'crew shaken.' The difference between a 1/1000 chance of blowing the target up with a single shot and a 0/1000 chance doesn't interest me much. Even lascannons get most of their kills by grinding off hull points one at a time.

Funny you should mention multilaser heavy weapon teams, recently started converting some. They will count as heavy bolters for now until gw sees sense and gives us multilasers as an infantry weapon

We'll get multilaser heavy weapons teams when space marines get man-portable autocannons...as in, never!